Learn Something About Customer Satisfaction

[BK-KnightRider]

The developers had better learn something about customer satisfaction by meeting or exceeding the interests and expectations of as many different kinds of players as possible or they will end up with only two types of niche players:

1) Players who care only about PvE so they don't mind banishment to the PvE server; or

2) Players who care only about PvP because they love bullying weaker players and smaller nations.

But the players who want to do BOTH PvE and PvP to varying degrees depending upon their mood and the relationships they develop with other players will mostly quite.  They will quite because they don't want banishment to the PvE server, which is too easy and boring over the long term.  They will quit because of the rampant cheating that gives the players with deep pockets unfair advantages over the players who can only afford to buy one copy of the game, which makes it too difficult and frustrating.  They will quit because of how the economy (i.e. Victory Marks/Points) now incentivizes bullying and one porting the smaller nations.  They will quit because of how the economy makes it too difficult for solo players who want to be a jack of all trades who does both PvE and PvP but who does not want to join a clan to get and stay competitive.

ALL players in ALL nations should have a reasonable opportunity to get and use whatever ships they want to get and use, but the current economy makes they unrealistic.  Who in the world came up with the crazy exchange rate of 350 combat marks per victory mark?  That is ludicrous.  That is unreasonable.  They will quite because of how the current economy ensures that the only two countries with any reasonable chance to earn a USEFUL amount of victory marks/points are the top two nations that will trade the #1 position back and forth.  But the rest of the players in the rest of the countries are just SOL (someone else can translate this) - except of course for the players with deep pockets who can afford to have an alt account in both of the top two nations.  They will quit because they get tired of how the developers keep trying to manipulate us into playing the game the way the developers want us to play instead of making it possible for US (i.e. we the players) to play the game the way WE want to play the game.

WE the players are the customers.  We are NOT the developers employees.  So, if the developers want this potentially great game to be the great success it has the potential to become then the developers had better learn how to understand and satisfy many different kinds of players instead of only two kinds of players.  The developers have the responsibility to develop the game to empower us players to have fun playing the game the way WE want to play the game.  But as long as the developers keep reacting to and placating only the selfish bullies who care solely about bullying and dominating other players in PvP - by ANY means possible - the rest of us will eventually give up and quit the way more than a few other players I know have given up since the wipe.  Now, if the developers can be happy with satisfying only two kinds of niche players then they are on the right track.

[BK-KnightRider]

19 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

LOL

Does inconvenient truth sting a little?

[BK-KnightRider]

If you tell me all that then my response is your subjective anecdotal information only avoids the real point of my original post (i.e. a red herring).  Okay, so you are not a bully who gets off on abusing weaker players and smaller nations?  Good for you.  But just because you are not a selfish bully who cares ONLY about PvP that does not mean there are not plenty of them out there who ruin the game for other players.  This is one of the reasons why I know more than a few players who have quite because they don't want banishment to the PvE server.  They want to do BOTH PvE and sometimes PvP.  They want to be able to have fun and success doing both as much as they feel like doing both on the same server.

Why/how is it soooooooo bloody hard for a lot of players to have some consideration and empathy for players who have different preferences and playing styles?

[Random]

56 minutes ago, BK-KnightRider said:

 your subjective anecdotal information 

Why/how is it soooooooo bloody hard for a lot of players to have some consideration and empathy for players who have different preferences and playing styles?

Do you have any hard data other than your subjective information? You bring up several valid points, but dismissing similarly valid counter points will not help you engage others in a productive discussion.

How do people who like PvP ruin the game for others on PvP server? I mostly do trading/crafting/missions on PvP server due to time constraints that do not allow me to engage in meaningful PvP. I, however, understand that I chose to play on a PvP server and that other players could be coming by to hunt my trade fleets. I welcome that challenge and that risk as it makes things more meaningful and interesting. I do not wholly understand what you are proposing. Do you want people to be able to engage in risk free PvE on PvP servers? Please elaborate and propose something specific that would alleviate your concerns and provide a more enjoyable gaming experience for all.

 

[Hethwill]

Let's put the PvE server aside.

PvP servers do offer all experience of the game, with the PvE comfort and the PvP risk.

The raw truth is that all activities are bound to player choices, with no perceptible safety nets other than:

- basic cutter

All the rest is player made. 

The Newcomer zones were tested for a while in the Bahamas but the impression is that it was most used by veterans than by the newcomers themselves which, like all players, decided to stick mostly to the Nation capital and evolve from there.

but back to the baseline rule of PvP servers

- the moment you hit Sail and you are present in the OW things will happen two fold, when you want them to happen and when other player want them to happen.

 

Players themselves assume roles that are kin to age of sail occupations.

As you well put, there's no true way to play the game. Each one of us finds a role to play that provides quality fun while in character.

 

Multiplayer is the keyword. Friendly and unfriendly.

 

Snappy salute captain.

 

[Archaos]

Although the OP may raise valid points I think the problem sometimes is the Devs have tried to satisfy too many playstyles and that has led to a lot of back and forth in the game and in the long run even less people happy. The trick is finding the balance that keeps majority of people happy.

It is the same argument in every online game that I have played with people being classed as PvP'ers and PvE'ers the latter usually called "carebears", what most of them fail to realize is the biggest percentage of players are somewhere in between and they are usually the silent majority. The PvP'ers are always screaming for more PvP and for the game to force people out into the OW so that they have to fight, while the other extreme wants to do their PvE stuff in peace without being interrupted.

[Hodo]

2 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

Does inconvenient truth sting a little?

So you have never heard of the Sheep, Wolf, Sheepdog comparison have you?

MMO PVPers, come in three basic flavors.

There are Sheep, the PVEr who wants nothing to do with PVP, and only wants to enjoy the little things in the game.  

The Wolves, who love to prey on the sheep, and generally only concerned with the hunt and kill.

And the Sheepdogs, who are there to enjoy all aspects of the game, but dont go seeking out PVP, but dont mind it when it happens. 

 

You sir are a sheep.  

[Chuliki]

5 minutes ago, Hodo said:

And the Sheepdogs, who are there to enjoy all aspects of the game, but dont go seeking out PVP, but dont mind it when it happens. 

10/10 me

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

PvE in peace happens on PvE server. Do you know why PvP scream for more PvP? Because very often it happened that they sailed for 5-6 hours looking for a fight and then had to quit the game without having any PvP. That's why they very often come to capitals and are called "sealed clubbers" because that's the most common place to find a fight.

I was not advocating that either side was right, I was just stating how it is. But pure PvP'ers sometimes forget that you have to encourage the other people out into the OW to create targets for PvP. Traders will not come out if they know they have no chance of making a successful run or no chance of profit. You also have to encourage people out to PvP by making PvP more attractive than PvE.

By "PvE in peace" I mean more the sort of person who does'nt mind PvP now and again, but when they want to do PvE they dont want to have someone jumping in on their mission. I agree thats just tough luck if you play on a PvP server, but you still have people that are like that and they put demands on the Devs.

[Vllad]

3 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

The developers have the responsibility to develop the game to empower us players to have fun playing the game the way WE want to play the game.  But as long as the developers keep reacting to and placating only the selfish bullies who care solely about bullying and dominating other players in PvP - by ANY means possible - the rest of us will eventually give up and quit the way more than a few other players I know have given up since the wipe. 

First: The proverbial "we" essentially means "you". By stating what you have you have already broken your own rules by trying to make everyone play the game that YOU want to play. I would start by living by your own standards first and accept that not everyone who enjoys PVP is a "bully" and is out to ruin every ones fun and not everyone wants to play the game you want to play.

Second: There are no titles to date that have even successfully built a PVP and PVE game on a single server. Either the PVP or PVE sucks when you combine them. This is no simple feat. That is not to say some came close but you make it sound so simple when in-fact it is very difficult. You are a perfect example of why PVP and PVE doesn't fit together and most of the time is mutually exclusive.

Third: The developers have given you a PVP server and a PVE server. If you don't want to PVP they have already given you an option so why in the world would you come here complaining about PVP? No one is forcing you to play on the PVP server, you did that not the developers. You are one of those players to logs in to play an FPS (first person shooter) than goes to there boards and constantly complains how FPS games suck. If you don't like them DON'T PLAY THEM!

[Macjimm]

Perhaps some players have excessive expectations.

What kind of ship and how much wealth should a player be able to gain .... and how quickly?

Perhaps  it might be reasonable to acquire a dozen  large ships (Pavels, Vics, and Santis) plus a dozen other ships with hundreds of millions in gold and possess a half a dozen ports  over  a few thousand hours ?   But  it may be unrealistic for a player to be able to own several 3rd rates in a couple hundred hrs? 

If you are expecting to progress quickly you may value a game that would be far to easy for many others.

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Vllad said:

 

Second: There are no titles to date that have even successfully built a PVP and PVE game on a single server. Either the PVP or PVE sucks when you combine them. This is no simple feat. That is not to say some came close but you make it sound so simple when in-fact it is very difficult. You are a perfect example of why PVP and PVE doesn't fit together and most of the time is mutually exclusive.

 

I agree with what you say, but a game of pure PvP is difficult in an MMO because in general MMO's tend to simulate so kind or real or fantasy world and to do this they have to have some real world style elements like crafting and trading. In NA if you had a pure PvP game you may as well do away with OW and just have a world of warships type game. The trading and crafting aspect of NA gives more interest to the game and allows people who enjoy doing other things rather than just PvP.

In the end all these things should work together and if they are done correctly you should have a better game. The PvP'ers rely on the crafters to make them good ships to use for PvP, the crafters rely on the traders to supply them with the materials to craft, and the traders rely on the PvP'ers to protect them from raiders. Now all of this should happen in a PvP environment. Trading is boring if there is no risk, crafting is pointless if every material is easy to obtain and every crafter can churn out the best ships and PvP just for the sake of PvP can also sometimes be boring, hence the need of something to fight over whether in be region conquest, raiding traders or protecting traders.

Now the crafting and trading side of the game are classed as PvE activities and in terms of a successful game this aspect of PvE should be catered for with a robust economy and distribution of crafting materials. If you lose the players who enjoy this side of the game then ultimately you destroy PvP content. The reason many PvP games fail is they do not get the balance correct. 

As to the PvE mission side of the game well that should be okay for leveling up and practicing but should have minimal importance on a PvP server. 

[Vllad]

7 hours ago, Archaos said:

I agree with what you say, but a game of pure PvP is difficult in an MMO because in general MMO's tend to simulate so kind or real or fantasy world and to do this they have to have some real world style elements like crafting and trading. 

Agreed and this is where most MMO's go wrong but there are generally three types of PVP games.

Great RvR PVP MMO's like Planetside, WWII-Online, Shattered Galaxy had combat and combat only. PVE elements didn't exist in them. 

Warhammer, ESO and DAOC had the PVP separated into separate pieces of the game and while mildly successful that form of PVP comes with problems. 

The rest have tried to meld PVP/PVE and primarily just failed. EQ2 and Shadowbane are just about the only games I have played to date that really came close to making them work. 

I play NA because since EQ2 it is the only game that comes close to merging them. You could make an argument that while this game is still flawed it has come closer than anyone else in over a decade. Ultimately I am not sure anyone will ever be successful. PVP and PVE players are just not meant to play in the same playground. You just need to force PVP players to sometimes PVE in order to pull it off. 

[Bill Adama]

10 hours ago, Hodo said:

So you have never heard of the Sheep, Wolf, Sheepdog comparison have you?

MMO PVPers, come in three basic flavors.

There are Sheep, the PVEr who wants nothing to do with PVP, and only wants to enjoy the little things in the game.  

The Wolves, who love to prey on the sheep, and generally only concerned with the hunt and kill.

And the Sheepdogs, who are there to enjoy all aspects of the game, but dont go seeking out PVP, but dont mind it when it happens. 

 

You sir are a sheep.  

American Sniper all up in this bizznitch

[Archaos]

8 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

Or force PvE players to accept the fact that PvE is not safe bubble for them on PvP server... Real privateers don't need PvE to get ships and gold.

The thing is that pure PvE'ers are happy enough with the PvE server. The problem is with the people who enjoy a bit of both PvE and PvP but dont want to be interrupted when they want to do PvE, e.g. I want to go grind some PvE missions and I dont want someone jumping in and spoiling my fun, or I need to transport those materials to build my PvP ship but I dont want to be jumped by some raider.

PvE on a PvP server should never be a safe bubble.

[Hethwill]

Safety should be provided by players themselves, in a PvP environment, by whatever artifices the groups see appropriate.

Also every captain must have the presence of mind that sometimes it is impossible to be helped.

Slug it out the best you can and good luck.

[BK-KnightRider]

22 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

Players need to follow simple rules not to "get ganked". Majority of players that quit are careless.

Alone sailing on Indefatigable from capital and doing mission. This just asks for trouble, doesn't it? AFK sailing too. Not paying attention to thousand warnings and reports in nation chat. Having seen it dozens of times, about 4-5 reports in last few minutes in nation chat about hostiles and watching few traders set sail and other players go for mission for example. Traders sailing on crappy and cheap ships, but hauling cargo worth 1-3m of gold. Don't tell me they cannot afford some marines, speed mods and possibly pay someone for small escort Doing PvE in the hot PvP zones where waters are being under attack whole day. 

I am forced to do PvE as well sometimes, sometimes I am forced to trade a little to get what I need. Most of the time I PvP and I am solo hunter, lonely wolf. Since the wipe I've never been "ganked" by following simple rules and common sense. 

What's your solution for these problems? Safe PvE zone for carebears or some special mechanic to babysit them?

In other words, there is zero room in this game on the PvP server for solo players because the only way to survive and thrive is by sailing with a group.  Solo players are not welcome and are just SOL and need banishment to the PvE server.  Also, why even bother with offering solo missions?  They might as well get rid of solo missions and instead stick solely with fleet missions.  This is the essence of your position.

The straw man you fabricate by focusing only on careless players and oversimplifying the issue as babysitting care bears is disingenuous.  Surviving against a group of three or more is impossible unless the group is incompetent.

I have not yet tried to think of any solutions.  One I can think of off the top of my head is shore batteries that are actually  capable of doing their friggin job.  Since players cannot rely upon other players to help whenever and wherever they/we need help regular trade route should have routine Naval patrols that are actually worth a damn.  NPCs that seem to wonder around aimlessly and whimsically are pointless for actually protecting the commerce upon which nations rely.  They are nothing more than targets for grinding instead of a useful defense to national waters.  Maybe traders should be able to hire escorts that are actually strong enough to provide reasonable protection.  Oh, here is another one - exiting a mission battle should provide exactly the same invisibility and speed boost as exiting an OW battle.  A battle is a battle is a battle so they should ALL get the same treatment.

Reasonable people who are willing to engage in independent rational thought and objective debate can discuss the issues and think of reasonable solutions.  Strongly favoring and thus catering to only one style of play, manipulating everyone to gravitate toward that style, and banishing others to the PvE server will only satisfy that one subgroup and alienate everyone else.  The end result will be a game that satisfies only two niches so it won't grow much beyond those two niches.

[Hethwill]

Plenty of players do solo in PvP server. Or with a buddy.

Our group is 4 strong, we rarely sail all 4 together. We do everything needed to have a blast in the game.

It is a matter of perspective and managing expectations.

In PvP Server always expect a sail beyond the horizon.

 

[BK-KnightRider]

21 hours ago, Drunken Spelunking said:

Do you have any hard data other than your subjective information? You bring up several valid points, but dismissing similarly valid counter points will not help you engage others in a productive discussion.

How do people who like PvP ruin the game for others on PvP server? I mostly do trading/crafting/missions on PvP server due to time constraints that do not allow me to engage in meaningful PvP. I, however, understand that I chose to play on a PvP server and that other players could be coming by to hunt my trade fleets. I welcome that challenge and that risk as it makes things more meaningful and interesting. I do not wholly understand what you are proposing. Do you want people to be able to engage in risk free PvE on PvP servers? Please elaborate and propose something specific that would alleviate your concerns and provide a more enjoyable gaming experience for all.

 

The point I am dismissing is not a valid (i.e. logical) point.  The point I am dismissing is a gross generalization and over simplification.

Do I have any hard data to support WHAT?

Too bad I never say "people who like PvP ruin the game for others on PvP server."  That is a gross misrepresentation of my comment, and thus that is a lame straw man and false dilemma.

I am not proposing anything.  I am explaining an issue by using my observations and discussions with other players.

Where do I say anything about wanting people to engage in a "risk free PvE on a PvP server"?  Nice try with that straw man by misrepresenting my comment.

Reasonable risk =/= Risk free

I don't have a clue how to reduce the amount of cheating.  I am not a programmer.

[BK-KnightRider]

21 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

Let's put the PvE server aside.

PvP servers do offer all experience of the game, with the PvE comfort and the PvP risk.

The raw truth is that all activities are bound to player choices, with no perceptible safety nets other than:

- basic cutter

All the rest is player made. 

The Newcomer zones were tested for a while in the Bahamas but the impression is that it was most used by veterans than by the newcomers themselves which, like all players, decided to stick mostly to the Nation capital and evolve from there.

but back to the baseline rule of PvP servers

- the moment you hit Sail and you are present in the OW things will happen two fold, when you want them to happen and when other player want them to happen.

 

Players themselves assume roles that are kin to age of sail occupations.

As you well put, there's no true way to play the game. Each one of us finds a role to play that provides quality fun while in character.

 

Multiplayer is the keyword. Friendly and unfriendly.

 

Snappy salute captain.

 

No, everything that happens is NOT solely the result of player choices.  The developers control which choices they incentivize and which choices they disincentivize or don't permit.  Players do not make their choices in a vacuum.

The Rookie zone effort was a laughable joke that was totally pointless the way it was implemented.  They should have put a rank limit of + or - one rank on who could attack whom.  A rookie zone that permits highly experienced veterans to prey upon noobs is/was a stupid idea.

[Hethwill]

What would be your incentive ?

Mine is making up a character, choosing a main occupation for it, and unfold the events that shape the story.

 

[BK-KnightRider]

21 hours ago, Archaos said:

Although the OP may raise valid points I think the problem sometimes is the Devs have tried to satisfy too many playstyles and that has led to a lot of back and forth in the game and in the long run even less people happy. The trick is finding the balance that keeps majority of people happy.

It is the same argument in every online game that I have played with people being classed as PvP'ers and PvE'ers the latter usually called "carebears", what most of them fail to realize is the biggest percentage of players are somewhere in between and they are usually the silent majority. The PvP'ers are always screaming for more PvP and for the game to force people out into the OW so that they have to fight, while the other extreme wants to do their PvE stuff in peace without being interrupted.

The real problem is not so much about PvPers wanting more PvP.  PvPers who want competitive PvP have zero problem finding it if they want to find it because they are constantly seeking out each other.  The real problem is with the PvPers who only want to bully easy marks who are not competitive.  There is nothing competitive about Rear Admirals attacking JOs (i.e. Junior Officers), especially when they outnumber their prey 3:1 or 4:1 or 5:1.  There is nothing competitive about cheating to get unfair advantages that are impossible to counter.  That is just bullying for the sake of bullying, plain and simple.

[BK-KnightRider]

21 hours ago, Hodo said:

So you have never heard of the Sheep, Wolf, Sheepdog comparison have you?

MMO PVPers, come in three basic flavors.

There are Sheep, the PVEr who wants nothing to do with PVP, and only wants to enjoy the little things in the game.  

The Wolves, who love to prey on the sheep, and generally only concerned with the hunt and kill.

And the Sheepdogs, who are there to enjoy all aspects of the game, but dont go seeking out PVP, but dont mind it when it happens. 

 

You sir are a sheep.  

Your analogy is great.  Your magical powers of telepathy and stereotyping are terrible.  I am no sheep.  I simply have a decent moral compass and sense of fairness.  Consequently, I never attack someone who is at a significant disadvantage.  I don't find winning combat that I can't lose because I outgun my opponent unsatisfying and unfun.  The tactical and strategic war games I grew up playing didn't permit that kind of bullying. Run don't walk to your nearest psychic to recalibrate those broken magical powers of telepathy.

[BK-KnightRider]

20 hours ago, Vllad said:

First: The proverbial "we" essentially means "you". By stating what you have you have already broken your own rules by trying to make everyone play the game that YOU want to play. I would start by living by your own standards first and accept that not everyone who enjoys PVP is a "bully" and is out to ruin every ones fun and not everyone wants to play the game you want to play.

Second: There are no titles to date that have even successfully built a PVP and PVE game on a single server. Either the PVP or PVE sucks when you combine them. This is no simple feat. That is not to say some came close but you make it sound so simple when in-fact it is very difficult. You are a perfect example of why PVP and PVE doesn't fit together and most of the time is mutually exclusive.

Third: The developers have given you a PVP server and a PVE server. If you don't want to PVP they have already given you an option so why in the world would you come here complaining about PVP? No one is forcing you to play on the PVP server, you did that not the developers. You are one of those players to logs in to play an FPS (first person shooter) than goes to there boards and constantly complains how FPS games suck. If you don't like them DON'T PLAY THEM!

BULL hockey pucks.  Great big stinking piles of fresh steamy BULL hockey pucks.  If by "we" I meant "me" then that is EXACTLY what I would write.

Learn to read better and to think better and develop a shred of integrity.  I NEVER say that "everyone who enjoys PVP is a 'bully.'"  That is YOUR dishonest misrepresentation. I NEVER say that everyone who enjoys PVP "is out to ruin every ones fun."  That is YOUR dishonest misrepresentation.  Me thinks thou doth protest too much because I struck a sensitive nerve.  I am not ascribing any such intent.  I am only describing the inevitable cause and effect.  Intent is totally irrelevant to my observation.

FACT:  Whether they intend to do it or not SOME PvP players are selfish bullies who ruin other people's fun.  Doing that is simply their nature.  Their intent is totally irrelevant to the reality of the cause and effect relationship that occurs.

EXACTLY how do I make anything sound so simple?  That is more nonsense.  I am simply describing reality.  Whether there is a solution, simple or complex, is another matter.

I am not complaining about PvP per se.  Try reading my comments again.

Yep, nobody is forcing me to do anything.  The issue of force is a totally irrelevant red herring.

ROFLMAO  Nice try with the lame stereotyping to fabricate a lame genetic fallacy.  I have never logged into any FPS game's board to complain about anything.

[Hethwill]

Many Rear Admirals perform worse than many Junior Lieutenants. Rank is a misleading guide sir.

Also, traders ( as in a trader ship ) have no rank. They are prime targets for commerce raiders.

We all, all of we, did learn to play through really rough conditions.

A good PvPer is not made by roving against lesser targets. We did grow by getting ourselves into tough spots and learn from the best, even with losing over and over again.