Sinking Ships Should List

[OneEyedSnake]

     With the introduction of heeling to such an extent I believe it to be time that we have realistic listing models. Most ships in this game should list when taking on more water on one side than the other due to their compartments, rooms, etc. Certainly some ships wouldn't list because their hulls didnt have such compartmentalization on purpose or not. 

    Listing would add a new dynamic to the game in the way that leaks become critical should they be ignored. As the ship lists new leaks would occur as old holes in the ships submerge, escalating the situation further. As the ships list further cannons would be disabled as they go under water, or are elevated too much to be of any use to the battle. 

    Further graphic development is also a plus, as sinking ships currently just look stupid as they sink flat. A listing ship would truly be a more REALISTIC, and graphically pleasing element to the game.

Edited December 31, 2017 by OneEyedSnake

[Farrago]

2 minutes ago, OneEyedSnake said:

     With the introduction of heeling to such an extent I believe it to be time that we have realistic listing models. Most ships in this game should list when taking on more water on one side than the other due to their compartments, rooms, etc. Certainly some ships wouldn't list because their hulls didnt have such compartmentalization on purpose or not. 

    Listing would add a new dynamic to the game in the way that leaks become critical should they be ignored. As the ship lists new leaks would occur as old holes in the ships submerge, escalating the situation further. As the ships list further cannons would be disabled as they go under water, or are elevated too much to be of any use to the battle. 

    Further graphic development is also a plus, as sinking ships currently just look stupid as they sink flat. A listing ship would truly be a more REALISTIC, and graphically pleasing element to the game.

FINALLY someone actually gets this game and understands what is needed more than anything else! OneEye, you will save us. You ARE our hero.

 

[OneEyedSnake]

1 minute ago, Farrago said:

FINALLY someone actually gets this game and understands what is needed more than anything else! OneEye, you will save us. You ARE our hero.

 

.- . <3 much love 

[GrubbyZebra]

Just now, OneEyedSnake said:

.- . <3 much love 

 

2 minutes ago, Farrago said:

FINALLY someone actually gets this game and understands what is needed more than anything else! OneEye, you will save us. You ARE our hero.

 

Get a room...sheesh

[Wynkyn de Worde]

I would like to see One Eye replace Admin as the voice of the devs. He is a deep thinker who can see a positve future for this game.

[OneEyedSnake]

7 minutes ago, Wynkyn de Worde said:

I would like to see One Eye replace Admin as the voice of the devs. He is a deep thinker who can see a positve future for this game.

my vote was for you. but thank you for the flattery 

[Sir Texas Sir]

All you need a room, funny thing I was like why would I want a list of what's on the ship when I saw this post, you get that when you go check the cargo/board.  Than I read and was like OHHHH LIST....I think this would cause it to sink faster and they all ready back to sinking to fast with the new wind profile and leeway it's a pain to get to most ships that sink.

[Hethwill]

First step towards this is that structure ( that middle bar thingy which represents the beams, main frames, the keel, the bottom, etc ) may not be repaired at sea - for gameplay purposes, may not be repaired in battle instance. OW timescale repairs ok.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, OneEyedSnake said:

     With the introduction of heeling to such an extent I believe it to be time that we have realistic listing models. Most ships in this game should list when taking on more water on one side than the other due to their compartments, rooms, etc. Certainly some ships wouldn't list because their hulls didnt have such compartmentalization on purpose or not. 

    Listing would add a new dynamic to the game in the way that leaks become critical should they be ignored. As the ship lists new leaks would occur as old holes in the ships submerge, escalating the situation further. As the ships list further cannons would be disabled as they go under water, or are elevated too much to be of any use to the battle. 

    Further graphic development is also a plus, as sinking ships currently just look stupid as they sink flat. A listing ship would truly be a more REALISTIC, and graphically pleasing element to the game.

for example the area where the leaks are that should tell where the ship will go under first, for example if you have leaks in the bow, the bow will start to tip down, if you have leaks on one side it will automatically heel to that side while sinking

[Jean Ribault]

Probably makes more sense to add listing if you combine it with the removal of the visual health bars of the enemy ship (as has been suggested before).  Then in battle you know where to target more based upon actual visual feedback of the ship, instead of looking at the health bars.  I wonder if that increases the complexity or difficulty of battle to much for the average player though?

Oh, and yeah, OneEyedSnake for president, I'm all in too.

[OneEyedSnake]

8 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

Probably makes more sense to add listing if you combine it with the removal of the visual health bars of the enemy ship (as has been suggested before).  Then in battle you know where to target more based upon actual visual feedback of the ship, instead of looking at the health bars.  I wonder if that increases the complexity or difficulty of battle to much for the average player though?

Oh, and yeah, OneEyedSnake for president, I'm all in too.

I didnt even think about removing health bars. I probably wouldnt simply because the listing would be gradual and with proper repairs wouldnt be too visual until the structure is very low on health. As for being too complex, i dont think it would be either way. 

Also, thanks  

[OneEyedSnake]

9 hours ago, Hethwill said:

First step towards this is that structure ( that middle bar thingy which represents the beams, main frames, the keel, the bottom, etc ) may not be repaired at sea - for gameplay purposes, may not be repaired in battle instance. OW timescale repairs ok.

or implementing the idea of hard and soft health at the very least. 

[OneEyedSnake]

9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

All you need a room, funny thing I was like why would I want a list of what's on the ship when I saw this post, you get that when you go check the cargo/board.  Than I read and was like OHHHH LIST....I think this would cause it to sink faster and they all ready back to sinking to fast with the new wind profile and leeway it's a pain to get to most ships that sink.

all the more purpose to use battle sails in my opinion. 

[maturin]

Quote

Most ships in this game should list when taking on more water on one side than the other due to their compartments, rooms, etc.

There are no compartments or rooms. On a frigate, any shot-holes would cause flooding on the lower deck, which has no compartments of any kind, except flimsy cabins at the stern which would be struck down into the hold. So the water falls onto a wide-open, uninterrupted deck. From there, water runs down to bilges, where it collects at the lowest point of the ship.

The hold does have a few rooms, such as the bread room, sail room, spirit room, magazine, etc. But all of these are placed symmetrically, and the midships area is left open for barrels etc. So a ship floating on an even keel would be disposed to sink on an even keel.

Let's think logically about what actually happens. If you take a shot-hole beneath the waterline to port, that means that you were heeling to starboard. The water will flow to the starboard side of the hold. So you don't list towards the side you are flooding on (port), you just heel more to starboard. If you come about on the other tack, then of course the water will shift, and you will heel more to port.

So the only effect of flooding should be to increase heel angles, whatever they would naturally be on that point of sail.

Now ships would often sink bow-first or stern-first, but this was not predictable. I just read the account of a schooner that was rammed by a steamer near the mainmast. She sank by the bow, and the stern stayed afloat for hours. There was probably air trapped below or something.

What actually happens to sinking ships is that they roll heavily and lose stability. Flooding ships should have exaggerated reactions to waves in the game and possibly even capsize. And sometimes the bow or stern should sink faster, but that could be randomized, and not too common.

 

But if we go back to my ship leaning to windward like some drunken idiot just because I have 60% HP on that side, I will slit my wrists.

[OneEyedSnake]

1 minute ago, maturin said:

There are no compartments or rooms. On a frigate, any shot-holes would cause flooding on the lower deck, which has no compartments of any kind, except flimsy cabins at the stern which would be struck down into the hold. So the water falls onto a wide-open, uninterrupted deck. From there, water runs down to bilges, where it collects at the lowest point of the ship.

The hold does have a few rooms, such as the bread room, sail room, spirit room, magazine, etc. But all of these are placed symmetrically, and the midships area is left open for barrels etc. So a ship floating on an even keel would be disposed to sink on an even keel.

Let's think logically about what actually happens. If you take a shot-hole beneath the waterline to port, that logically means that you were heeling to starboard. The water will flow to the starboard side of the hold. So you don't list towards the side you are flooding on (port), you just heel more to starboard. If you come about on the other tack, then of course the water will shift, and you will heel more to port.

So the only effect of flooding should be to increase heel angles, whatever they would naturally be on that point of sail.

Now ships would often sink bow-first or stern-first, but this was not predictable. I just read the account of a schooner that was rammed by a steamer near the mainmast. She sank by the bow, and the stern stayed afloat for hours. There was probably air trapped below or something.

What actually happens to sinking ships is that they roll heavily and lose stability. Flooding ships should have exaggerated reactions to waves in the game and possibly even capsize. And sometimes the bow or stern should sink faster, but that could be randomized, and not too common.

"The angle of list is the degree to which a vessel heels (leans or tilts) to either port or starboard. A listing vessel is stable and at equilibrium, but the distribution of weight aboard (often caused by uneven loading or flooding) causes it to heel to one side." Wikipedia

 "Certainly some ships wouldn't list because their hulls didnt have such compartmentalization on purpose or not. " ~ me

Please read my post before commenting and an increased heel is by definition listing.

This would cause a gradual increase of water intake as more holes fall below the water line increasing the effect potentially parabolically, depending on where the holes are on the ship. 

Certainly your point on how ships sink due to taking on water by the bow or stern, take the Titanic for example, and the way it split due to its own stress from its angle, is a very good point and insight on how this should be implemented! Regardless however, the way ships sink in game currently is completely incorrect. 

[maturin]

There's nothing incorrect about the game. It's how a sailing ship would sink in calm water, if flooding gradually from multiple shot-holes with no sail set. Most of the time.

Note that ships do in fact exhibit a slight list when sinking, and often go down by the head. They easily roll over when rammed, and linger near the surface.

Heel =/= list.

List is a tilt due to weight imbalance of the hull, due to cargo or flooding.

Heel is tilt caused by wind pressure.

Titanic has nothing to do with this. She was a modern steel vessel with waterproof compartments, something no ship afloat (besides Chinese junks) in this era had.

Quote

This would cause a gradual increase of water intake as more holes fall below the water line increasing the effect potentially parabolically, depending on where the holes are on the ship. 

This would be a nice feature. But in practice it would just increase sinking speed, without affecting gameplay that much. In older builds it was possible to regularly pump all your water out even when 80% flooded with gunports awash, but that's not too common anymore.

[OneEyedSnake]

2 minutes ago, maturin said:

 

Heel =/= list.

 

however as your pointed out yourself. 

 

23 minutes ago, maturin said:

owards the side you are flooding on (port), you just heel more to starboard. If you come about on the other tack, then of course the water will shift, and you will heel more to port.

So the only effect of flooding should be to increase heel angles, whatever they would naturally be on that point of sail.

 

and in terms of the titanic, it was proven that her compartments doors, which had windows FAILED. She tilted upward with her stern. I only pointed that out because it related to what YOU said

 

25 minutes ago, maturin said:

 

Now ships would often sink bow-first or stern-first, but this was not predictable. I just read the account of a schooner that was rammed by a steamer near the mainmast. She sank by the bow, and the stern stayed afloat for hours. There was probably air trapped below or something.

 

 

6 minutes ago, maturin said:

There's nothing incorrect about the game. It's how a sailing ship would sink in calm water, if flooding gradually from multiple shot-holes with no sail set. Most of the time.

 

I guess the wind in game is fake, and i dont have my sails set ever then? Also in storm battles which are a bit unrealistic in game, the ship sink vertically. There is no 

 

27 minutes ago, maturin said:

 

 they roll heavily and lose stability. Flooding ships should have exaggerated reactions to waves in the game and possibly even capsize.

Thank you for your great insight Maturin! I believe you to be correct on how listing effects ships, so lets implement it into the game!