Mutiny!

[Angus MacDuff]

So i'm reading one of the Alan Lewrie adventures (King's Captain, Dewey Lambden), which covers the Nore Mutiny of 1797.  This was a major issue in the age of sail and i'm wondering if it has a place in the game.  As all of you history buffs know, the mutiny was caused by a number of factors.  low pay and pay in arrears, brutal officers, no shore leave for years on end and horrible food (issued at 13 ounces to the pound).  Many games factor in "keeping the plebes happy".  Could we have (and do we want) a "Mutiny" trigger in this game.  It's a good add for the realism factor, but of course, gameplay should come first.

To do it, the only way I can think is to institute operating costs for each ship you own.  Adjustable by the Captain (you), if you pay more, you get a happy crew with high morale.  Pay less and you get a surly crew.  Leave them surly long enough and you get a Mutiny.  Once a ship mutinies  in harbour, you'd have to put up a lot of money to get it back.  At sea, you could find yourself in a boarding mini game without warning and lose your ship.

How will it add to the game?  Some players will flat out hate this as they don't want any distraction from PVP, but part of this game is economy and that means covering your overhead as well as making profit.  This could make the economic part of the game more vibrant.

 

For your consideration, Messrs.

[LeBoiteux]

Often discussed

Maybe a feature for a single-player game (Sid Meier's Pirates 2 😉

Admin's reply

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, LeBoiteux said:

Often discussed

Maybe a feature for a single-player game (Sid Meier's Pirates 2 😉

Admin's reply

Good link, thanks.  I see @admin point in this regard, but that covers only one aspect, with which I agree.  I'm talking more about the economic requirement of keeping a crew happy at all times and paying out the overhead required in running a ship.  This touches another thread that spoke of high overhead for 1st rates etc.

[Capn Rocko]

I have to agree with admin.

Mutiny was a thing in uncharted waters online. When you sailed without food and water, your crew would had a chance to mutiny each day you did not replenish your provisions. It made sense in that game since you could dock/resupply at any port in the game. But I can just imagine sailing for 1hr+ in naval action and all of a sudden im missing half of my crew then getting ganked right after. 

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

I have to agree with admin.

Mutiny was a thing in uncharted waters online. When you sailed without food and water, your crew would had a chance to mutiny each day you did not replenish your provisions. It made sense in that game since you could dock/resupply at any port in the game. But I can just imagine sailing for 1hr+ in naval action and all of a sudden im missing half of my crew then getting ganked right after. 

Again, I refer you to the Nore Mutiny (and Portmouth/Plymouth).  The entire fleet mutinied because of general conditions aboard.  I'm thinking of this more for the economic impact that just a lengthy sailing issue.

[LeBoiteux]

Anybody must watch the Mutiny on the Bounty, 1935 with Charles Laughton as mean as always.

 

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

Often discussed

Maybe a feature for a single-player game (Sid Meier's Pirates 2 😉

Admin's reply

Naval Action 2 (single player) becouse it couldn't have more than 100 players :))) .

[AgentGB]

I think during the age of sail, pay for sailors was always relatively low, which is surprising considering it was a job the required a certain individual who could endure months at sea in a cramped space with others, to be highly trained & capable at their job and most often resulted to recruiting from other nations to fill roles. HMS victory itself had sailors from France, Spain as well has England manning it. I think what was the major pull factor for such individuals was the promise of prize money and why capturing was preferred to sinking. The men including captains would get quite upset if they entered into battle & were unable to capture a prize, there are many reports including from Nelson of his dismay of being unable to capture a prize, even accounts of captains pawning their own possessions to see that their men were adequately rewarded in the event of a loss of a prize.  

 

Of course there are other such combining factors has you mention and the Sid Meier games focused on the former, that sailors not given their fair share of prize money after taking prizes would become uncooperative, but voting in new captains was more of a pirate thing, on naval warships run by nations, there was a lot more discipline, so would most likely result in that ship losing experienced hands once back at port for other captains offering a better promise of fortunes on the high seas or going awol. 

 

Not sure how this could be simulated in game, if just another tax to retain an experienced crew whom would eventually leave once they've amassed enough wealth or see a high turn over of crew that have no experience due to the captain not divvying up the prize money fairly. Not sure there should be a boarding action by crews to simulate a mutiny, or your ship being made inmoblized for a short time, think it could be done via morale perhaps? or other areas

 

Overall though, i think there are other aspects of the game that could do with finer details, like the realm v realm aspect, such has player generated missions for bounties, patrols around ports to protect commerce, or patrols near enemy ports to project power and raid commerce, paid out from taxes collected by clans, or just by players with deep pockets. Would also allow traders or clans with an invested interest to keep certain ports clear of raiders to chip in to fund military activities/patrols around key ports. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by AgentGB

[Capn Rocko]

6 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Again, I refer you to the Nore Mutiny (and Portmouth/Plymouth).  The entire fleet mutinied because of general conditions aboard.  I'm thinking of this more for the economic impact that just a lengthy sailing issue.

I think in order for this to make sense in naval action that cost of hiring crew would need to be reduced and supplemented with a "daily cost". Maybe with a slider, from low pay to high pay. The higher the pay could yield something like a morale boost and the low pay would be a chance of mutiny. I'm not saying that im 100% on-board with this idea, but that is the only way I can see this working. 

[Farrago]

9 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

So i'm reading one of the Alan Lewrie adventures (King's Captain, Dewey Lambden), which covers the Nore Mutiny of 1797.  This was a major issue in the age of sail and i'm wondering if it has a place in the game.  As all of you history buffs know, the mutiny was caused by a number of factors.  low pay and pay in arrears, brutal officers, no shore leave for years on end and horrible food (issued at 13 ounces to the pound).  Many games factor in "keeping the plebes happy".  Could we have (and do we want) a "Mutiny" trigger in this game.  It's a good add for the realism factor, but of course, gameplay should come first.

To do it, the only way I can think is to institute operating costs for each ship you own.  Adjustable by the Captain (you), if you pay more, you get a happy crew with high morale.  Pay less and you get a surly crew.  Leave them surly long enough and you get a Mutiny.  Once a ship mutinies  in harbour, you'd have to put up a lot of money to get it back.  At sea, you could find yourself in a boarding mini game without warning and lose your ship.

How will it add to the game?  Some players will flat out hate this as they don't want any distraction from PVP, but part of this game is economy and that means covering your overhead as well as making profit.  This could make the economic part of the game more vibrant.

 

For your consideration, Messrs.

I’d much rather see ports revolt, turning neutral or even to another nation that keeps them “happy”. Rather than having timers cost reals, have traders have to bring in materials.

[JDAM]

We already have mutiny.  When your clan mates leave without warning, empty clan warehouses, and sink/capture your allies ships

Definitely have had the experience running a clan don't worry we have plenty of mutiny for everybody!  

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Good idea. Let the costs for calming your men down rise with every day on the sea. No shore leave certainly adds up to malcontent. So, after making a stopover, morale counter is reset.

[AgentGB]

I've been thinking about this, and how it could be simulated. 

 

If crew worked somewhat similar to labour hours, in the sense you had a certain amount trickle in over an hourly period, this would make rum more vital while at the same time crewing at sea/open world also less of a exploit. Since really you should have to atleast dock up to re-crew your ships and rum should be the only alternative to repairing crew at sea & not just in battle. 

 

When it comes to the mutiny aspect, i think if something was to be represented as such, it should not entirely be called mutiny, but more a focus on retention of crew instead. So higher wages for crew will lead to a higher trickle of crew over an hourly period to be recruitable then if you paid them a lower wage. So if you're taking a 1st rate into a patrol zone, killing alot of players but losing alot of crew, or you're a requin focused on boarding, but losing alot of crew to boarding in the process, your choice of replacing said crew will either be with huge stocks of rum at sea or paying more in wages to increase hourly trickle of crew to be obtained at port. Thus limiting ability to raid at sea unless carrying a good amount of said supplies or having to operate within range of a port which then perhaps begins to involve the realm v realm aspect on importance of ports. If wanting to get really draconian with such a mechanic, rum could be automatically consumed per day at sea aswell has being used to repair crew. Lack of rum while at sea will result in loss of crew to manpower pool (crew at port) or perhaps reduced abilities, e.g longer reload time, lower morale etc. This could allow for some more thoughtful play if trying to deter an enemy force from entering a port battle or blockading a capital port, attempting to run down their rum supplies at sea by standing each other off to make them return to port, and allow for logistic roles of ships carrying supplies if campaigning far from a home port. 

 

Like any retention in a business, if you paid a low wage, and with employee turnover you may be operating at 500 employee per day, to simulate employee leaving and coming, if the wage increased, that business will improve their retention increasing the amount of employee they're retaining per day.

Overall, this should give new players a more cost effective & forgivable means of crewing many smaller ships and being able to lose them alongside said crew while also adding an extra cost to more experienced players in crew heavy dependent ships whom will have to take into account their crew numbers at sea, hull space for rum rations or ability to operate away from port without being able to obtain crew from their daily reserves if not dependent on rum. 

 

If wanting to really focus on a mutiny aspect alongside retention, There can be 3 edicts that can issued weekly or daily, for example of the top of my head. 

High Wages - Morale Normal - Retention of Crew (daily cap high)

Low Wages - Morale Normal - Retention of Crew (daily cap normal)

Floggings - Morale Low - Retention of Crew (daily cap high) 

Could also make Crew supply & Labour hour supply one of the same thing giving it a correlation to give more focus on the above edicts.

Economy wise,  think it will allow new players to get into the rum making business and be able to distribute to a wider spread of port.

Foreseeable problems or advantages depending on how percieved, or how it could affect player behavior,  non-capturable free-ports will gain more emphasis has ports to raid behind enemy lines with

Edited November 22, 2018 by AgentGB