A Controversial Subject.

[HachiRoku]

32 minutes ago, Christendom said:

I draw the line on P2W ships turning into a necessity to win port battles.  Which up until recently, they were.  This is an unacceptable form of P2W and it's like ruins games.  Requins being allowed in shallow port battles effectively ruined the shallow water scene for months.  It's entry into deep water battles also disgusted many a player and was a contributing factor to them quitting RVR and/or leaving the came completely.

NO DLC SHIPS IN PBs EVER!

So TLDR - Don't smoke Hachi.  Don't post clan roster screen shots.  DLC = P2W.  P2W is cool, just not in port battles.

P2W is unacceptable in a game I payed for. Please never say something like that. P2W destroys competitive gaming and if there is no competitive gaming I will not play. 

[Hethwill]

Step 3. review sail forces. to dust.

it affects every ship including DLC ships in very odd ways, and we manage to do things that ( without neutralizing sails ) would be nigh impossible on a square rigger, for example.

Hercules being a light build, short length, narrow beam, is really good with such mods/books.

 

[staun]

I just tryied to google p2w in game and came  up with this one:

TOP DEFINITION

 

pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If we should go with that, well guess we only can have paint and flags in the game. That is if we take a hardcore approce to the P2W. But from what I so far have seen, the 2 ships havent tipped any balance, so skilled player cant still win, ore players get an sigfinicant advantage. Would actually with the new br think a fleet of crafteble ships would do fair against them in a pb. But not sure. The only one i can remember was when Havoc was Dutch and killed a gb fleet in a pb, As I remember havoc was the only one on Herc.

 

[HachiRoku]

10 minutes ago, Porpoise said:

I have an idea how this could work

Owner of a DLC can redeem 1 permit or 1 note for Herc/Req per day. If the player decides to craft a DLC ship using materials and labour then these ships should be allowed to participate in PBs. If you decide to redeem one (for free) using note then they should be banned from these events. It is simple. 1/2 of the RVR is supplies and gathering them costs time (capturing ships, building ships, etc.). Redeeming a ship costs you nothing. Imagine what would happen if there is a 2nd rate DLC for example ...

Its not a solution because open sea pvp is simplified scaled down rvr. RVR is nothing more than pvp in a port. 

[Powderhorn]

Sail force mods are definitely something that bear scrutiny, as Hethwill says.  As Christendom says, you should smoke less.  You'll save about 500 a year, and mitigate some risks of long-term health effects, not limited to high blood pressure, a variety of respiratory diseases, and of course, the ubiquitous increase of risk for cancer.

As far as the redeemable thing goes, keep in mind that the store page for the DLC ships already lays out the parameters for them:  Choose your woods 1x/day, go forth and fight.  I believe Game-Labs is bound by that, as people bought them under that description.

[Hethwill]

OR...

or...

After full release, Victory Mark can be exchanged for a Hercules/Xebec.

 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, staun said:

I just tryied to google p2w in game and came  up with this one:

TOP DEFINITION

 

pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

If we should go with that, well guess we only can have paint and flags in the game. That is if we take a hardcore approce to the P2W. But from what I so far have seen, the 2 ships havent tipped any balance, so skilled player cant still win, ore players get an sigfinicant advantage. Would actually with the new br think a fleet of crafteble ships would do fair against them in a pb. But not sure. The only one i can remember was when Havoc was Dutch and killed a gb fleet in a pb, As I remember havoc was the only one on Herc.

 

We are not arguing about what p2w is man. We all know what it is. What I say is 100% correct and everyone agrees with me. People are disagreeing about the solution. 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

We are not arguing about what p2w is man. We all know what it is. What I say is 100% correct and everyone agrees with me. People are disagreeing about the solution. 

Do we need a solution for the Herc?  With light frigates in the shallows, the Herc is just another light 5th with some advantages...some disadvantages.  A skilled player can beat it.  The Req, IMO, needs to be a 5th also and take a nerf on sail force and Mods use.

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

OR...

or...

After full release, Victory Mark can be exchanged for a Hercules/Xebec.

 

Please tell me. I have no idea about Xebecs. How fast were they close hauled. I refuse to believe that those ships are that fast into the wind in real life. 

[Hethwill]

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

How fast were they close hauled. I refuse to believe that those ships are that fast into the wind in real life. 

No ship was as fast as we have them ( with mods and books ). And Xebec can be really scary fast.

 

[HachiRoku]

 

8 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

Sail force mods are definitely something that bear scrutiny, as Hethwill says.  As Christendom says, you should smoke less.  You'll save about 500 a year, and mitigate some risks of long-term health effects, not limited to high blood pressure, a variety of respiratory diseases, and of course, the ubiquitous increase of risk for cancer.

As far as the redeemable thing goes, keep in mind that the store page for the DLC ships already lays out the parameters for them:  Choose your woods 1x/day, go forth and fight.  I believe Game-Labs is bound by that, as people bought them under that description.

Not exactly, Admin said they could make them craftable by law I believe. I do not want to misquote him. 

[Christendom]

19 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

P2W is unacceptable in a game I payed for. Please never say something like that. P2W destroys competitive gaming and if there is no competitive gaming I will not play. 

I am fine with P2W DLCs to continue to fund development, which is what the Herc and Requin are.  Let's not pretend this is a black and white issue, it's not.  

DLC ships having a minor...yet mostly positive impact on the OW.  Cool
DLC ships having a major and mostly negative impact on RVR.  Not Cool.  

There is room for DLC ships and still competitive game play.  To expand on the initial point of your topic - 

DLC ships could be limited in quality and ship slots.  Basic 3/5s with no trim or even the green quality ships with random trims like AI ships currently have
Not redeemed in free towns
Only allow certain books
Only allow 1 of each type in a players inventory.  
Cannot enter RVR

All the above can be implemented while having a P2W system that provides easy access to ships, doesn't hamper the "competitive" players like yourself and still provides an income stream to the devs.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

No ship was as fast as we have them. And Xebec can be really scary fast.

 

lets say the Endymion was given a 10% buff ingame. What would the requins buff be relative to real life. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail#/media/File:Points_of_sail.svg

Look at this image. 

Endymions speed in real life would be 5-6 knots at angle B

Endys speed ingame would be about 10 knots at angle B

Requins real life speed would be?????

Requins ingame speed 15 knots.

I have not idea about the exact endymions speed so correct if I am wrong. I just want to know how the profiles scale in game and real life to eachother. 

[Powderhorn]

Quote

About premium consumable vessels.
Premium ships cannot be captured by players or traded. You can request this vessel from the admiralty once a day as long as you dont have the same vessel already in your docks. You will be able to request the frame and planking wood type when ordering a ship. Admiralty requests for this ship will be completed instantly.
DLC will appear in your redeemable list after you dock to any port.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

I am fine with P2W DLCs to continue to fund development, which is what the Herc and Requin are.  Let's not pretend this is a black and white issue, it's not.  

DLC ships having a minor...yet mostly positive impact on the OW.  Cool
DLC ships having a major and mostly negative impact on RVR.  Not Cool.  

There is room for DLC ships and still competitive game play.  To expand on the initial point of your topic - 

DLC ships could be limited in quality and ship slots.  Basic 3/5s with no trim or even the green quality ships with random trims like AI ships currently have
Not redeemed in free towns
Only allow certain books
Only allow 1 of each type in a players inventory.  
Cannot enter RVR

All the above can be implemented while having a P2W system that provides easy access to ships, doesn't hamper the "competitive" players like yourself and still provides an income stream to the devs.

So punish people for buying DLC?

[staun]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

The problem is that DLC ships are more convient than craftable ships and convenience is what makes them P2W. That is the definition of P2W. You have no argument there.

No where close to the deffinition I found, and one i actually think makes sence.

10 Euros is how much I spend on smokes everyday.  I would say 5 Herc permits for 10 euro is more than enough value. That is 2 euro per permit and those ships could be made captureable and CRAFTABLE by MATERIALS! This is impossible now because people have bought the DLC. I do not think that can be changed anymore. It is my oppinion that the DLC model is completely flawed in terms of game design. I am sorry I say it but YOU ALL know I am right. 

Buy permit that other don't have acces to is the closes that get to the definition on P2W, but that you accept.

 

No, not everybody dos agree with you. Just because you state that as a fact, well donen't nessesary make it the truth. I think it is fine you to want to argue for removal of DLC content that is P2W. Just think it sound a bit hollow when you idea about permit would be it. In fact even more since I for money with your idea can make as many ships I want, as long as I can get lh for it. As it is today I only can get one ship a day. So the bigger vallet I have the bigger my advantage. I would be able to make 5 ore 10 ships a day. Furthermore the P2W isent just ships, I think it is fine to want a debate about dlc

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Christendom said:

I am fine with P2W DLCs to continue to fund development, which is what the Herc and Requin are.  Let's not pretend this is a black and white issue, it's not.  

DLC ships having a minor...yet mostly positive impact on the OW.  Cool
DLC ships having a major and mostly negative impact on RVR.  Not Cool.  

There is room for DLC ships and still competitive game play.  To expand on the initial point of your topic - 

DLC ships could be limited in quality and ship slots.  Basic 3/5s with no trim or even the green quality ships with random trims like AI ships currently have
Not redeemed in free towns
Only allow certain books
Only allow 1 of each type in a players inventory.  
Cannot enter RVR

All the above can be implemented while having a P2W system that provides easy access to ships, doesn't hamper the "competitive" players like yourself and still provides an income stream to the devs.

Thats not true. I didnt say it was black and white man. You are smarter than that. I said that they are p2w as they are but not if the core of the problem is fixed. 

DLC ships have 0 positive influence at all in opensea. Don't pretend that we have more pvp now.

Your problem is that you think there is competitive gameplay between any 2 ships ingame. There is not. A Herc is p2w against everyship that she can sink and not p2w against every ship she will sink to.

A Trinco is not competitive against against another ship but another trinco. Same goes to every other ship in the game. Why do you think duel rooms only allowed 1v1s of the same ship? Suprise will smash a herc and a requin everyday in battles. 

[HachiRoku]

6 minutes ago, staun said:

No, not everybody dos agree with you. Just because you state that as a fact, well donen't nessesary make it the truth. I think it is fine you to want to argue for removal of DLC content that is P2W. Just think it sound a bit hollow when you idea about permit would be it. In fact even more since I for money with your idea can make as many ships I want, as long as I can get lh for it. As it is today I only can get one ship a day. So the bigger vallet I have the bigger my advantage. I would be able to make 5 ore 10 ships a day. Furthermore the P2W isent just ships, I think it is fine to want a debate about dlc

what is wrong with you? It is 100% true that DLC ships require less real life time and ingame time to "craft". They take less than 20 clicks to buy on steam, redeem and arm with medium cannons. Why should I capture or craft 1 surprise for 30min in real life when you need 10 clicks? This is a FACT. If you disagree you are delusional. Also. If you understand english you would know that I just wrote a whole post about why ship stats are irrelevant to p2w in game. This is also a fact.

Fact: There is no balance between Santi, Victory or Ocean

Fact: There is no balance between Buc, Pavel, Chris

Fact: There is no balance between Bellona, wasa, 3rd

Fact: There is no balance between Connie, Inger, wappen

Fact: There is no balance between Suprise, Renomme, Trinco, endy, diana, herc, requin, santa, and all the 5ths i forgot

Fact: There is no balance between 6th rates

Fact: There is no balance between 7th rate

All ships in game are either better or worse than other ships. Balance doesnt exist.
 

There will be always a meta ship in port battles as long as you have armour thickness, cannon penetration and BR. Deal with it. 

[Hethwill]

Modules, Books and Perks to a point do adulterate the known historical manned and unmanned qualities of the ships.

Hercules, Xebec, Bellona, Trinc, Pickle...

Do a test. Make unmodded/nobooks/noperks Cerb vs same(nonothing) Herc

Then make it again but both fully upped as both player wish.

Take your conclusions of which feels much much better overall.

If you like arcade you will love the second.

[greybuscat]

I read the whole thing. Do I get a cookie?

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

@adminFirst of all I want to point out that I have defended the 2 DLC ships by supporting them joining port battles and refusing to call the P2W since our community overreacts and must have not played Naval Action for longer than 6 months.

 

*Glances at Steam library*

"Yacht  - Installed - 1/9/2015"

Whatever you say, dude. 🙄

 

39 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Almost all ships that were added to the game were OP at some point. Surprise was OP, Trinco was OP, Santa Cecilia was OP, Wasa was op and many other ships that were free ships were OP. I do not believe in balancing ships since some ships are simply better than others. The developers of a flight simulator does't need to justify why the F-22 is ""OP" compared to the F-14, F-15, F-16-F-4 etc. Some ships are better that others and in Naval Action certain ships are 100 years more advanced than others.

Balancing doesn't work and cannot work. 

Endymion>Trinco 

Suprise > Renomme

Bellona > Wasa

Wasa > Connie

Connie>All frigates

Connie<All Lineships. The only ship in the game that is comparable to the connie is the endymion. Even then you cannot balance. Connie is heavier period.  

Suprise>Herc Except for mast sniping but if masts were given hp buff on lighter frigates it would be ok. Endymion, Trinco, Connies have decent mast HP and thickness. They should be examples in my opinion. Anyway in a fight with no mast sniping I have killed 2 average pvpers with a Herc and Diana with my suprise in a 1v2. Herc in a gun fight will loose 9 times out of ten to a surprise. 

Requin is Hard to compare because she is so fast close hauled. I believe this ship is to fast and really needs a close hauled nerf. Maybe pirate rig nerf. I do not know that much about pirate rig to be honest. My judgement comes from observing and fighting those ships in battle. I cannot tell what mods they use. 

This is verging on nonsense. All of those ships have been subject to rebalance since I've started playing the game, both with individual adjustments, and with global changes (speed nerfs) that disproportionately affect one ship more than the other.

Quibbling over labels like "OP" and "P2W" is a waste of time and effort, but the fact that a ship like Wasa is no longer dominating the open world is proof that balancing does work, if "work" means "solve the problem of one ship dominating X or Y aspect of the game."

My issue with Herc isn't over labels. It's that the ship is so well balanced in nearly every category AND redeemable daily AND purchasable with real money, it dominates the OW only for those who pay for it. Whatever you want to call it, I don't like it.

My issue with LRQ is that it so overwhelmingly dominates the other lateen riggers AND is redeemable daily AND is only available with real money, it dominates those roles.

The good news is that there are multiple solutions to this, and only one is necessary. Make DLC ships craftable. Forbid them from certain activities. Introduce new ships that can come close to matching them that are craftable. Change DLC policy from notes to permits. Etc, etc, etc.

Can other ships beat these ships, given the right scenario? Sure, in the hands of the right captain, but that's the nature of this game. "I can beat you in X, ergo Y isn't OP" is the worst kind of argument in this game because it ignores the existence of skill gaps, it verges on stealth bragging, and worst off all, it's a refusal to engage in a real discussion about the game's systems on a global level. 

"Is X or Y a problem for HachiRoku" isn't a compelling question for anyone but HachiRoku.

 

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

The problem is that DLC ships are more convient than craftable ships and convenience is what makes them P2W. That is the definition of P2W. You have no argument there.

 

I don't think people should use labels like pay-to-win (P2W) because they are essentially meaningless buzzwords, and because people have a bizarre tendency to assign their own specific definition to what they mean and insist that theirs is objectively the one true correct definition. It's not like you looked this up in a proper dictionary. You have no argument here.

 

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Admin: all ships must be able to participate in all activities. in terms of value - why not capture 3-5 suprises for free? You can only use 1 herc in a day. but you can use as many captured ships as you want.

I believe that Admin's opinion here is ultimately harmful to the game, not rooted in anything concrete (e.g. Steam rules, governmental regulation, etc.), and I believe that Admin's opinion is potentially subject to change, as all opinions are. Maybe he will, probably he won't. Them's the breaks. But I will continue to push back against this, either way.

Ultimately, I don't expect the dev team to justify their decisions to me, but as someone who agrees with Admin, the least you could do is make a more compelling argument for why all purchased ships must be useable in all activities. Not all customers actually think that, so why do you? Give a reason. You didn't give a reason in that other thread. You just insisted.

 

[HachiRoku]

26 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

 

If they cannot change by law how the Herc and requin are build I will never play the game again. I mean that. I take stuff like this extremely serious. To this day I have not once payed a cent for an advantage over any player and have not played a single game with p2w. Where is the law that protects me from a non p2w game I payed for 4 years ago?

[Powderhorn]

12 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If they cannot change by law how the Herc and requin are build I will never play the game again. I mean that. I take stuff like this extremely serious. To this day I have not once payed a cent for an advantage over any player and have not played a single game with p2w. Where is the law that protects me from a non p2w game I payed for 4 years ago?

Dunno.  That's for them to elaborate on.  I'm just a volunteer, after all

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, greybuscat said:

I read the whole thing. Do I get a cookie?

 

*Glances at Steam library*

"Yacht  - Installed - 1/9/2015"

Whatever you say, dude. 🙄

 

This is verging on nonsense. All of those ships have been subject to rebalance since I've started playing the game, both with individual adjustments, and with global changes (speed nerfs) that disproportionately affect one ship more than the other.

Quibbling over labels like "OP" and "P2W" is a waste of time and effort, but the fact that a ship like Wasa is no longer dominating the open world is proof that balancing does work, if "work" means "solve the problem of one ship dominating X or Y aspect of the game."

 My issue with Herc isn't over labels. It's that the ship is so well balanced in nearly every category AND redeemable daily AND purchasable with real money, it dominates the OW only for those who pay for it. Whatever you want to call it, I don't like it.

My issue with LRQ is that it so overwhelmingly dominates the other lateen riggers AND is redeemable daily AND is only available with real money, it dominates those roles.

The good news is that there are multiple solutions to this, and only one is necessary. Make DLC ships craftable. Forbid them from certain activities. Introduce new ships that can come close to matching them that are craftable. Change DLC policy from notes to permits. Etc, etc, etc.

Can other ships beat these ships, given the right scenario? Sure, in the hands of the right captain, but that's the nature of this game. "I can beat you in X, ergo Y isn't OP" is the worst kind of argument in this game because it ignores the existence of skill gaps, it verges on stealth bragging, and worst off all, it's a refusal to engage in a real discussion about the game's systems on a global level. 

"Is X or Y a problem for HachiRoku" isn't a compelling question for anyone but HachiRoku.

 

 

I don't think people should use labels like pay-to-win (P2W) because they are essentially meaningless buzzwords, and because people have a bizarre tendency to assign their own specific definition to what they mean and insist that theirs is objectively the one true correct definition. It's not like you looked this up in a proper dictionary. You have no argument here.

 

I believe that Admin's opinion here is ultimately harmful to the game, not rooted in anything concrete (e.g. Steam rules, governmental regulation, etc.), and I believe that Admin's opinion is potentially subject to change, as all opinions are. Maybe he will, probably he won't. Them's the breaks. But I will continue to push back against this, either way.

Ultimately, I don't expect the dev team to justify their decisions to me, but as someone who agrees with Admin, the least you could do is make a more compelling argument for why all purchased ships must be useable in all activities. Not all customers actually think that, so why do you? Give a reason. You didn't give a reason in that other thread. You just insisted.

 

Why was the wasa op? It was the turn rate, the br, the sailing profile, the cannons and the fact that she was cheaper because of 30 pvp marks. This made a ship that was historically smaller than the bellona better than the bellona. You don't understand what op is. Why should I discuss something with someone that compares the herc and requin to the wasa? If the wasa was released as a premium ship it would be p2w because it could sink ships that were historically heavier. The wasa could outturn the connie with 30% sails. 

Suprise is allowed to join port battles now and is stronger than those ships. I would argue that a good pvp player could kill an average a herc and a requin in a 1v2 with a surp. People will not use the suprise because its inconvenient to craft. Tell me a ship ingame that a requin can sink that it couldn't in real life? Same question for a herc. 

I dont use words like p2w and op because they oversimplify and since naval action was intended to be a hardcore sim I would like it to keep ship stats real and fix mechanics like sailing profiles, armour thickness etc. I am not saying the stats of the 2 dlc ships are ok but as long as they are realistic to their real life versions I am happy. Nerfing the suprises 12 poinders was a big mistake imo.  Giving the vic the 68 carros did not harm did it?

There are many post about the requin I make and I do not believe the ship is ok. You should read more of the combat mechanics discussions points I made about those 2 ships performance. This topic is not about sea trials. Its about the dlc model and that stats do not matter to it. No matter how much you nerf those ships they will be p2w. 

I agree you should fight against p2w. I am not defending them. I just don't like compromises and I don't like unrealistic nerfs like the suprise got. I also don't like the turn rates of smaller ships. This is an issue they all have not only herc and requin.

 

[HachiRoku]

@greybuscat btw why are using points I make against me? reedemables etc?

[HachiRoku]

23 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

Dunno.  That's for them to elaborate on.  I'm just a volunteer, after all

thats the scary part