Eliminate Port Battle Requirements

[EL LOCO]

Due to recent mega patch. It seems port battle requirements (beside shallow) is no longer needed.   Why..?  Because the game would be more fluid, unknown and decisive.   You attack salem in 24 agams but there is 5 1st rates and 20 agams.   .     Simple solution that needs attention. 

[Archaos]

I dont do many port battles, but if the restrictions were removed then wouldnt every not shallow water PB become a first rate battle?

I am all for mixed fleet port battles but how to achieve this without having to resort to a lobby system would be difficult.

[EL LOCO]

you cannot sail a 1st rate into shallow waters.      Just get rid of these restrictions. it is unfair and ruining gameplay.

[Rychu Karas]

I would like to see PBs limits driven by battle rating. It forces the battle commanders to design the fleet composite instead of putting monolithic 25 the same ship/fit/gun/repair number.

More varienty=more fun

Like Alliance Tournament in eve, Cap point limits. very well designed. each ship costs a certain amount of points. So the commander decides if he wants to have 3 heavy ships or maybe 10 smaller lighter but these 10 can kill these 3 strong.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Rychu Karas

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Rychu Karas said:

I would like to see PBs limits driven by battle rating. It forces the battle commanders to design the fleet composite instead of putting monolithic 25 the same ship/fit/gun/repair number.

More varienty=more fun

This has been raised in other threads and I think most players agree with it, the problem is how do you achieve it short of having a PB lobby which would detract from the OW side of the game. The PB commanders already struggle to stop randoms entering battles, so how do they manage when there are battle rating limits, some random entering in a 1st rate suddenly takes up the space the commander had earmarked for 2 4th rates etc.

[Rychu Karas]

Just now, Archaos said:

This has been raised in other threads and I think most players agree with it, the problem is how do you achieve it short of having a PB lobby which would detract from the OW side of the game. The PB commanders already struggle to stop randoms entering battles, so how do they manage when there are battle rating limits, some random entering in a 1st rate suddenly takes up the space the commander had earmarked for 2 4th rates etc.

Because the game is bad designed, so we all suffer the consequence of it.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Rychu Karas said:

Because the game is bad designed, so we all suffer the consequence of it.

So what is the solution? Propose a system that will achieve what most people want.

[BungeeLemming]

The battles would only be restricted such that we cannot enter shallow regions with big ships. So what? One battle type that wouldnt even change at all.

All other battles will develop in 1st rate battles.

Much variety. Nothing to add here, is it?

[Jones el Tuerto]

Would be cool to see a mix of ships in port battles and not the same ship everywhere.

[Rychu Karas]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

So what is the solution? Propose a system that will achieve what most people want.

You don't need to have Ph.D. in computer science to distinguish if something works or not. The current system doesn't it's a fact.

How to solve it it's another story. Personally, I liked most of the solutions implemented in PoTBS and would like to see them in NA also. PvE, ROE, RvR, map resets. reputation system. A lot of good mechanisms which work sufficiently in my opinion.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Rychu Karas

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Rychu Karas said:

You don't need to have Ph.D. in computer science to distinguish if something works or not. The current system doesn't it's a fact.

How to solve it it's another story. Personally, I liked most of the solution implemented in PoTBS and would like to see them in NA also. PvE, ROE, RvR, map resets. reputation system. A lot of good mechanisms wich work sufficiently in my opinion.

I'm not saying the current system works, but you need to have some system. Many systems have been proposed but I think you will find that most have some flaws which also make them not work. Look through the many threads on the subject and you will see arguments and counter arguments, hence my comment about proposing a system that works rather than just saying the current system does not work due to bad design.

I never played PoTBS after early access, but I have heard people mention a few good things about some of the systems from that game. I also think care should be taken implementing systems from what is essentially a failed game without ensuring they will work in this game.

You originally said PB fleets should be based on a battle rating limit to allow mixed fleets, and I pointed out that this has been raised before in other threads and it was difficult to find a solution of how to achieve this without going down a port battle lobby route which would detract from the OW nature of this game. I hope that NA Legends or whatever they will eventually call it will have such a lobby system to set up different battles, but that is another topic.

You also have to look at why PB's are limited to 25v25, is it because they want it to be a level playing field or is it because that is the maximum the game can handle? If the game could handle more, you could forget screening altogether and allow anyone that turned up to enter the battle, I am sure they would be epic battles with multiple types of ships, but sadly I dont think the system could handle that.

[Rychu Karas]

5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I'm not saying the current system works, but you need to have some system. Many systems have been proposed but I think you will find that most have some flaws which also make them not work. Look through the many threads on the subject and you will see arguments and counter arguments, hence my comment about proposing a system that works rather than just saying the current system does not work due to bad design.

I never played PoTBS after early access, but I have heard people mention a few good things about some of the systems from that game. I also think care should be taken implementing systems from what is essentially a failed game without ensuring they will work in this game.

You originally said PB fleets should be based on a battle rating limit to allow mixed fleets, and I pointed out that this has been raised before in other threads and it was difficult to find a solution of how to achieve this without going down a port battle lobby route which would detract from the OW nature of this game. I hope that NA Legends or whatever they will eventually call it will have such a lobby system to set up different battles, but that is another topic.

You also have to look at why PB's are limited to 25v25, is it because they want it to be a level playing field or is it because that is the maximum the game can handle? If the game could handle more, you could forget screening altogether and allow anyone that turned up to enter the battle, I am sure they would be epic battles with multiple types of ships, but sadly I dont think the system could handle that.

PoTBS didn't fail, it died 6-7 years after the release in 2008.(some of the players still play).I wish NA to be as good as potbs was.

[Malachy]

I'd like to see port battles limited to allowing no more than  3 first rates to join, 5 2nd rates, 5 3rd rate, 6 4th and 6 5th rates. Once a class fills up, the game no longer permits that class to join. However if the 1st rates didn't join, after 3 minutes, the system would allow you to substitute smaller ships to replace them. Same with 2nds and 3rds and so on. 

The advantages would be multitude:  no more 1st on 1st port battles, we would have to use real tactics instead of the current stupidity, a lost battle would turn into a rout and the losers objectives would be to defend their retreating rated ships. Everyone would be able to participate and the elite few wouldn't be able to berate someone for coming in a smaller ship. Plus the battles would be much more realistic and like naval engagements of bygone years. 

[Salty Dog.]

I think all port battles ships should be allowed by the BR rating.  So either you can get 25 4th rates or 10 1st rates or a mixture of all rates before you hit the BR limit.  That way they may choose to mix up the fleet.  

I don't think there has ever been a battle in history with ONLY 1st rates.  Plus, historical speaking... the most common ship of the line was the third rates but because we only limit line ship battles by the number of ships, all we get are 1st rate fleets.

[Tiedemann]

I do not agree with the OP.

4 hours ago, EL LOCO said:

  You attack salem in 24 agams but there is 5 1st rates and 20 agams.   .     Simple solution that needs attention. 

What we need is new shallows that limit the 3. - 1. rates to enter the area/region around 4. rate ports. It makes perfect sense because it is realistic. The hulls on 3. - 1. rates would run to deep so they can not enter the area.

I do not see any reason to change the line up or implement BR limitations. In 1. rate pbs we have 3 ships to chose from. They all have pros and cons. It should be as balanced for the 4. rate and 6. rates as well. Then we can pick what ship to use according to our own play style and we would get more variety. 

If I end up having to sail a f...ing Snow when my mates are sailing Ships of the Line, just because you guys fancy watching more mixed fleets fighting ingame. I will come back here and rage until I get banned!  

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

I'd like to see port battles limited to allowing no more than  3 first rates to join, 5 2nd rates, 5 3rd rate, 6 4th and 6 5th rates. Once a class fills up, the game no longer permits that class to join. However if the 1st rates didn't join, after 3 minutes, the system would allow you to substitute smaller ships to replace them. Same with 2nds and 3rds and so on. 

The advantages would be multitude:  no more 1st on 1st port battles, we would have to use real tactics instead of the current stupidity, a lost battle would turn into a rout and the losers objectives would be to defend their retreating rated ships. Everyone would be able to participate and the elite few wouldn't be able to berate someone for coming in a smaller ship. Plus the battles would be much more realistic and like naval engagements of bygone years. 

This is a good suggestion that has been raised and discussed previously. But the issue is how does the battle commander pre-plan his strategy when the battle is open to anyone who has gained hostility. You will end up replacing battles of 25 v 25 1st rates with battles of fixed numbers of the maximum classes that are allowed, because battle commanders would ensure they had the requisite number of each class of vessel available to join the battle before the 3 minutes was up and random smaller vessels could join. So every battle would become  3 first rates, 5 2nd rates, 5 3rd rate, 6 4th and 6 5th rates or whatever the set figures were against the same defending fleet.

[Malachy]

33 minutes ago, Archaos said:

This is a good suggestion that has been raised and discussed previously. But the issue is how does the battle commander pre-plan his strategy when the battle is open to anyone who has gained hostility. You will end up replacing battles of 25 v 25 1st rates with battles of fixed numbers of the maximum classes that are allowed, because battle commanders would ensure they had the requisite number of each class of vessel available to join the battle before the 3 minutes was up and random smaller vessels could join. So every battle would become  3 first rates, 5 2nd rates, 5 3rd rate, 6 4th and 6 5th rates or whatever the set figures were against the same defending fleet.

The battle is already open to any who gain hostility. I probably won't ever have a 1st rate, I detest them. But that sure as hell won't stop me from bringing my bellona if I want to go to a port battle. If the commander can't deal he or she isn't much of a commander imho. A plan never survives contact with the enemy. A good commander can improvise.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Malachy

[Archaos]

7 minutes ago, Malachy said:

The battle is already open to any who gain hostility. I probably won't ever have a 1st rate. But that sure as hell won't stop me from bringing my bellona if I want to go to a port battle. If the commander can't deal he or she isn't much of a commander imho

You mentioned in your earlier post that having a mixed fleet in a port battle would allow for some real tactics? How can the battle commander apply real tactics when he is not aware in advance of what assets are at his disposal until the battle starts? It just becomes a free for all then and the side that gets the better ships in or the side that has more disciplined players who agree in advance who and what ships will enter the battle will have the advantage.

[Malachy]

29 minutes ago, Archaos said:

You mentioned in your earlier post that having a mixed fleet in a port battle would allow for some real tactics? How can the battle commander apply real tactics when he is not aware in advance of what assets are at his disposal until the battle starts? It just becomes a free for all then and the side that gets the better ships in or the side that has more disciplined players who agree in advance who and what ships will enter the battle will have the advantage.

A good commander has dozens of scenarios in mind and tactical flexibility to design a strategy on the spot. And he does know what he most likely will be dealing with, based on the class limits.

[theprof739]

2 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

I do not see any reason to change the line up or implement BR limitations. In 1. rate pbs we have 3 ships to chose from. They all have pros and cons. It should be as balanced for the 4. rate and 6. rates as well. Then we can pick what ship to use according to our own play style and we would get more variety. 

this is where I have a problem with the system, for Lineship port battles, that really just means 1st rates, no need for 2nd or 3rd rates. Same story with the 4th rate battles right now you have 2 choices Agamemnon or Constitution. This lack of utility for other ships I think is a serious let down. 

I do like the idea of more dynamic shallows, where there are channels and region where the 1st and 2nd rates couldn't operate, but 3rd and 4th rates could, and even shallows for 5th and 6th rates to move about it, where the could come out to harass the bigger ships targeting sails, but then duck back into the shallows for safety. 

[Vernon Merrill]

We need bathymetry in game...   been saying it for 2 years.  

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

The only system preventing grievance i can think about would be to open ranked slots via ship requirement from the smaller to the bigger.

 

 What i mean in a lineship PB:

 

 

- First only one slot is open for an unranked ship up to 4th rate with enought hostility (mortar/fireships frig/consti/agga/speedboat).

- When this slot is taken, two 3rd rate ranked ships slots opens (Bellona or "3rd rate")

- For a 3rd rate ranked ship in the battle, either one first rate slot open or two 2nd rate or three 3rd (or one 2nd+two 3rd)

- Unranked slots reopen if all previously opened slots are filled by something else than 3rd rate or no one fills the slots after a countdown.

 

 That way let's imagine:

 A squadron could send first one mortar brig, then two bellona (for the unranked), then six bello  (from the two 3rd), then two bucc + four bello + four victory (from the six 3rd), then three others victory + 1 Bucc + 2 Bello (from the four 3rd) = 25 ships. [1brig/ 14 Bello /  3Bucc /  7 Victory]

 

With each fleet able to choose how to maximize the potential of his line-up with a lot of variation possible but no possiblity of full 1st rate PB: you have to bring diversity and 3rd rates are the main tool to open larger ships as they should.

 

Such system would require another slightly larger circle zone onto the pb location preventing ow battles on the pb location (screening must be outside the location of the pb, not preventing ships on location to enter while waiting for slot to open)

 

Ofc this can be thinked better and adjusted, it's just a global idea on how to enforce mixed PB with more diversity while limiting grievance potential.

Another anti-grievance system would be to have to buy a pb flagship item on a national port to get the option to group 25 players, only those in this group can enter the port battle (group's players can be kicked & added until the pb is closed.)