Hotfix 1 for patch 10.3

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Outside a capital that won't happen due to the fact that capital areas are populated and you've got a 3 min join timer which even allows ships in port to prepare their ship and join the battle, which would have taken way longer IRL.

You can't find any pvp NOT in enemy waters (except becoming a revenge fleeter yourself, but nah). I have never had a single pvp battle in the middle of the ocean in no nations waters due to the fact that it's empty and no reason for anyone to be there.

You should be able to attack ships without the enemy being able to create a revenge fleet IMO, because it's supposed to ressemble reality, and in reality the Constitution didn't have to deal with inteleporting ships after the Java surrendered to her. Game is advertised as hardcore.

 ow speeds are same for everyone .. the ow speed that allows a captain to sail from for example la navasse to port morant .. applies equally to the ships that are sat in port morant ..if you want the ships in morant not to be able to prepare and leave ..you have to expect real time sailing from la navasse .. which would kill the game dead

the difficulty comes when you bring real life scenarios and apply them to a game ... how many pvp battles do you want in your gaming day ?? 1.2.3 maybe 4 .. in real life battles or ship to ship confrontations were not a regular occurance ... therefore your in game mid ocean experiences where there is no one .. is the hardcore game ..

the sailing off ajn enemy capital having 3-4 pvp battles a day is arcade play

since you brought it up as an example when attacking the Java .. the Constitution was running the risk that a larger more powerfull squadron was just over the horizon ..it was a common tactic for a lone ship when attacked ..to fly the signal "enemy in sight" to put the attacker in doubt that its prey was alone ..

had a larger force been with the Java  and out of sight of the constituition ..the constituation equally wouldnt have been able to just log off dissapear j.or tp to Boston or nearest port its captain would have had to break off the engagement and make a run for it .

maybe an option to simulate this is an extend map where you can see ow when in a battle instance and if you see a revenge fleet coming you can break off your attack and leave battle and make a run for it

 

 

[Liq]

11 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

 ow speeds are same for everyone .. the ow speed that allows a captain to sail from for example la navasse to port morant .. applies equally to the ships that are sat in port morant ..if you want the ships in morant not to be able to prepare and leave ..you have to expect real time sailing from la navasse .. which would kill the game dead

the difficulty comes when you bring real life scenarios and apply them to a game ... how many pvp battles do you want in your gaming day ?? 1.2.3 maybe 4 .. in real life battles or ship to ship confrontations were not a regular occurance ... therefore your in game mid ocean experiences where there is no one .. is the hardcore game ..

the sailing off ajn enemy capital having 3-4 pvp battles a day is arcade play

since you brought it up as an example when attacking the Java .. the Constitution was running the risk that a larger more powerfull squadron was just over the horizon ..it was a common tactic for a lone ship when attacked ..to fly the signal "enemy in sight" to put the attacker in doubt that its prey was alone ..

had a larger force been with the Java  and out of sight of the constituition ..the constituation equally wouldnt have been able to just log off dissapear j.or tp to Boston or nearest port its captain would have had to break off the engagement and make a run for it .

maybe an option to simulate this is an extend map where you can see ow when in a battle instance and if you see a revenge fleet coming you can break off your attack and leave battle and make a run for it

 

 

Exactly, "enemy in sight" could be seen by nearby ships (NOT ships docked in port) so they could come and help. Hence the three minute timer.

If you are simply not within 3 minute ish range of a battle, Why would you be able to join? Or be able to form a revenge fleet?

So the java would have had to somehow communicate or send mail pigeons to get help which I dont think happened.

Limiting the amount of pvp you can have because too much pvp is arcadey? Am I missing something?

Edited June 28, 2017 by Liquicity

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Exactly, "enemy in sight" could be seen by nearby ships so they could come and help. Hence the three minute timer.

If you are simply not within 3 minute ish range of a battle, Why would you be able to join? Or be able to form a revenge fleet?

So the java would have had to somehow communicate or send mail pigeons to get help which I dont think happened.

Limiting the amount of pvp you can have because too much pvp is arcadey? Am I missing something?

 

think the point your missing is you want hardcore rules to apply for the people your attacking ... they cannot leave port and either join or assemble  a revenge fleet because in real life that wouldnt happen ...but arcadey rules for the attackers ...you can attack without interference once your in battle instance ...and then can teleport away or leave battle without consequence .. there has to be a middle ground ..

 

[C0deX]

The present solution is better than the required solution of the gankers.

If u afraid of revange fleet, you can't hunt some people near enemy ports.

The biggest problem is everyone wants to kill other players without problems. In a fair fight there is no revenge fleet.

Fighting with 5 vs 1 have already stopped enough new players. It's also no fun when new players spend days for a snow to lose it against 5 suprise with max rank.

Many complain as if they were alone against a revenge fleet. But most of the time they fight with many friends against players who are just alone.

 

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, C0deX said:

The present solution is better than the required solution of the gankers.

If u afraid of revange fleet, you can't hunt some people near enemy ports.

The biggest problem is everyone wants to kill other players without problems. In a fair fight there is no revenge fleet.

Fighting with 5 vs 1 have already stopped enough new players. It's also no fun when new players spend days for a snow to lose it against 5 suprise with max rank.

Many complain as if they were alone against a revenge fleet. But most of the time they fight with many friends against players who are just alone.

 

to be fair ive never seen liquicity and others posting here do that ...... but plenty do

[Grundgemunkey]

if you want a fair realistic game .. the only way to do it is we sail everywhere at battle instance speeds .. it wont work the distances are too great

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

 

think the point your missing is you want hardcore rules to apply for the people your attacking ... they cannot leave port and either join or assemble  a revenge fleet because in real life that wouldnt happen ...but arcadey rules for the attackers ...you can attack without interference once your in battle instance ...and then can teleport away or leave battle without consequence .. there has to be a middle ground ..

 

Rules are simple

If you were not in a reasonable range of a ship that got attacked, you cannot join the battle. After a battle the winning ship would sail back to port without having to deal with revenge fleets. As we have communication ingame there needs to be another workaround.

I dont want to favor anyone but to have realistic and hardcore game mechanics as the game is advertised on the steam shop site 

[C0deX]

5 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

to be fair ive never seen liquicity and others posting here do that ...... but plenty do

My last post was not personal against a certain player.

You know me and I love fair pvp.

But also u see what happened every day with our newbies.

[Liq]

7 minutes ago, C0deX said:

In a fair fight there is no revenge fleet.

Bruh

I had a 1v2 (me in a cecilia vs 2 surps). They chained me to death so they could leave the battle and join up the other 8 guys they called for and which profited from the OW speed boost. Eventually they managed to kill me in a 10v1.

Admin said himself, any time you leave port you should be aware of the fact tjat you can loose your ship.

If you dont see revenge fleets being broken af and that not matching with the games description "hardcore and realistic", discussing is pointless

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, Liquicity said:

Rules are simple

If you were not in a reasonable range of a ship that got attacked, you cannot join the battle. After a battle the winning ship would sail back to port without having to deal with revenge fleets. As we have communication ingame there needs to be another workaround.

I dont want to favor anyone but to have realistic and hardcore game mechanics as the game is advertised on the steam shop site 

we have to agree to disaree mate ....why should you be able to sail at from la navasse to morant in 20 minutes ... yet people cannot use the same ow speed advantage to counter your attack  by sailing for 4 minutes

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

we have to agree to disaree mate ....why should you be able to sail at from la navasse to morant in 20 minutes ... yet people cannot use the same ow speed advantage to counter your attack  by sailing for 4 minutes

Can you explain? I dont understand that port morant example

[Grundgemunkey]

i dont know how to make it  clearer

you use the ow speed advantage .. to get from for example ..la navasse to morant in 20 mins   you attack a ship near morant

your now saying that its unfair that other players use the same ow speed advantage to leave morant  and  join your battle .. or wait outside ..

i dont dont know the answer to it ,,,, how to make it fairer ...but its the same for everyone ...so thats as fair as it can get 

maybe they give you say 10 minutes longer in battle  and you come  out of battle at the same spot you left it at.. rather than where you joined the battle

 

[C0deX]

15 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

Bruh

I had a 1v2 (me in a cecilia vs 2 surps). They chained me to death so they could leave the battle and join up the other 8 guys they called for and which profited from the OW speed boost. Eventually they managed to kill me in a 10v1.

Admin said himself, any time you leave port you should be aware of the fact tjat you can loose your ship.

If you dont see revenge fleets being broken af and that not matching with the games description "hardcore and realistic", discussing is pointless

Do u really want to Talk about NA's realism here? With tp - invisibility - speedcap - 100 flagships - more human losses every week than the participating countries had residents at this time?

This discussion is really pointless.

I know it's currently unfair for some gentlemen among us. But the necessary changes would make the black sheeps even stronger. But if we want to play with 300 people again, we are on a good path.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, TommyShelby said:

Yeah its tough to come up with something that cannot be abused. 
I'd be fine with long enough invisibility that i can either log off or try and make a run for it. Problem is, as pointed out earlier, previous testing of invisibility has shown that it will be abused very much. 
Personally, TP to nearest Free Port or invisibility is fine for me.

There shouldn't be Pass Jail cards mate. Yeah if invisibility is 2 minutes then if you log off you should become visible instantly. You will have to make a run for it

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

i dont know how to make it  clearer

you use the ow speed advantage .. to get from for example ..la navasse to morant in 20 mins   you attack a ship near morant

your now saying that its unfair that other players use the same ow speed advantage to leave morant  and  join your battle .. or wait outside ..

i dont dont know the answer to it ,,,, how to make it fairer ...but its the same for everyone ...so thats as fair as it can get 

maybe they give you say 10 minutes longer in battle  and you come  out of battle at the same spot you left it at.. rather than where you joined the battle

 

Well then the ships at morant have 3 minutes to join the battle? Im fine with that

But im not fine with the revenge fleets if it was proven for there to not be ships in range (3 min is plenty)

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, C0deX said:

Do u really want to Talk about NA's realism here? With tp - invisibility - speedcap - 100 flagships - more human losses every week than the participating countries had residents at this time?

This discussion is really pointless.

I know it's currently unfair for some gentlemen among us. But the necessary changes would make the black sheeps even stronger. But if we want to play with 300 people again, we are on a good path.

I dont play this game for the rvr aspect but to have good battles. If the RoE dont allow that, I post my opinion.

But I guess you are all right. NA now is a primary RvR focussed game with little to no space for dedicated pvp players (ganking doesnt have much to do with pvp imo).

Hoping NA Legends will be better. Cant be bothered anymore to try and enjoy the sandbox version.

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Well then the ships at morant have 3 minutes to join the battle? Im fine with that

But im not fine with the revenge fleets if it was proven for there to not be ships in range (3 min is plenty)

well i dont know how to stop it mate .. if your outside morant in a battle .. that takes 60 minutes ... how many ships will pass that battle in 60 minutes ...

you used the constition v java as an example .. in reality the damage to hull and sail  would have taken days to repair .. the crew losses would not have been replaced utill the ship reached port ... so just as a revenge fleet been unrealistic ..so is instant repair of your ship ... 

 

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

well i dont know how to stop it mate .. if your outside morant in a battle .. that takes 60 minutes ... how many ships will pass that battle in 60 minutes ...

you used the constition v java as an example .. in reality the damage to hull and sail  would have taken days to repair .. the crew losses would not have been replaced utill the ship reached port ... so just as a revenge fleet been unrealistic ..so is instant repair of your ship ... 

 

A lot of ships will sail past but simply due to the fact OW is compressed and speed is boosted compared to battle instances

I know we cant have battle speeds in OW. But as we have two dimensions, a balance needs to be found which is missing atm

Do you want 90min open battles?

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, Liquicity said:

A lot of ships will sail past but simply due to the fact OW is compressed and speed is boosted compared to battle instances

I know we cant have battle speeds in OW. But as we have two dimensions, a balance needs to be found which is missing atm

Do you want 90min open battles?

nope ... I agree you with you ...what your missing is although you play the game for pvp  ...lots will abuse for ganking ... the revenge fleet is the balance for ganking

[C0deX]

19 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

Well then the ships at morant have 3 minutes to join the battle? Im fine with that

But im not fine with the revenge fleets if it was proven for there to not be ships in range (3 min is plenty)

I understand your displeasure. But offen the attacks are directly in front of the coast and the port. A good possibility this is seen. A fully functional and ready-to-go frigate takes 20-30 minutes to sail.

Because it is near the coast or at the port, it's does not take days to sail there.

Any other combat ship in sight would also attack (AI)

 

[Liq]

4 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

nope ... I agree you with you ...what your missing is although you play the game for pvp  ...lots will abuse for ganking ... the revenge fleet is the balance for ganking

I dont think you can call it an abuse to attack while outnumbering, even though I personally dont do it (if the game is supposed to be hardcore)

[Spitfire83]

I've personally pretty much quit PvP, probably no great loss to the game but tbh I'm fed up with ganking and counter ganging I don't really want to be part of it and it seems to be all some people do day in and day out..

How many gank fleets have now moved to freetowns near to Belize because kpr is dead. Lots and lots they have no real intention on raising hostility  just ganking whatever they find. 

So what's the solution  to that problem other then revenge fleets??

It's bad for the game in general but this appears to be the community we have left now,  mechanics that make it easy and unfortunately  you get rewarded for the behavior.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Spitfire83

[TommyShelby]

25 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

nope ... I agree you with you ...what your missing is although you play the game for pvp  ...lots will abuse for ganking ... the revenge fleet is the balance for ganking

So make it so only the gankers get revenge ganked? 

600 BR vs 300 BR. The side with 300 BR gets the "TP to nearest Free Port" option and the one with 600 BR only gets invisibility (1 minute or whatever). 
300 BR vs 300 BR. Both sides get the "TP to nearest Free Port" option. 

Where to make the cut off between ganking and not ganking? Good question! 

How to make it so people can't use alt's to abuse this system? Good question! 
- Almost all mechanics can be abused by people using Alt's. To solve this problem we have to solve the issue of Alts first. 
- How to solve it? Perhaps implement a feature which, every time 2 people with same IP are on different sides in a battle, makes a report for the devs. Devs can then check it out. (Yes, extra work for devs.) 

[akd]

55 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

nope ... I agree you with you ...what your missing is although you play the game for pvp  ...lots will abuse for ganking ... the revenge fleet is the balance for ganking

If ganking is primary concern, then it needs to be addressed directly.   Revenge fleets just encourage more ganking and drive more and more people from the game.

We had an equitable solution that addressed specific issue of unfair fights being created in areas where defender had strong possibility of reinforcement (so called "safe waters"): signal perk.  Bring it back and allow 1.2x-1.5x BR reinforcement for 5-10 minutes.  Make it explicit in the OW: signal perk adds a "help me" flare effect to the battle marker.

Then allow option to stop playing if you win or escape a battle.  I don't care what form this takes, but you must allow players to stop playing after fighting and surviving a battle.  Opportunity to log-off (with hard no-attack penalty when logging back) or TP to nearest deep water port is a balanced solution that favors players in their own home waters.  You still suffer a revenge fleet penalty (blocked from playing; still have to extract yourself from unsafe area when you log back in), but aren't held hostage to your PC.  This time / game-play blocking penalty is applied whether you just fought a 1.5hour fair battle or participated in a gank, so is fairly harsh and indiscriminate as a balance for ganking, thus things are still tilted toward the carebear side, but at least not in a fatal, game-destroying way.

Edited June 28, 2017 by akd

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

The pre-wipe "escape to nearest friendly harbor" postbattle option solved the revenge fleet problem, but was abused by traders, countertag or by tagging ai. I liked this option but i understand how revenge fleet is not totallybad and allow more ow action & presence.

 

The perfect balance in my opinion would be to create a post battle screen option with the ow map and a ring centered on the inital tag location and a size depending on the duration of the battle (until "battle over" message appear). Player can then choose to appear anywhere inside the ring in the ow (except on land obviously). If he wait too much (past the 15mn after fight is over) he appears on the location of the tag like he do now. 

So revenge/defence fleets can still wait  to intercept survivors, but the longer the fight, the harder it will be to find/reach the escape location. = no tp abuse, not more fight denial, but a hard fighted battle grant good chances to escape safely, and if you were baiting someone so a larger fleet wait for him, you can surrender as soon as you can, then the attacker will still have the same chances to escape he have right now (invisibility, etc.) so still a few chances.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Baptiste Gallouédec