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On 7/24/2020 at 2:06 AM, Whomst'd've said:

Also this is more of a wish but I'll throw it out there anyway, have the turret size/diameter be based on gun size and the number of guns in that turret. If your confused look at the King George V class battleships (ww2). 

100% percent needs to be done

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Target speed penalty should removed in favor or a penalty utilizing the rate of change in speed/bearing of the targeted ship. This will mean ships will have to be maneuvering to avoid fire, not sailin

Barbettes that can actually be placed anywhere instead of 2 or three randomly specific places. 

Various design issues, ranging from slots (especially slots on the hood model, US Iowa model, japanese supercruiser model and some other models) being unable to be used creating weird gaps or design f

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Regarding gunnery: especially in the pre- and early-dreadnought era, fast moving ships--even on unchanging courses--were indeed harder to hit. Why? Because the range is changing faster. Unless you're on parallel equivelocity courses (or starting from the same origin), the range is changing nonlinearly as ships pass one another. This requires constant nonlinear adjustment, not just in calculation, but in physical reaiming of the turret. When ships are moving faster, this process must be done faster lest the error in "the range I'm aiming to hit" and "the range the target ship is at" becomes out-of-hand.

The idea behind "speed is armor" was a huge influence on the design of the British Navy through the early 1900's via 1st Sea Lord Jackie Fisher, inventor of the Battlecruiser, HMS Dreadnaught, etc.

Point being: with modern (1930+ era) computers and centralized fire control systems, the effect of speed on targeting is trivial. Before that? Absolutely not.

Edited by neph
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^ I would suggest "Speed is armour" proved a flawed concept even IN WW1.

Need only look not just at Jutland, but even before that with the twin battles of Coronel and Falklands. The reports following the defeat of the German squadron commented on the accuracy of German gunnery of even the lighter guns out to ranges as high as 14,000yds against the BCs. Fact was the BC's armour was sufficient for those armaments, and indeed it was with an eye to defeating Armoured Cruisers (such as the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau) the BCs were designed. They proved extremely good at doing exactly that with next to no damage in return.

It wasn't they weren't hit, it was the actual armour was sufficient to defeat the shells that hit them. Come Jutland they were also hit, but by shells their armour didn't always defeat. Somewhat unsurprisingly perhaps, it turns out that "armour is armour" while speed is hope, LOL.

Regardless of relative courses, the change of range IS linear, it's just the line is a function of trigonometry, so of sin, cosine or tan depending on what you're dealing with.

The biggest difficulty earlier systems struggled with was calculating accurately the speed and course of the target AND being able to generate a solution where your own ship's course and speed were factored in and used to train the guns automatically. Faster simply means a larger lead distance but it's no more complicated than that.

Changing speed and/or course are more important when it comes to difficulty of gunnery, and in that sense more speed is better as it also gives greater scope to achieve those things to meaningful degrees between salvoes from an enemy.

In practical terms, if I fire a few ranging shots thinking you're at one range and doing 20 knots then my fall of shot suggests in fact you're slightly closer on a different course at 23 knots, that's going to be pretty clear pretty quickly. What matters then is how your speed and course VARY, not whether we're on parallel courses.

Well that and the ability of your systems to deliver shells to whatever you've determined is the appropriate bit of ocean your target ship will be occupying when they arrive.

One's a matter of calculation, the other is a matter of effective delivery. Systems evolved so as to get much better at BOTH, which is what's necessary.

But I think to say speed makes things more difficult is too basic. If anything, I think the game does a poor job of punishing very LOW speed yet that's in fact what was shown to be true over and over and over. You could say they're the same which indeed they are EXCEPT it highlights it's how the target's location changes from the estimation that really matters. A stationary target isn't changing it at all, and a system that manages your own ship's movement effectively will very quickly start to straddle a stationary target and, most importantly, not really lose its accuracy.

Anyway, probably banged on too much, lol.



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Please stop with the BS about speed (seeing it has been exhaustively discussed). Speed is a variable. The difficulty is to account for rapid changes in it or lack of accurate speed calculation to begin with. Absolutely nothing to do with the value. Go watch Drachinifel's video on gunnery. Not once is high speed mentioned as a problem.

Also Jackie Fisher's statement is about the concept of a BC, fast enough to escape from anything with guns bigger than it is armored against (i.e. an actual dreadnaught). 

Edited by madham82
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On 9/18/2021 at 9:54 PM, Steeltrap said:

Regardless of relative courses, the change of range IS linear, it's just the line is a function of trigonometry, so of sin, cosine or tan depending on what you're dealing with.

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. The change in heading is terribly non-linear, my mistake

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On 9/21/2021 at 11:45 AM, neph said:

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. The change in heading is terribly non-linear, my mistake

Hey, no trouble.

As @madham82has commented, the gunnery problem is most affected by CHANGES in the relevant numbers. There's nothing more difficult about hitting a target doing 30 knots as one doing 10 IF their speeds and courses remain the same.

@TAKTCOM I would suggest your post inadvertently makes exactly MY point.

It wasn't the SPEED that made it so hard to hit, it was the "flank speed to full stop, radical turns and intermittent smoke screens". In other words, the ability to CHANGE the relevant factors (course, speed, even visibility) by substantial margins in periods of time that meant shells in the air wouldn't hit her even IF they'd been accurate when fired.

Put it this way, had she been at 2,000yds does anyone think those manoeuvres would've mattered much?

Granted, a smaller, faster and more manoeuvrable ship has greater SCOPE to make significant changes, but make no mistake it's the CHANGES, not the values per se, that are what makes it harder to generate a meaningful gunnery solution and hence more difficult to hit.

Not even sure why we're discussing it as it's all very well known stuff, lol.


Edited by Steeltrap
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On 9/20/2021 at 5:32 AM, Skeksis said:

You're right, this 'super' smashes every ship no matter what speed they're doing!!!

Curious, have you built one yet with the new update? 

No, haven't touched the game for a long while.

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I have a suggestion: I think it would be a good idea to add another level of damage.

Right now you have heavy, medium and light damage. I think a "superficial" level with reduced cost would also make a lot of sense.

Yesterday I had a fight with a 1920 CA that took a whooping 14 damage, little enough that in-mission it was still listed as 100% structure. But after the mission it was counted as lightly damaged and cost 8.3 million to repair, thankfully for just a single month.

I think having to pay about a third of the price of the ship value in repairs for what amounts to little more than a scratched-up paint-job is rather on the ridiculous side. Having a superficial damage level for say... anything above 97% hull integrity would be a long way to make the later period campaigns feel both more realistic and less frustrating.

Edited by Norbert Sattler
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