Towing Ships

[IndianaGeoff]

31 minutes ago, Raekur said:

Very well, then would you see it as an issue if a trader was able to tow a ship full of trade goods to a distant port?

The argument for not allowing traders to do this is the same for PVP's wanting to assault an area. There needs to be some vulnerability otherwise the game becomes strictly attack and counter attack with little to no chance to actually defend. If a trader has to take to the open sea to move a product and risk interception by a hostile then why should warships be exempt from the the same? If you want your supplies to be available then there are simple ways to do this without towing the supplies.

There are no simple ways to get repairs.  It takes a bunch of collecting or buildings to make them.  Can't buy at ports and the player market is very centralized and unreliable.  This is another advantage to highly organized groups.  I don't think the rich and highly organized groups need more advantages.

Having a limited supply in ports would still require major assaults to sail them in, but would let a hunter who wants to set up shop be able to do so easier.

[Rigs]

That's the biggest problem with the game, forcing players into a content, some will do and some will not. That leads to separating the player base, losing players and makes the added content only valuable for the first half. 

Not being able to tow repairs it's one of the examples, instead to have some faster meaningful PvP we just set it up so instead of sailing your ship there you are sailing a trader. Wut?

Is that because we try to get in some no challenge targets for OW? Charge me a trader each time and just give me my repairs.

There is no value added to me. It can work for big organized clans that have players and escort traders with repairs but the other players would just end up with their ship stuck in port. So they don't bother. 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rigs

[Hethwill]

Can you define "meaningful PvP" as in a universal definition, not as a individual opinion. Please. Thank you.

[Rigs]

It's competitive PvP as opposed to PK. As far it concerns me, killing a loaded trader it's PK and not PvP. 

I want to fight with my ship that I towed to the port and not with my loaded trader on the way there.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rigs

[Khyron]

might i suggest hiring someone to sail them there for you? would help some of the lower level guys make some money. I've made some decent money by stocking some ports with consumables on off hours :-)

[Rigs]

Alternatively, why don't the EU Trades sell repairs, they should need them for their ships, it will also be a good way to control prices and a gold sink.

[Rigs]

52 minutes ago, Khyron said:

might i suggest hiring someone to sail them there for you? would help some of the lower level guys make some money. I've made some decent money by stocking some ports with consumables on off hours :-)

I think it would a good addition to the game to have a regional auction house. Not only to view buy, sell items and ships but to post and get contracts as well.  

I believe it would help the game tremendously.

Meantime, the big clans are the strategic minds behind PB and hot PvP zones, I think they could also help with staging areas advertise the said ports and make the repairs available in the shop so more can join the fight. Just some thoughts.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rigs

[IndianaGeoff]

1 hour ago, Khyron said:

might i suggest hiring someone to sail them there for you? would help some of the lower level guys make some money. I've made some decent money by stocking some ports with consumables on off hours :-)

You can suggest it.  But getting it to happen... Not gonna happen.  That newb wants to blow stuff up instead of spending 2 hours sailing stuff for others.

All 3 of them.

Edited October 24, 2017 by IndianaGeoff

[Farrago]

42 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

You can suggest it.  But getting it to happen... Not gonna happen.  That newb wants to blow stuff up instead of spending 2 hours sailing stuff for others.

All 3 of them.

Well, it could give noobs a chance to get involved, a chance to work with your clan, and perhaps they would do it for a decent build small ship that they can use. Most clans can pop out a decent Snow, Cerb, or even Surprise without blinking an eye.

Look for ways to bring players into your team.

[Ser_Slack]

Why stop with repairs? How about those Carros and long cannons.

[IndianaGeoff]

25 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Well, it could give noobs a chance to get involved, a chance to work with your clan, and perhaps they would do it for a decent build small ship that they can use. Most clans can pop out a decent Snow, Cerb, or even Surprise without blinking an eye.

Look for ways to bring players into your team.

I gave out two ships last night to a newbie without forcing him to be a shipping whore.  He will be fighting in them tonight, having fun, not being lost an hour away from anything.

[Farrago]

2 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I gave out two ships last night to a newbie without forcing him to be a shipping whore.  He will be fighting in them tonight, having fun, not being lost an hour away from anything.

Hmm.  Shipping whore? Kind of harsh. Oh well. We give out fre ships to our new players too; I was basically addressing players who think getting repairs to their battle is too much work.

Fair sails. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Farrago

[Khyron]

The BEST thing about this forum is every question that gets a possible answer gets told his answer is no good and the cycle continues, I merely suggested an option. I've given free ships to people NOT in my clan to help new people, I've also run escort to traders that are not in my clan for the hell of it, not everyone is a PVP king, there are times that I do other things... i guess i made an assumption that all the people on this server are not just hunters... i'm sorry for the assumption.

[Serk]

6 hours ago, Ser_Slack said:

Why stop with repairs? How about those Carros and long cannons.

You can already tow a ship with it's gun complement. 

[CaptVonGunn]

42 minutes ago, Serk said:

You can already tow a ship with it's gun complement. 

i think he was ,=meaning in cargo...  making the point thst anything in cargo is a bad idea

[Hethwill]

17 hours ago, Rigs said:

It's competitive PvP as opposed to PK. As far it concerns me, killing a loaded trader it's PK and not PvP. 

I want to fight with my ship that I towed to the port and not with my loaded trader on the way there.

Thank you for the answer. Though it is a individual exposition of what it means rather than a universal definition of "meaningful PvP" ; that encompasses all major playstyles ?

ExtraCredits made a interesting episode about this. Planning objectives by session, end session when objective is done and that setting strenuous unrealistic objectives results in less than optimal quality of individual gameplay.

Let's break down a normal weekly cruise involving a expedition to a distant region, by a group of 5 players. Let's assume 2 hours ( commonly assumed as the healthy measure of time to spend in any one game non stop )

Session 1. assemble convoy with supplies for the week and weekend. Craft all needed, do some local trade runs.

Session 2. sail together to the destination. Adjust for the unknown. This can be OW encounters with raiders or friendlies needing help.

Session 3. Scout the area. Find the trade routes. Make your presence known by engaging ANY enemy shipping.

Session 4. Carry on fighting the good fight.

Session 5. End the cruise and return home with spoils and tales of victory or defeat.

 

If everything is teleported everywhere at anytime two things disappear, given there's no more need. One being the logistical planning of the sessions ( the further away from home base the more planning is required ). Second the OW encounters, the chance nature of the OW unknown - who might we bump into - whatever nature of the PvP. After all the simplest definition of PvP is that - player interacting with player, each with its own intents.

 

Snappy salute !

 

[Rigs]

3 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

Thank you for the answer. Though it is a individual exposition of what it means rather than a universal definition of "meaningful PvP" ; that encompasses all major playstyles ?

ExtraCredits made a interesting episode about this. Planning objectives by session, end session when objective is done and that setting strenuous unrealistic objectives results in less than optimal quality of individual gameplay.

Let's break down a normal weekly cruise involving a expedition to a distant region, by a group of 5 players. Let's assume 2 hours ( commonly assumed as the healthy measure of time to spend in any one game non stop )

Session 1. assemble convoy with supplies for the week and weekend. Craft all needed, do some local trade runs.

Session 2. sail together to the destination. Adjust for the unknown. This can be OW encounters with raiders or friendlies needing help.

Session 3. Scout the area. Find the trade routes. Make your presence known by engaging ANY enemy shipping.

Session 4. Carry on fighting the good fight.

Session 5. End the cruise and return home with spoils and tales of victory or defeat.

 

If everything is teleported everywhere at anytime two things disappear, given there's no more need. One being the logistical planning of the sessions ( the further away from home base the more planning is required ). Second the OW encounters, the chance nature of the OW unknown - who might we bump into - whatever nature of the PvP. After all the simplest definition of PvP is that - player interacting with player, each with its own intents.

 

Snappy salute !

 

I agree that represents the thinking of some of the players but not all.

That's what I think the problem with getting and retaining new players, seeing and implementing things only based on the view of the already established players.

So, how are the new players, single players and that ones that have limited time fit into this?

Wouldn't the rest of the points above be also done by the first ship that you tow to the port without being forced into all the other content?

By forced means there is no other option.

Same principle, we spawn most of combat missions far away into enemy territory to make it so players would go there and force them into OW fights.

Does it make any sense to take a PvE  equipped ship and risk getting gank'ed coming out of a mission already damaged? 

In my opinion and likewise players, if I had 5 guys why bother with the teleport at all?

We have to sail from point A to B regardless so why not take my buddies all with warships/supplies and a trader in the tow as well and just go there? 

In my opinion, more options fits more players and game types. For example allowing the tow with repairs doesn't stop the other players to do what you described above but it also allows the other players to their thing which is instant PvP.  Keep in mind that tow means away from safe zones and will lead to PvP anyhow.

Thank you for your response

 

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Rigs

[Hethwill]

Maybe I did not refer it was with limited time. Each session being 2 hours. Doesn't matter is it is one session per week or one session each day.

The playstyles are really diverse and they conflict with each other in the sense that... pvp erupts.

PvP, universally, represents player to player interaction, whether wanted or unwanted by any of the players partaking in the action.

[Rigs]

2 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Maybe I did not refer it was with limited time. Each session being 2 hours. Doesn't matter is it is one session per week or one session each day.

The playstyles are really diverse and they conflict with each other in the sense that... pvp erupts.

PvP, universally, represents player to player interaction, whether wanted or unwanted by any of the players partaking in the action.

I'm still redacting the above, anyhow if you think it's worth, read it, just a matter of a different approach to encompass more players. 

The problem is with the unwanted, in general the bad experience that will lead a lot of people away, especially the new ones.

I think we all agree that the game needs more players, the lack of players will surely kill the game.

I also believe that at this point the game should target getting and retaining new players above all. 

If the already established players do not want to see from the new players perspective and allow for compromise... just look at numbers and the trend will continue.

Pleasing only the established players, which happen to be the loudest, will only keep them in game, but, in the end they will only go away because of lack of players.

It's all interlinked. 

If the game implements things just for the sake of some to be prey for others, it's not going to happen because we are not fish and... brains over brawn.

I don't think anybody in the right mind wants to play the game just to entertain the others.

Just some food for thought and thank you for sharing your point of view. 

 

[Ser_Slack]

10 hours ago, Serk said:

You can already tow a ship with it's gun complement. 

Sounds like an exploit. Which was the point.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Ser_Slack

[Rigs]

On 10/24/2017 at 2:35 AM, Slim Jimmerson said:

Towing with repairs is a problem because a) you're taking away from a big part of the game (Trading and Manufacture)

Once we can tow everything around with no risk and every freetown is stocked to the brim with repairs, b).it takes away the ability of the trader to make money doing the same thing.

I can already TP a surp back and forth to supply my far away outpost with plenty of 9/6pd longs which only last 1 ship. c) A boatload of repairs would keep a privateer going for weeks

a) How is that? Where those repairs that you tow come from? Are they just appearing from thin air? Aren't they produced via manufacturing and the trading? 

b). You can't take anything if doesn't exist. We wouldn't have this discussion if there was a market or somebody constantly supplying all those outposts so it's either we lack players or the the risks vs. rewards are not worth... Personally I don't have time for that and I don't think it's worth my trouble so from players like me perspective the towing as is, it's just half ass.

c) So you would rather have them sitting in the safe zone. It would mean at least get some out of safe zones and in PvP, use them repairs, manufacture/trade more and get back. Something it's always better than nothing.

[Farrago]

While I want the game to cater to as many play styles and game goals as possible if it is going to be a dynamic, open world sandbox it can not cater to the arcade crowd. TP all over the map with whatever you need is an example of "arcade"

[Slim McSauce]

@Rigs for US global our main ports stay plenty stocked of repairs. Maybe you or me wouldnt want to haul repairs across the map, but there are people who will and could make loads of many doing so. 

Supplying repairs is one of the few logistical factors in PBs, especially far away from capital. If your fleet could all tp a lineship full of reps then it makes traders/haulers redundant in the same way having all the ships being craftable by note makes shipbuilders redundant

Edited October 25, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Raekur]

I think the other thing that needs to be pointed out is that if traders have to risk losing their ship in order to make money then raiders and pvp can share the same risk getting to a distant port. Why should one play style gain a significant advantage over another? If PVP / RVR can simply teleport a fully assault capable ship to any place that they person sailed to in a basic cutter then what risk is actually involved?

If you want it, work for it.

[Hethwill]

Just an observation that might be overlooked - A Raider still has to bring the prizes back to its haven, there's no guarantee of success. The prizes can be recaptured. In one moment a trade raider is the shark, the next moment he his simply a "stolen goods" hauler.