A Controversial Subject.

[HachiRoku]

35 minutes ago, staun said:

And yeth he debate as you do. You claim to have the fact. What you say is the truth. Ppl that disagree you basicly Call stupid, in a hope they will be silent ore ppl buy your statement. Yeth you never respond in a fact base on ppl that challange your ideas.

ok I am quite sick of arguing people like you and him. I must be a very stupid person because I do not have a single idea what this mean. If you are so smart please translate what the hell he is saying to me.

 

 

 

I said: DLC ships have no economic value to the game. A game that is based around ship crafting and economy. 

His response: Crafted ships cost resources that has to be earned off sinking other player ships, there losses can be quantified in ”economic value to the game”.   

I do not have any idea what that has to do with anything. Last time I played crafted ships cost woods etc....

 

I said: A player that does not own the DLC ships is forced to play the game more than a player that owns the DLC for shallow water (Port)battles. Capturing an AI ship is forcing players to play more than DLC owners.

His reponse: Once a DLC is lost, that player will just sail another ship, no difference in “more game” time played. Part 2, there are no AI Herc’s or Requin’s to be captured, AIs capture anything, your statement is actually null -in-void, doesn’t say anything.

Again, his reply has nothing to do with what I said. When a DLC ship is lost you just reedeem a new one. No need to sail anywhere, craft anything or gather materials. P2W with a 24 hour timer or not. 

 

 

I said: Ship Building and logistics are part of RVR and the core of the game.

His Reponse: This statement has nothing to with the topic, it’s like saying the “sun will rise tomorrow”, of cause it’s correct but its an abstraction, even a distraction from the topic, so it doesn’t count

Read the topic and you will see he is saying random nonsense. He says my point is off topic but it is the actual topic. 

On 12/18/2018 at 7:55 PM, HachiRoku said:

If you read it you would see I defended those ships from being P2W, OP and being able to join PBs because If someone buys a product IT MUST be able to take part in all activities just like admin said. I believe they break RVR ship building logistics (For people that do not know, Logistics is sailing resources and building ships in ports with shipyards close to the war. NOT redeeming a ship in a Freetown).

@admin makes the bad argument that I as someone that does not own the dlc have the time to grind surprises for port battles. Here is what I have to say about that. For me to grind 5 suprises it would take me 2-3 hours of searching and finding AI ships to attack and capture in open sea. I would make 60 euros in 3 hours. Why does someone that pays 10 euro get unlimited access to ships and I have to grind them????? I was defending the ships and admin unintentionally made an argument that DLC ships are P2W. Not because they are OP or whatever. It is because they have no value in game. I did mention this to @Hethwill the Red Duke a few months ago but since admin is still using the same argument he must not have read it.

The problem is that DLC ships are more convient than craftable ships and convenience is what makes them P2W. That is the definition of P2W. You have no argument there.

10 Euros is how much I spend on smokes everyday.  I would say 5 Herc permits for 10 euro is more than enough value. That is 2 euro per permit and those ships could be made captureable and CRAFTABLE by MATERIALS! This is impossible now because people have bought the DLC. I do not think that can be changed anymore. It is my oppinion that the DLC model is completely flawed in terms of game design. I am sorry I say it but YOU ALL know I am right. 

.

I said: XP boosters are also pay to win since you get the better equipment sooner than a player that doesn't buy the boosters. You gain an advantage.

His response: Experience, no-how, will boost xp faster than any bought booster, bought booster are for noobs who get nowhere fast, not “sooner”.   

This is his only point that makes sense but he is wrong. There is no evidence to the claim that people with more skill do not buy XP boosters online. It is a simple fact that 50% more XP is 50% faster level up. 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by HachiRoku

[HachiRoku]

@staun but if you are so smart you can try breaking down what I said. 

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

hehe. You are completely oblivious to what we are talking about. OMFG I don't know if you are dumb or a troll man but I do find it interesting that you spell Know-how no-how. 

<whisper> Don't... do... that! When you attack someone like that everyone thinks you're at the end of your wits. You risk deleting all the sense you usually make. Hachi, pls!</whisper>

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

As you can see, P2W P4C (pay for convenience) is forcing players to do more work than players that own the DLC.

I heartily agree!

I must insist on separating p2w and p4c. If you chuck everything in the p2w (bad, bad, bad in my view) we will cross communicate and never speak the same language.

p2w - bad

p4c - fine

The write-up you quote mentions WoT and their attention to selling p4c but avoiding p2w. They had gold ammo for real cash only at one point and were rightly accused of p2w. They made all the competitive equipment available for non prem players but prem guys got there faster <- This is acceptable in my opinion.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, jodgi said:

I heartily agree!

I must insist on separating p2w and p4c. If you chuck everything in the p2w (bad, bad, bad in my view) we will cross communicate and never speak the same language.

p2w - bad

p4c - fine

There is no difference man.....

Less playtime(10 clicks and you have a new herc with medium cannons in port)=More convenient. 

More playtime (sailing resouses for hours, farming woods for days, and getting permits for hours)=Less convenient

You are 100% correct but.... What side in a war generally wins and looses? I would say the side that has more convenience. That means convenience is pay to win right?

convenience

/kənˈviːnɪəns/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the state of being able to proceed with something without difficulty.

   "services should be run to suit the convenience of customers, not of staff"

   synonyms:

   benefit, use, good, comfort, ease, enjoyment, satisfaction "a shower and toilet were installed for the convenience of swimmers"

    

[staun]

26 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

ok I am quite sick of arguing people like you and him. I must be a very stupid person because I do not have a single idea what this mean. If you are so smart please translate what the hell he is saying to me.

 

 

 

I said: DLC ships have no economic value to the game. A game that is based around ship crafting and economy. 

His response: Crafted ships cost resources that has to be earned off sinking other player ships, there losses can be quantified in ”economic value to the game”.   

I do not have any idea what that has to do with anything.

 

I said: A player that does not own the DLC ships is forced to play the game more than a player that owns the DLC for shallow water (Port)battles. Capturing an AI ship is forcing players to play more than DLC owners.

His reponse: Once a DLC is lost, that player will just sail another ship, no difference in “more game” time played. Part 2, there are no AI Herc’s or Requin’s to be captured, AIs capture anything, your statement is actually null -in-void, doesn’t say anything.

Again, his reply has nothing to do with what I said. When a DLC ship is lost you just reedeem a new one. No need to sail anywhere, craft anything or gather materials. P2W with a 24 hour timer or not. 

 

 

I said: Ship Building and logistics are part of RVR and the core of the game.

His Reponse: This statement has nothing to with the topic, it’s like saying the “sun will rise tomorrow”, of cause it’s correct but its an abstraction, even a distraction from the topic, so it doesn’t count

Read the topic and you will see he is saying random nonsense. He says my point is off topic but it is the actual topic. 

.

I said: XP boosters are also pay to win since you get the better equipment sooner than a player that doesn't buy the boosters. You gain an advantage.

His response: Experience, no-how, will boost xp faster than any bought booster, bought booster are for noobs who get nowhere fast, not “sooner”.   

This is his only point that makes sense but he is wrong. There is no evidence to the claim that people with more skill do not buy XP boosters online. It is a simple fact that 50% more XP is 50% fast level up. 

 

Well it is not my job to translated other ppl ore explain them. Think we just should start with my post to you.

I claimed your post about making Dlc permit is the biggest P2W I seen in a long time. Try to answer with a simple yes ore no, based on your idea.

1: To buy permit for real money gives acces ships others don’t have.

2: If I want to spend more money on the Dlc ship, I actually for money can craft a lot more Dlc, than I can with the current system.

3 Permits can be used as either currency in game ore by gift on stream, to pay players for favors, and thereby being a Black market money.

Think if you have to say yes to all 3, well then you just want P2W, But not for those that can afford a little, But are ready to spend big.

You claim 50% is a against Dlc, and ask why the should suffer. My question is: Does that not make 50% for Dlc? Why should the suffor and not have a gameplay they like, just to please the other 50%?

Ps: personally I like that I posted on what is P2W more than your difinition. Naval action is a skill game, I like that. Tell me that with the Dlc ship skills dosent matter, they would defeat all other ships. Then you have my vote to remove them.

Edited December 19, 2018 by staun

[staun]

8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

@staun but if you are so smart you can try breaking down what I said. 

Oh boy, I am smart. But that not the issue here. You made a post abouth how to make Dlc work, isent it fair to challange you on it?  My knowledge is that the fewest things start perfect.

[HachiRoku]

21 minutes ago, staun said:

Well it is not my job to translated other ppl ore explain them. Think we just should start with my post to you.

I claimed your post about making Dlc permit is the biggest P2W I seen in a long time. Try to answer with a simple yes ore no, based on your idea.

1: To buy permit for real money gives acces ships others don’t have.

2: If I want to spend more money on the Dlc ship, I actually for money can craft a lot more Dlc, than I can with the current system.

3 Permits can be used as either currency in game ore by gift on stream, to pay players for favors, and thereby being a Black market money.

Think if you have to say yes to all 3, well then you just want P2W, But not for those that can afford a little, But are ready to spend big.

You claim 50% is a against Dlc, and ask why the should suffer. My question is: Does that not make 50% for Dlc? Why should the suffor and not have a gameplay they like, just to please the other 50%?

1: That is what we currently have. I am calling that p2w. My suggestion is that the redeemable ships be turned into permits to craft. Once DLC ships are being build in ports they are content other players do not have BUT they are not faster to "craft"(redeem) and free in terms of materials and Labor hours. Ships being unlimited in permits is irrelevant to their p2w status since they are not easier to obtain. 

2: You can craft more ships with more money true but it will cost you more ingame time because you are sailing material and building the ships. You will not breck the economy because crafted in game ships permits have no relevance to logistics. Crafting 10 hercs will cost you exactly the same amount of 10 suprises. I see no issue with that. 

3. Incorrect. Black market money is tax free. You pay taxes on steam and as I pointed out in 2, permits do not effect the logistics and crafting aspect in naval action. Only admiralty. There is nothing wrong with trading on steam and you the only way you could abuse it is to send someone money that lives in a country where the DLC costs less. I do not know if this is still possible and its is also not that common. This is something minor that would affect gamelabs income but not really the ingame econmy.  

Edited December 19, 2018 by HachiRoku

[jodgi]

9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

What side in a war generally wins and looses? I would say the side that has more convenience. That means convenience is pay to win right?

I think that line of reasoning is stretching it a bit too far.

[HachiRoku]

8 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I think that line of reasoning is stretching it a bit too far.

synonyms:

benefit, use, good, comfort, ease, enjoyment, satisfaction

 

These things have nothing to do with player moral and their willingness to attack a shallow water port day after day after day? Just imagine a war between non DLC players and DLC players. What side would most likly win the war if both sides had the same skill? I would argue the side that gets sick of crafting and preparing ships for hours everyday to replace the ships they lost. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Hethwill]

46 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

nah the hired chef is pay to win

an alt is  just someone cooking two different meals

Nope. It is an Alt.

No matter how you put it, the convenience of playing with an alt... or 2...or 3....or 4...9...12....20 !...

And you can tell the guest how awesome the banquet was, like royalty grade.

Even 1 alt is 1 alt too much. Play clean.

[staun]

4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

1: That is what we currently have. I am calling that p2w. My suggestion is that the redeemable ships be turned into permits to craft. Once DLC ships are being build in ports they are content other players do not have BUT they are not faster to "craft"(redeemand) free in terms of materials and Labor hours. Ships being unlimited in permits is irrelevant to their p2w status since they are not easier to optain. 

So it is a yes.

2: You can craft more ships with more money true but it will cost you more ingame time because you are sailing material and building the ships. You will not breck the economy because crafted in game ships permits have no relevance to logistics. Crafting 10 hercs will cost you exactly the same amount of 10 suprises. I see no issue with that. 

So it is a yes.

3. Incorrect. Black market money is tax free. You pay taxes on steam and as I pointed out in 2, permits do not effect the logistics and crafting aspect in naval action. Only admiralty. There is nothing wrong with trading on steam and you the only way you could abuse it is to send someone money that lives in a country where the DLC costs less. I do not know if this is still possible and its is also not that common. This is something minor that would affect gamelabs income but not really the ingame econmy.  

Are you actually trying to answer ore just talk around. I make it simple. Can I with your Idea in game trade a couple of permits for lets say dbl from  guy,, If we make them  account bound, can I via Steam give them to a player as a gift?

Whats yout answer on the 50 50 question?

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Nope. It is an Alt.

No matter how you put it, the convenience of playing with an alt... or 2...or 3....or 4...9...12....20 !...

And you can tell the guest how awesome the banquet was, like royalty grade.

Even 1 alt is 1 alt too much. Play clean.

in alts defense they are more work in terms of human input. Alts do not produce ships out of thin air.

[staun]

1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Nope. It is an Alt.

No matter how you put it, the convenience of playing with an alt... or 2...or 3....or 4...9...12....20 !...

And you can tell the guest how awesome the banquet was, like royalty grade.

Even 1 alt is 1 alt too much. Play clean.

What? When I said the admiralty dlc was crap, because of alts. I think your response was that alts was there own char. Has that changed since that?

 

[staun]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

in alts defense they are more work in terms of human input. Alts do not produce ships out of thin air.

But they give acces to more Lh. Isent that P2W to?

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, staun said:

What? When I said the admiralty dlc was crap, because of alts. I think your response was that alts was there own char. Has that changed since that?

 

Nope. Still the same. Play clean.

 

 

[staun]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Nope. Still the same. Play clean.

 

We are not all the romantic as you are. Some of us are  bastards. Should the game with a DLc like the admiralty not be better than an alt, so ppl dont se any idea of having an alt? Ore should a game even be build so it is an advantage to have an alt?

Edited December 19, 2018 by staun

[Capn Rocko]

I paid $40 for the base game and I feel like I have won. gg 

[Grundgemunkey]

5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

in alts defense they are more work in terms of human input. Alts do not produce ships out of thin air.

cmon Hachi ... you know Hethwill will defend the game and the devs ,, no matter what against criticism .... one minute hes all for  longs sails and crafting  without short cuts of any type  the next hes trying to justify DLC ships

hes a living contradiction when it comes to NA

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, staun said:

12 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

1: That is what we currently have. I am calling that p2w. My suggestion is that the redeemable ships be turned into permits to craft. Once DLC ships are being build in ports they are content other players do not have BUT they are not faster to "craft"(redeemand) free in terms of materials and Labor hours. Ships being unlimited in permits is irrelevant to their p2w status since they are not easier to optain. 

So it is a yes.

2: You can craft more ships with more money true but it will cost you more ingame time because you are sailing material and building the ships. You will not breck the economy because crafted in game ships permits have no relevance to logistics. Crafting 10 hercs will cost you exactly the same amount of 10 suprises. I see no issue with that. 

So it is a yes.

3. Incorrect. Black market money is tax free. You pay taxes on steam and as I pointed out in 2, permits do not effect the logistics and crafting aspect in naval action. Only admiralty. There is nothing wrong with trading on steam and you the only way you could abuse it is to send someone money that lives in a country where the DLC costs less. I do not know if this is still possible and its is also not that common. This is something minor that would affect gamelabs income but not really the ingame econmy.

Are you actually trying to answer ore just talk around. I make it simple. Can I with your Idea in game trade a couple of permits for lets say dbl from  guy,, If we make them  account bound, can I via Steam give them to a player as a gift?

Whats yout answer on the 50 50 question?

1: and 2: No they are not. P2W is less player work over more player work. What I suggest is that DLC owner do the same amout of work as none dlc owners. That would not be pay to win. If you fail to understand this I am sorry I cannot explain it any simpler. 

3: I answered your question. You can make as many permits as you want all day long. You still need to make the actual ships ingame with matierals. You will need to sail the mats etc. If the stats on those ships are no OP it is 100% irrelevant to how those ship permits were obtained because you had to craft them with raw resource. Do you understand now?

 

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, staun said:

We are not all the romantic as you are. Some of us are  bastards. Should the game with a DLc like the admiralty not be better than an alt, so ppl dont se any idea of having an ant? Ore should a game even be build so it is an advantage to have an alt?

 it is a game. Whatever gives you fun. We just sharing opinions and experiences.

I like the age of sail experience that na provides. My rhythm is slow, age of sail slow.

[HachiRoku]

8 minutes ago, staun said:

But they give acces to more Lh. Isent that P2W to?

Yes it is. I agree. I just said alts are better than the DLC model because they do require more player mats but when someone is right I will not argue against that. You come up with a solution to that problem and I will have your back. 

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

cmon Hachi ... you know Hethwill will defend the game and the devs ,, no matter what against criticism .... one minute hes all for  longs sails and crafting  without short cuts of any type  the next hes trying to justify DLC ships

hes a living contradiction when it comes to NA

Some guys don't care for ECO. I did learn to accept that.

Not my game, but hey... whatever. Sailing NPC captures doesn't require crafting anyway.

And DLC ships has nothing to do with lengthy sails or not.

I mean... guys...

DLC is not going away. What part is hard to get ?

 

[HachiRoku]

4 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

cmon Hachi ... you know Hethwill will defend the game and the devs ,, no matter what against criticism .... one minute hes all for  longs sails and crafting  without short cuts of any type  the next hes trying to justify DLC ships

hes a living contradiction when it comes to NA

I am just saying they are the better evil. I am not defending him or them. He as openly agreed with me that they are not great since they are redeemable. He also says requins pirate rig is op. 

[staun]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

1: and 2: No they are not. P2W is less player work over more player work. What I suggest is that DLC owner do the same amout of work as none dlc owners. That would not be pay to win. If you fail to understand this I am sorry I cannot explain it any simpler. 

3: I answered your question. You can make as many permits as you want all day long. You still need to make the actual ships ingame with matierals. You will need to sail the mats etc. If the stats on those ships are no OP it is 100% irrelevant to how those ship permits were obtained because you had to craft them with raw resource. Do you understand now?

 

1 2 is your definition. Go read a lot of the postin this forum. What ppl complaint about is. Redeem, acces to a ship nobody ells have and it is op. Your solution dosent solve that.

3 But I can offer a guy, lets say 2 of my 5 perments to craft the ships for me. Isent that P2W.

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Sailing NPC captures doesn't require crafting anyway.

oi! I told you that is no justification. Capturing ships cost time, redeeming them doesn't.