Patch 14: Part 1 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[Malachy]

10 hours ago, Bearwall said:

1vs1 a frigate was always going to come out short, but 2 or 3 vs 1 would almost certainly spell the demise for the SoL.. SoL were slower and a lot less manouverable than most frigs and this included the 3rd rates.

Then why did we never see massive numbers of frigates engaging 74s (who sailed alone) and why did frigates usually strike when they couldn't outrun Sols? Because they couldn't out turn them well enough to stick to their sterns and a single broadside from a 74 was enough to turn any frigate smaller than a Connie into match sticks.

[Hethwill]

You sure about that ?... That a frigate never engaged a 68 - 76 gun ?!..

I am with you on this one. It is a game. Let's not pull the realism card only when benefits one side of the coin  

[DeRuyter]

12 hours ago, Bearwall said:

1vs1 a frigate was always going to come out short, but 2 or 3 vs 1 would almost certainly spell the demise for the SoL.. SoL were slower and a lot less manouverable than most frigs and this included the 3rd rates.

FYI - The Agamemnon engaged 4 French frigates when Nelson was in command of her. The French escaped with one 40 gun frigate close to sinking. The Agamemnon didn't pursue due to rigging damage. (and no her masts were not sniped down!).

[William Livingston Alden]

3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

You sure about that ?... That a frigate never engaged a 68 - 76 gun ?!..

I am with you on this one. It is a game. Let's not pull the realism card only when benefits one side of the coin  

But it is ok, when the DEV's pull the realism card? for example stern raking.

[William Livingston Alden]

1 hour ago, DeRuyter said:

FYI - The Agamemnon engaged 4 French frigates when Nelson was in command of her. The French escaped with one 40 gun frigate close to sinking. The Agamemnon didn't pursue due to rigging damage. (and no her masts were not sniped down!).

that was in real life, where ships normaly engaged side by side and didn't fight like planes in curve battle. here in game you can turn around with full speed and shoot your cannons.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Malachy said:

Then why did we never see massive numbers of frigates engaging 74s (who sailed alone) and why did frigates usually strike when they couldn't outrun Sols? Because they couldn't out turn them well enough to stick to their sterns and a single broadside from a 74 was enough to turn any frigate smaller than a Connie into match sticks.

As I already wrote - most single frigs wouldn't be a match for a SoL, but most frigates sailed in concert with a companion and that made the engagement much more even. In general - two on one - both parties would leave eachother alone calculating the outcome too uncertain. Three frigs on one SoL would always result in an engagement or a court martial. And no - a single broadside from a 74 on a frigate were devastating but seldom deciding in itself.

 

17 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

FYI - The Agamemnon engaged 4 French frigates when Nelson was in command of her. The French escaped with one 40 gun frigate close to sinking. The Agamemnon didn't pursue due to rigging damage. (and no her masts were not sniped down!).

As above but I'd like to add that winds were the deciding factor irl and not always constant.

[Hethwill]

The possibility and reality of a 32 gun frigate deliberating attacking a frigate twice the tonnage ( 670 versus 1100 ), almost twice the guns and with three brig consorts, combined broadside greater that the offender. That's how orders were carried out. Not only when the captain wanted but what had to be done. That's how (XP) station was gained, and how many rewards were given.

Gladly the Navy fellow didn't have to build the ship himself, right ? But he had that one ship. One ship, one crew and a mission.

And the wind.

Which brings me to wondering if leeway could make it in.

[Vile Executioner]

When are we going to see update on 5th rates and 6th rates @admin, I'm loving the 4-1st rate update, trying to wait patiently to see whats in store for the little guys 

[DeRuyter]

22 hours ago, William Livingston Alden said:

that was in real life, where ships normaly engaged side by side and didn't fight like planes in curve battle. here in game you can turn around with full speed and shoot your cannons.

I agree that the turn fighting in game is exaggerated from what happened, but there was maneuvering prior to close engagement (Chesapeake v Shannon is a notable exception) and often maneuvering continued. There were attempts to get in a rake or retain the weather gauge in small engagements (Constitution v Java for example).

Those frigates were not going broadside to broadside with Agamemnon either. In another example Admiral Strachan ordered his frigates to pursue a French SOL squadron escaping from Trafalgar but they didn't directly engage them rather they harassed them and attempted to disable rigging to enable the British SOLs to catch up. During the battle the frigates engaged but stayed away from the French SOL broadsides even after the British SOLs caught up.

The game is forgiving compared to RL in maneuvering and to frigates taking a close range broadside  from a 74 - A French frigate tried this at the Nile and was totally wrecked by one broadside (HMS Orion v Seriuse).

[Malachy]

Honestly the frigate  to sol balance seems about right now... I'm wondering whether that's why they have held off on the patch.

[Lonar]

19 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

I agree that the turn fighting in game is exaggerated from what happened, but there was maneuvering prior to close engagement (Chesapeake v Shannon is a notable exception) and often maneuvering continued. There were attempts to get in a rake or retain the weather gauge in small engagements (Constitution v Java for example).

Those frigates were not going broadside to broadside with Agamemnon either. In another example Admiral Strachan ordered his frigates to pursue a French SOL squadron escaping from Trafalgar but they didn't directly engage them rather they harassed them and attempted to disable rigging to enable the British SOLs to catch up. During the battle the frigates engaged but stayed away from the French SOL broadsides even after the British SOLs caught up.

The game is forgiving compared to RL in maneuvering and to frigates taking a close range broadside  from a 74 - A French frigate tried this at the Nile and was totally wrecked by one broadside (HMS Orion v Seriuse).

 

Problem is when we go by realism everyone will sail a ship of the line because everything else is not good enough ... and that would be a really boring game. In that case balance and gameplay should be more importent then realism in my opinion.

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Lonar said:

 

Problem is when we go by realism everyone will sail a ship of the line because everything else is not good enough ... and that would be a really boring game. In that case balance and gameplay should be more importent then realism in my opinion.

I won't play a game with out some degree of realism. I don't think a 1st should have much to fear from less than 4 frigates, a third less than 3. 2 4th should be a tough fight for a second or third, but should be 3 4th to seriously bother a 1st. Frigates should be hunters and scouts, not main battleships. 

A 4th should be a good fight for two frigates, and that's about what we have now actually. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Malachy

[DeRuyter]

3 hours ago, Lonar said:

 

Problem is when we go by realism everyone will sail a ship of the line because everything else is not good enough ... and that would be a really boring game. In that case balance and gameplay should be more importent then realism in my opinion.

Well that's what I said really. For game play reasons you can take more broadsides then IRL  and a Surprise can stern rake an SOL until it has no crew too.

But different ships had different missions IRL and so that should be reflected in the game. IMO more combat model realism is better - so no stern grapping a SOL down to zero crew in a Surprise for example. A frigate should not be able to fight a SOL 1v1 in game and that was not their role IRL anyway. Just as SOL were not sent out on solo hunting missions to capture enemy privateers or to scout for the fleet, that was not their role for a lot of reasons some mentioned in this thread.  Certainly a group of frigates could take on an SOL IRL the French were attempting to cripple the Agamemnon's rigging and had she lost a mast the situation may have been different (obviously the French IRL did not have the excellent mast snipers we have in game). There is Indefatigable's famous battle with an SOL in a storm as well. In fact if we had realistic variable wind I am not sure many people would choose to sail an SOL except to a PB.