Patch 27 - New Economy feedback.

[TheHaney]

Just now, Psycho3630 said:

Let us not forget there is zero motive to take ports now. You need doubloons to build ships, you get doubloons most easily from enemy AI ships, which only spawn from enemy ports. You want enemy ports near your capital for easy retrieval. 

I was just talking to some folks about how this will affect port capture since you'll actively want to encourage NPC shipping through your territories. It's gonna get weird.

[admin]

4 hours ago, Pirate Blackbeard said:

So no is the answer then.

Thanks.

I don't remember you asking me a question. My comment was not an answer and was a statement to another player. I am not aware what your comment means or refers to. 

Answer no to which question? Thanks

[admin]

50 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

 

Proof? Today, after one of the most expected patchs of the year, we barely reached 500 guys online. The HARDCORE CHANGES to ships crafting requirements will drive people away, more than ever.

Devs havent learned a thing about all the feedback given after the patch 10 and the patch of the fine woods. This economy is far worse than the one we suffered in all previous iterations.

Its actually a lot better now. And i don't think we all have experienced it enough to actually confirm your statement.
The claim of hardcore changes of ship requirements is ridiculous given the trader brig dropping 2000 doubloons.
The whining on teleport charges is ridiculous given same 2000 doubloons drops from a mere trader.

The shock from removal of marks will pass (people connect doubloons with marks mistakingly). Please avoid unfounded ridiculous statements (like 10 doubloons for teleport is blocking your gameplay). Go hunt traders for a bit and you are set for like a month?
 

[vazco]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

The claim of hardcore changes of ship requirements is ridiculous given the trader brig dropping 2000 doubloons.

If this is the case, there's one huge problem then - PvP is completely unproffitable. If we get 1000 doublons for sinking a player in a 1st rate and 500 for sinking 4th, while 2000 for sinking an AI trader brig, it's an imbalanced system in terms of risk-reward.

An old PvP mark system was polished. Doublons are very much unpolished. Maybe they will work in the future. Now they have multiple issues.

[Greysteak]

If so many doubloons are required to build 4th rates and higher, we should be able to sell them in the shop and ask for doubloons not reals.

[admin]

7 minutes ago, vazco said:

If this is the case, there's one huge problem then - PvP is completely unproffitable. If we get 1000 doublons for sinking a player in a 1st rate and 500 for sinking 4th, while 2000 for sinking an AI trader brig, it's an imbalanced system in terms of risk-reward.

An old PvP mark system was polished. Doublons are very much unpolished. Maybe they will work in the future. Now they have multiple issues.

PVP against noobs in capital waters?
Port battles against lineships?
Which pvp is unprofitable? 

We don't give fixed rewards from no on.. That was bad design.
In pvp you get everything that pvp player had + some crew pay and fixed prize money. 

[Bumsebiene]

There is a bug . The pictures do not fit with war and peace. You have to swap the pictures of the servers

[Greysteak]

@adminI cannot give full and honest feedback about the new economic changes in this patch without mentioning that the economy is already broken by the DLC ships and I don't see anything, anywhere in this patch that helps that situation.

[Powderhorn]

Traders are going to continue to trade, raiders are going to continue to raid, and nation builders are going to continue to build nations.  I'm not sure what pinata is necessary for a relatively sandbox game.  Everyone finds their own motivation for playing.  Originally, PvP marks were to give PvPers some sort of reward for their play style, since it was relatively unrewarded early on.  Now rewards are distributed in different ways for different activities, but at first blush it does not seem unfair, and does not take away any of those intrinsic motivations that were present earlier.

[Powderhorn]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

You sink a player in a first rate and it gives you 1000 doubloons.

To craft a first rate, 8000 doubloons.

Dont you see the problem?

Could you explain the problem, rather than expecting people to fill in your argument for you?

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

It is a game but I expect people to still have a brain.

Trolling in feedback topics is not allowed. Focus on feedback. This is not a place for riddles, leave them for wenches in the tavern. 

[JDAM]

3 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

Could you explain the problem, rather than expecting people to fill in your argument for you?

I mean I can quickly read between the lines on that one.  He is saying a 1:8 return for something isn't really equitable when for the same risk it will cost you the :8 of that ratio to get on track again.

[Powderhorn]

Just now, Hemp Amore said:

I mean I can quickly read between the lines on that one.  He is saying a 1:8 return for something isn't really equitable when for the same risk it will cost you the :8 of that ratio to get on track again.

A 1:1 return on anything is unheard of in the real world.  Think of how many days you have to work to repay loans; how much you have to work out to get rid of a few extra holiday deserts.  And of course, 1st rates should be a sight to behold, yes?  Not cheapened by every 30 day Captain luffing around in one?

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Hemp Amore said:

I mean I can quickly read between the lines on that one.  He is saying a 1:8 return for something isn't really equitable when for the same risk it will cost you the :8 of that ratio to get on track again.

We strongly suggest captains to gather all information before trying to connect the dots and make statements like his. How many player first rates did he sink?
In addition to that.. Quick math is flawed. If 1:8 return on sinking is bad maybe he should ... cap.cap cap.. capture?
Like capture and get it for free? Saving all 8000 doubloons by capturing is not an option anymore?

What is the return quick math in capture? I am not good in math.

[JDAM]

1 minute ago, Powderhorn said:

A 1:1 return on anything is unheard of in the real world.  Think of how many days you have to work to repay loans; how much you have to work out to get rid of a few extra holiday deserts.  And of course, 1st rates should be a sight to behold, yes?  Not cheapened by every 30 day Captain luffing around in one?

There is no 30 day captains luffing around in them.  That is a fake problem, you actually typically only see 1st rates for PB and hostility, once in a while someone grinds out their knowledge slots.   But the totally inflated problem of too many people sailing 1st rates is just that.  Most sail in 5th-3rd rates as their daily sailing ships and that's the truth.

[vazco]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

PVP against noobs in capital waters?
Port battles against lineships?
Which pvp is unprofitable? 

We don't give fixed rewards from no on.. That was bad design.
In pvp you get everything that pvp player had + some crew pay and fixed prize money. 

In my understanding PvP player won't be able to do only PvP, he will be forced to do PvE. That's something we already tried before, with bad results.

From what I understand none of those PvP activities are profitable if you get 2000 doublons from killing an AI trader brig:

• fighting noobs in capital waters most likely won't bring you anything, as you'll get ganked in the end
• in RvR if you loot, you die. Your doublons will sink with enemy ship. Even if not, you'll get 500 doublons for 1st rate PB on average, much less than sinking a single trader
• OW hunting usually ends with ganks. If doublons get sank with your ship, it will stop being profitable

The only sustainable PvP will be ganking, however still less profitable than killing AI traders from what I hear.

[Powderhorn]

1 minute ago, vazco said:

In my understanding PvP player won't be able to do only PvP, he will be forced to do PvE. That's something we already tried before, with bad results.

From what I understand none of those PvP activities are profitable if you get 2000 doublons from killing an AI trader brig:

• fighting noobs in capital waters most likely won't bring you anything, as you'll get ganked in the end
• in RvR if you loot, you die. Your doublons will sink with enemy ship. Even if not, you'll get 500 doublons for 1st rate PB on average, much less than sinking a single trader
• OW hunting usually ends with ganks. If doublons get sank with your ship, it will stop being profitable

The only sustainable PvP will be ganking, however still less profitable than killing AI traders from what I hear.

PvP could be quit lucrative if you hunt those hauling freight - such as people returning from PvE, or merchants.  I wager with how easy it is to get doubloons, raw materials will be worth more.  To be seen, of course.

But why does it matter to the PvPer?  There are rewards easy enough to be gotten for PvPing, and they want to do something more than just sink AI.  Seems there should be plenty for the taking, the way I read the patch.

[admin]

6 minutes ago, vazco said:

From what I understand none of those PvP activities are profitable if you get 2000 doublons from killing an AI trader brig:

Ok. So why dont you sink that player who just killed a trader brig?
Sometimes you find empty targets. Sometimes you find rich moguls. Way of life?
I personally like it better. 

Every ship matter. See a trader brig? Why dont you sink it - you need that money. 

 

 

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Capturing, most of the time, is not a viable option.

Why? Because you have to bring that ship back to port.

Which is the problem? All the revenge fleet waiting outside.

But for them - what is their quick math if they capture your (their) ship back? Is it 8000 to 0? or 8000 to 8000? 

[Powderhorn]

Just now, Intrepido said:

Capturing, most of the time, is not a viable option.

Why? Because you have to bring that ship back to port.

Which is the problem? All the revenge fleet waiting outside.

If it is too expensive to teleport around all the time, there will be no revenge fleet.  If there is a revenge fleet, it is not too expensive to teleport around all the time.  If you just captured a first rate with a first rate, where is the rest of your fleet?  Or are you sailing unescorted in such a prize?  Perhaps the old ways were a problem, and the new ways better reflect the life of a Captain.

If you want to sail a first rate, perhaps instead you should think like an Admiral.

[admin]

1 minute ago, Powderhorn said:

If it is too expensive to teleport around all the time, there will be no revenge fleet.  If there is a revenge fleet, it is not too expensive to teleport around all the time.  If you just captured a first rate with a first rate, where is the rest of your fleet?  Or are you sailing unescorted in such a prize?  Perhaps the old ways were a problem, and the new ways better reflect the life of a Captain.

If you want to sail a first rate, perhaps instead you should think like an Admiral.

i personally feel that tp prices are far too low 

[admin]

Just now, Intrepido said:

Nothing but less for me as I have wasted my time and all the doubloons I could have gotten if I sank the ship.

We want lineships to be more expensive. And valuable. We want captains taking captured line ships home instead of sinking them. And we would love revenge fleets trying not only to get their ships back but also taking all gold doubloons back and more. 

[Capn Rocko]

1 minute ago, Powderhorn said:

PvP could be quit lucrative if you hunt those hauling freight - such as people returning from PvE, or merchants.  I wager with how easy it is to get doubloons, raw materials will be worth more.  To be seen, of course.

But why does it matter to the PvPer?  There are rewards easy enough to be gotten for PvPing, and they want to do something more than just sink AI.  Seems there should be plenty for the taking, the way I read the patch.

I would rather much have a brawl with another hunter than kill a trader. The game is funner when the fights are close and there should be rewards for taking the extra risk to fight a challenging battle. 

[Powderhorn]

Just now, Capn Rocko said:

I would rather much have a brawl with another hunter than kill a trader. The game is funner when the fights are close and there should be rewards for taking the extra risk to fight a challenging battle. 

Everyone defines fun differently.  For some, it is making a good merchant run, for another, it's a merchant escaping a hunting frigate.  Another still is outsmarting the merchant, while another outsmarts the frigate with an ambush.  Still others enjoy playing the map like a game of Risk.  "Fun" exists in as many ways as there are people in the game.  For this thread, it's a question of "How does the economy fit into the above picture?"

[vazco]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Ok. So why dont you sink that player who just killed a trader brig?
Sometimes you find empty targets. Sometimes you find rich moguls. Way of life?
I personally like it better. 

 

 

It's very simple - if I sink while fighting a guy who sank a trader, I will have to replace my ship by doing PvE. If I sink him, I will get only slightly more than just by sinking an AI trader, which is risk-free in comparison.


In terms of incentives, new system gives me incentive only to gank with a fleet which is able to return doublons safely to harbour. It's discouraging people from taking risks and fighting against odds. If this is the case, total number of battles will lower, as noone will want to fight against the odds. Old system was giving more rewards for such fights.

Of course I don't know this for sure - we'll see this in a few days.