Devs say every ship is unique. What characteristics can they have?

[maturin]

To my delight, the devs have stated that even within a class, each ship will have its own 'personality' and handling characteristics, determined by hidden stats.

I want to support this excellent idea by throwing out a few reality-inspired properties that each ship could have (or lack) to make it unique. Because ships of course, moreso than anything else created by human hands, have souls. Everyone should post their own ideas as well.

 

Inherent properties of ships:

 

Ardent or Slack. In layman's terms, upwind vs. downwind turning ability. Rig balance notwithstanding, some ships are 'ardent' and naturally require a lot of weather helm for mysterious reasons. This can make them difficult to sail, but if you need to tack really fast, it can only work in your favor. Conversely, a ship might be slack and always be wanting to fall off the wind, which is handy if you want an easy downwind turn.

 

Stiff or crank. A stiff ship heels and rolls less than a crank ship, which is a clear boon for gunners. Stiff ships can be very uncomfortable to live on, so maybe morale could take a slight hit as a penalty for this advantage.

 

Best point of sail. A square rigger isn't necessarily only good at going downwind. Our famous HMS Surprise was "happiest on a bowline," which means sailing closehauled. The replica brig Niagara has a top speed of 10 knots, but has made 9 knots or more sailing upwind. There can be a lot of difference here. A dull sailor might struggle along going a half its top speed when closehauled, while another vessel could be tearing along without a care. Some ships might prefer the wind abeam, some might suffer less when sailing dead downwind.

 

Best in light airs or half a gale. Some ships sail well in a 'hatfull' of wind, tripping along quite happily in light airs. The same ship may or may not struggle in high winds and heavy seas, wallowing and pitching excessively. And some ships are good seagoing craft that just go faster as windspeed increases.

 

Soundness of planking. Some craft are better built than others, which will become apparent as the hull starts taking damage from gunfire or waves. If your planking is good, it will be easier to plug holes and leaks. If not, then plugging one shot hole may open up other seams.

 

Best tack. Most wooden ships are asymmetrical to some degree, meaning that they when closehauled they will perform better on one tack or the other, with up to a knot difference in speed.

 

Griping and control issues. Some ships tend to lurch to windward violently at inconvenient times. Or the bow is always wandering about, the wheel trying to jolt itself free of the helmsman. In-game, certain ships could suffer small penalties to rudder response times under certain courses, speeds and conditions to simulate the helmsman struggling against the ship.

[Sir. Cunningham]

So two Bellona class ships built to the same specs in the same shipyard won't sail pretty much the same? I understand that there might be small miniscule and unnoticable differences of course, but I must admit that I find it a bit hard to believe that two such ships wouldn't sail virtually the same - providing the materials used and worksmanship was the same.

 

That having been said some references would be nice 

[maturin]

So two Bellona class ships built to the same specs in the same shipyard won't sail pretty much the same? I understand that there might be small miniscule and unnoticable differences of course, but I must admit that I find it a bit hard to believe that two such ships wouldn't sail virtually the same - providing the materials used and worksmanship was the same.

 

That having been said some references would be nice 

Specs are only as good as the shipwrights that follow them. That's a tall order, so far as 18th century technology is concerned. There are always going to be differences with something as large as a wooden warship, which is constantly flexing and decaying from the moment the first timbers are laid down. And how can the materials be the same? The most they can do is come from the same forest.

 

 

But anyways, I was thinking more of the game's ships. Every Bellona will not, of course, be built at the same time at the same shipyard. Rather, they will be built all over the gameworld, in different countries and climates.

[Sir. Cunningham]

I'm not saying there won't be differences, however again the differences in how they sail ought to be rather small if built in the same shipyard to the same specifications using the same materials. For example pretty much only two types of Oak were used for ship building in Europe, Quercus robur and Quercus petraea. A lot more depends on how the ships are outfitted in terms of equipment and cargo I believe.

 

Thus two same class ships built in the same shipyard ought also to feature pretty much the same sailing characteristics, until of course recieving their custom outfitting which differs depending on the role its Captain has intended for it.

 

Just my opinion..

[maturin]

That assumes that shipwright were even trying to build carbon copies of a given design. They really weren't. The days of mass-produced assembly line warships was far in the future.

 

Otherwise why would slow warships have even existed? No one tried to build something sub-par.
 

 

Quercus robur and Quercus petraea.

 

And all oaks of a given species are the same? Even after you cut them into beams and let them sit in a warehouse on the other side of a continent for several years?

[Sir. Cunningham]

That assumes that shipwright were even trying to build carbon copies of a given design. They really weren't. The days of mass-produced assembly line warships was far in the future.

 

 

It isn't about mass production, it's about following specifications, something they were very well capable of during the period. Hence if a certain design proved particularly successful it was designated a class and a number of sister ships built to the same specifications were constructed.

 

Otherwise why would slow warships have even existed? No one tried to build something sub-par.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but I don't follow that logic? Obviously you can't know if something performs well before you test it, and only the designs that are deemed successful would ever be copied.

 

And all oaks of a given species are the same? Even after you cut them into beams and let them sit in a warehouse on the other side of a continent for several years?

 

 

Again, beams were cut into certain specifications and shipyards most often had a regular supplier who brought in wood from nearby. Such practices had been carried long before the industrial revolution.

[akd]

We should probably stop thinking of the named ships in game as special snowflakes embodying very specific characteristics, but rather as class representatives that take the place of myriad ships serving similar roles over a broad span of time. In that sense, two "Surprises" could have very different charateristics. As long as these characteristics don't depart from the general capabilities and limitations of the design, there is a great deal of room for variation.

If you've deluded yourself into believing that there will actually be hundreds of unique 3D models of ships in the game, I would dial back expectations substantially. Great variety will only be had by some system of varying qualities across a more limited set of 3D models.

[maturin]

 

I'm sorry but I don't follow that logic? Obviously you can't know if something performs well before you test it, and only the designs that are deemed successful would ever be copied.

So you imagine that there were dozens of identically optimal frigates with only a few failed experiments here and there accounting for every subpar vessel on the ocean?

 

 

Again, beams were cut into certain specifications and shipyards most often had a regular supplier who brought in wood from nearby. Such practices had been carried long before the industrial revolution.

This forces me to ask... have you ever built anything? So much as a birdhouse?

 

 

If you've deluded yourself into believing that there will actually be hundreds of unique 3D models of ships in the game, I would dial back expectations substantially.

Obviously...

[Johny Reb]

Good debate I must say. Maturin has the upper hand logically speaking. For instance, certain parts of a ship may be made out of a "Y" in a trees trunk but these "Y"s vary very differently from tree to tree. One "Y" may have formed with very dense wood in the crux where the other one may not have. This would lead to one piece (identical in shape to the other one) would have tougher qualities then the other one.

[BungeeLemming]

All sounds good and logic.But I think thats a step too far.

 

In my understanding the developers said there can be ships of the same classification like the 74 gunners or 38 frigates.

But it depends on the shipplans how well they sail and how durable they are.

There was a thread about different wood types used. And devs said we can expect the shipyards to own the finest of materials for every single ship built.

 

So I think he question of for example sailing characteristics or over all durability can be answered/ found in the shipdesign.

French/ british/ spanish/ duch/ american/ etc...

 

 

About the discussion of copies..
There is a reason why shipyards need master-shipbuilders. Every ship from the same scratch has the overall characteristics in common.

The shipbuilder has to make the fit. He has to straighten some parts here and there since the wood is not like modern finished metal wich will stay in place once you fold it.

 

Thats the reality. But as devs stated the ingame shipyards will be 100% accurate to the plans and have all materials on hand.

[Vosper]

Even now in modern times no 2 ships of the same class are exactly alike, some of this depends on the availability of the components used, weights of some items differ affecting ballast and trim, so I believe this would be the same back then especially. 

After serving on 4 different ships, visiting several others and serving on several different small boats some of which were the same type, they all handled different.

[Baggywrinkle]

I'm with Maturin 100% both in general and with his suggested areas of variation. For both intended and incidental reasons, it is categorically correct that no two vessels are ever the same and the differences can be seen in their sailing characteristics. Hell, they're never even symmetrical! This is from direct experience rather than supposition or 'logic', that old chestnut...

I'd like to add one 'hard' variation and one 'soft':

Favoured Tack. Fore-and-aft asymmetry leads to different performance on each tack, most noticeable when hard on the wind. Up to a knot difference in speed, c. 10 degrees difference till free (pointing high does you no good under square or gaff rig, the important angle is when the boat frees up and starts to drive), and noticeable difference in weather helm (in reality giving speed and crew fatigue benefits). Later on this asymmetry would be a built in feature of some racing yachts to mitigate or take maximum advantage of a vessel on stb being the stand on vessel, that on port tack the give way.

The soft/woolly variation is that of 'a happy ship' vs. 'a wrong'un'. It is not just a function of the personalities on board, but definitely a function of the vessel herself. Some had, having earned, a reputuation as killers, others of looking after their crew. Now I'm far from religious or superstitious guy, but for whatever the real-world reasons, even just confirmation bias, the effects are very real. Reduced morale, slower work speed, increased maintenance costs etc are the real world symptoms, reverse them for the effects of a happy vessel.

Baggy

[Edward Vernon]

I am with Baggy and Maturin. I can honestly say even modern naval vessels all built to the same design and in the same shipyard with have their own individual characteristics. I can attest to this from my own experience.

[Mirones]

i might only row with a small 10 oar cutter but even on these smalle boats there are significant difrences between single series.

we have one wooden cutter with serial number 7 one of the first build in GDR and another one wo is roughly 15-20 years younger.

 

some are more narrower at the front some not, at our rowing race last september i was siting in both one of our Wooden cutters and one made out of ,,Plastic,, .

in the first round we managed a very close head to head victory with the plastic one who handles worse then the wooden one.

in the second round of course we wonn with roughly 1-1 1/2 boatlength.

 

there can be diffrents with the same class of ships but you will only see it on longer distances.

since 1min befor another Ship on an 30mile race would be rather unimportant factor and there are more inportant things the devs need to work on.

[AKPyrate]

Besides the primary material being impossible at the time (and even now to some degree) of being exactly the same, the well known American frigates of the Constitution class come to mind.  They all had very specific design specifications, yet were all different.  They were built in different yards, so that can have some effect on the differences, but it also shows that ships of the same plans can be built in different places (I believe Trincomalee was built in India, while sisters were built in Britain).  Although the same materials were used to the extent possible, the reality made that nearly impossible.  Furthermore, as these boats weren't built at the exact same time/rate, there are modifications that were made based on the experience of the others.  That still happens today (the U.S. Coast Guard 270' Famous class cutters come to mind-due to a change from the original length of 320', the first wave of them had a watertight door aft of the bridge that led to a bulkhead.  After the initial builds, the design was modified slightly and the additional bulkhead was removed).  The frigates were practically the same, although Congress and Constellation were designed slightly smaller and only fitted out with 36 guns instead of 44.  Constellation was known for being an extremely swift sailor and earned the nickname 'Yankee Racehorse'.  Chesapeake was about 12' shorter than the rest of the 36 gun class.  By the time the President was built, they altered the plans based on the experiences of the Constitution and United States.  The gun deck was raised by 2 inches, and the mainmast was moved 2 feet farther aft.

 

These inherent design differences, combined with the inevitable differences of the shipyard workers, sail makers, etc., would make for slightly different (in some cases very different) handling characteristics.  Combine these with 'captain initiated' changes, such as carronades vs. cannons (Constitution, for example, had her armament change over her career), possibly paying extra for 'bigger/more efficient' sails, having officers on board that can improve or decrease certain statistics, and all the other changes mentioned here and in other threads, and you've got yourself a unique boat.  If two sister ships are up against one another in a battle, then knowing these differences and capitalizing on them might edge the otherwise even battle in your favor.  However, a tactical mistake won't make up for a slightly faster or more weatherly boat in the long run.

 

 

The soft/woolly variation is that of 'a happy ship' vs. 'a wrong'un'. It is not just a function of the personalities on board, but definitely a function of the vessel herself. Some had, having earned, a reputuation as killers, others of looking after their crew. Now I'm far from religious or superstitious guy, but for whatever the real-world reasons, even just confirmation bias, the effects are very real. Reduced morale, slower work speed, increased maintenance costs etc are the real world symptoms, reverse them for the effects of a happy vessel.

 

I've mentioned something like this before in another thread, and I love the idea.  However, it would be nice if the morale wasn't initially good or bad (or if anything, a little better than average due to having a brand new boat).  The lucky/unlucky ship and its corresponding morale and efficiency effects should build in the ship over time based on how she's sailed, how she does in battle, whether the crew end up starving due to bad provisioning, if heavy losses are taken in battles, etc.  Obviously, having officers that improve morale can help change an unlucky ship into a lucky one over time (along with a couple of victories).

[Vosper]

As AKPyrate mentioned, When I was in the Coast Guard they came out with the Island Class Cutters (110') over the years they were building them There was the A, B and C class cutters. all 3 basically the same specs and built in the same shipyards. I was on a B class cutter that was only 2 years old when I served on it, got the chance to visit some of the A class and C Class, and they had different equipment sand slightly different layout and the C class were slightly slower due to a engine change. Then after I retired some of these boats were modified and made approx 10-15 feet longer. At one point the ship I was on was tested with a special bottom coating and coating on the Rudders and Fin stablizers to prevent marine growth on the hull which also made it slicker and actually increased top speed by about 1.5 kts.

[Sir. Cunningham]

I've no doubt that ships of the same design differed, esp. after they were individually outfitted for certain roles, or modified by the crews. However, if built in the same shipyard to the same specs, using the same materials, their sailing characteristics should also be similar providing they are equipped the same. Obviously they would start to differ as they were equipped differently according to the wishes of the captain, but straight out of the shipyard the differences ought to be minor.

 

If built in different shipyards however, well then the possibility for big differences are naturally higher, not only because of differences in worksmanship but also because of differences in materials.

[BungeeLemming]

I dont think its in the interest of the game to make every ship wich is newly build out of the shipyard different.

 

Ships should be identical when they first get to water. At least if you tell the shipqright to build it as such.

So two captains can order the identical ship. But we may as well be able to tell the shipbuilder to build the ship  with my likings.
Do I like better sailing characteristics or do I want to be heavier?

 

Such questions come in my mind when I think about this subject.

 

After the ship is done I customise it with the guns and maybe some tweaks to the rigging.

But the hull is fix. Only additional copper planking and minor tweaks are possible without an total overhaul.

[Edward Vernon]

I really can't agree with you there Bungee. The simple reality is that all ships are different, whether modern or older. The game should reflect that IMO.

[Mirones]

I really can't agree with you there Bungee. The simple reality is that all ships are different, whether modern or older. The game should reflect that IMO.

and there are more important things to do than an 38gun being 0.2knots faster at 135° then another 38gun of the same type.

sorry but i left potbs behind because of these fancy mods, again there are more inportant things that needs to be done befor we can think of these minor tweakings.

[sam0100]

There should be tradeoffs, not "mods".

 

Like POTBS, but not as much as an advantage.

 

e.g. if something increases your speed at x angle, it should decrease it in another area, by the same amount, and not improve it.

 

also, make them very very small mods if any at all, otherwise the sim is completely gone if we see a guy running around with 16lbers that do more damage then 24s

[Sir. Cunningham]

I dont think its in the interest of the game to make every ship wich is newly build out of the shipyard different.

 

Ships should be identical when they first get to water. At least if you tell the shipqright to build it as such.

So two captains can order the identical ship. But we may as well be able to tell the shipbuilder to build the ship  with my likings.

Do I like better sailing characteristics or do I want to be heavier?

 

Such questions come in my mind when I think about this subject.

 

After the ship is done I customise it with the guns and maybe some tweaks to the rigging.

But the hull is fix. Only additional copper planking and minor tweaks are possible without an total overhaul.

 

 

I agree Bungee.

[Edward Vernon]

Mirones....the devs (apparently) have already stated there will be these minor differences, so if that's the case we leave as is and accept it as realistic. Otherwise I agree if they are not there already then there are many far more important things to do first. But whatever, lets NOT refer to them as Mods because that suggests all kinds of things which should have NO place in NA (IMHO of course )

[maturin]

I dont think its in the interest of the game to make every ship wich is newly build out of the shipyard different.

The devs clearly think so. It adds unpredictability and tactical depth to gameplay, rewarding the player that takes time to experiment and learn the quirks of any given vessel.

Ships should be identical when they first get to water.

I think that is dull, dull, dull.

Do I like better sailing characteristics or do I want to be heavier?

I completely agree. We should be able to construct a ship slightly heavier or slightly sharper to tweak performance.

But just because you increase bulwark thickness doesn't mean that all the other properties I mentioned will be known ahead of time. People didn't know how to design for those attributes and to a large degree still don't. There's a lot of art in the science of shipbuilding.

The practical use of such a system is to create variety in ship stats without resorting to PotBS' horrible outfitting system, which did more to alienate players than ship loss in itself. A brand new frigate in that game was a worthless non-contender without the mods that became obligatory.

[Baggywrinkle]

Two things I've enjoyed about this. The first is the level of agreement - everyone who has mentioned RL experience at sea agrees with the devs - that's a massive positive.

The second provides perpetual entertainment on forums... The thread was clearly started to generate options that the devs might consider to provide microvariety within a class. Could we maybe do that now...?

Baggy