A story about ganking

[Jerome]

Let's talk about "ganking".  What is a gank?  For most players it is any fight that they start with any perceived disadvantage. 

Let's talk about this game.  This is a wide open world, very large.  The odds of two fighting forces matching open sea and having a "fair" fight is remote, to say the least.  So, intended or not, one side will usually be the "gankers" and the poor victims the "whiners on the forums".  There is just no way around it in an open world pvp game.

Or is there?  Various mechanics have been tried that have all resulted in loss of playability, and in my experience, player loss (multiple games I have seen it).  One of the giant attractions of this game for myself and others players I used to sail with was open world, unrestricted pvp.  Then came the mechanics, BR mechanics that resulted in people missing fights or getting split, mechanics that favored the defender (open battles near port with social), forts, npc fleets around capitals, etc.  Then personal fleets that intruded on the pvp, making it damn near impossible for a solo pirate to get much done. 

Either way, what did we see?  People leave the game.

Also, the failure to address a simple thing like battle screen camping.  I often log out at battle screen, either because I have to log (usually) or because I know a fleet is waiting outside for me.  Don't remove that, just incentive coming back out into the open sea with some help getting out of the immediate area.  Long invisibility, even longer cannot join battles?  Something so a player can leave a battle with some confidence of escaping a revenge fleet.

Look, you can sail around this damn game for literally hours and never see a single player sometimes.  And when you do, of course you and your mates all jump them because hallelujah it's a player to sink or capture.  If anything, the game mechanics should favor and encourage those that sail near enemy ports to hunt.  Give them a break.  Make this game what it once was, cutthroat pvp and disregard the losers whining about ganking.  Remember, for every one player crying about ganking, there are at least two more players high-fiving over his pool of tears and shattered timbers.  

Give us heat maps to find where the enemy does missions, trades, hides, whatever.  Put the "Action" back into "Naval ACTION".

 

[stormridersp]

8 hours ago, Jerome said:

Either way, what did we see?  People leave the game.

Also, the failure to address a simple thing like battle screen camping.  I often log out at battle screen, either because I have to log (usually) or because I know a fleet is waiting outside for me.  Don't remove that, just incentive coming back out into the open sea with some help getting out of the immediate area.  Long invisibility, even longer cannot join battles?  Something so a player can leave a battle with some confidence of escaping a revenge fleet.

Look, you can sail around this damn game for literally hours and never see a single player sometimes.  And when you do, of course you and your mates all jump them because hallelujah it's a player to sink or capture.  If anything, the game mechanics should favor and encourage those that sail near enemy ports to hunt.  Give them a break.  Make this game what it once was, cutthroat pvp and disregard the losers whining about ganking.  Remember, for every one player crying about ganking, there are at least two more players high-fiving over his pool of tears and shattered timbers.  

Give us heat maps to find where the enemy does missions, trades, hides, whatever.  Put the "Action" back into "Naval ACTION".

You have some good points there, but at the same time, imo, you´re missing some. That player who ends up ganked and frustrated is the one whos gonna leave the game. We need players here: Its currently very empty as you already pointed out.

First of all, for me, anything that can be considered a cheat or, in anyway, raises a barrier between OW and Battle is something unwanted. Imo, the transition between OW and Battle, and from Battle to OW should be seamless. Right now there any many barriers like a count down timer for allied forces to join in a battle, there´s this Battle Screen Camping which allows those escapers to hide from sight and log out, there are the many AI fleets everywhere being pulled into PVPs, there´s the "hidden" players fleets that only really show up in-battle and so on.

For one, imagine this situation in a real-life perspective: You´re sailing your Frigate like ship, and get tagged by an enemy gank who´s every so often getting closer and closer to your own nation´s capital. You´re tagged, alone, somewhere in-sight of populated friendly port. You get into battle and notice that there are AI ship, from the ganks fleet everywhere, dozens and you have no chance, so you go into your nations´ chat and type SOS. A lot of friendly comes for your help, but can´t join the battle because of some burocratic game mechanic, I mean, in real-life, if you´re sailing in OW, there is no countdown timer to join a battle cause the battle happens in OW. Then in this battle, you somehow managed to escape, maybe because you´re a coward (the officer perk that is!) and you decide to just sit and hide in the Battle Screen, I mean, in real-life, you don´t escape a battle not until you really escaped and the pursuers gave up the chase! The result of all this is that ganking as it is right now, is an act of cowardice because it uses the game mechanics in the attackers favor. In real life, if you go attack someone near his own port, you´re better be prepared for a decisive type of battle cause there will be reinforcements as long as the battle is going. By shutting it off, you´re allowing ganks to get ever so close and act in such an unrealistic way that ends up being even more frustrating for the ganked. Perhaps introducing a game mechanic that allows players to join in the ganked´s side until the battle ratio is about 1:1, and only then shutting it off.

My second point is that PVP should be by itself the most encouraged kind of play in the game. Right now, and I enforce that its only my opinion, the rewards for pvp, most of the time, don´t match its penalties: For the attacker to come by and discover that his prey just destroyed his cargo just before been tagged and for the attacked to loose, say, his last durability point of his favorite ship, and an officers live, and his cargo... Maybe reducing the penalties of pvp will encourage more people to do it. I mean, the hell with durability points and officers lives, get rid of these; introduce in its place a Players Ranking System, a Prize System, a Bounty System, something that doesn´t badly penalize the losers and make it a pleasant experience the simple fact that he´s fighting against other humans in human´s tactics, even when loosing! Perhaps as a penalty, he looses some money, a captain´s sword that goes into the winners Trophies´ room and point to the winner´s Ranking Board and an exact copy of the ship he capped into his shipyard.

My third point is the fleet system. I can´t really explain why I don´t like, but from the start I was had a bad feeling about it. IMO, it should be limited to PVE only. Perhaps with more freedom to craft ships, this could bring more balance to game and in special, to novice players that leave the game so early on because of the ganking problem. What I mean with more freedom to build ships is the fact that right now, ships are really so limited and the variety of ships is also relatively limited. Allowing the crafter total flexibilty to build a ship the way he wants with the only limitation being the hull itself and, of course, the benefits of penalties of every given feature that is built into the ship. One could build a ship, for example, starting with a hull design, let´s say, a Renommee, made of oak, give trade a few mm of rear armor for sides, put in 12pd in its gun decks and remove his weather´s and, instead of a stern chaser, get some long 6pd in the bow. He then tries it, and decides to mod it. Instead of the current upgrades system, which in my opinion is flawed, he could really modify his ship, like for example, adding a few more armor to his bow, copper plating his underside, replacing his oak rudder for one made of Bermuda Cedar: more fragile, but lighter, replace his Sails for a more refined (further crafted) hemp canvas, either stronger or lighter... What I mean by this is that a well built customized ship can mitigate a lack of an AI fleet if one decides and like to solo play, which should be encouraged too, turning Fleets entirely into real humans fleets.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by stormridersp

[Jerome]

47 minutes ago, stormridersp said:

First of all, for me, anything that can be considered a cheat or, in anyway, raises a barrier between OW and Battle is something unwanted. Imo, the transition between OW and Battle, and from Battle to OW should be seamless. Right now there any many barriers like a count down timer for allied forces to join in a battle, there´s this Battle Screen Camping which allows those escapers to hide from sight and log out, there are the many AI fleets everywhere being pulled into PVPs, there´s the "hidden" players fleets that only really show up in-battle and so on.

For one, imagine this situation in a real-life perspective: You´re sailing your Frigate like ship, and get tagged by an enemy gank who´s every so often getting closer and closer to your own nation´s capital. You´re tagged, alone, somewhere in-sight of populated friendly port. You get into battle and notice that there are AI ship, from the ganks fleet everywhere, dozens and you have no chance, so you go into your nations´ chat and type SOS. A lot of friendly comes for your help, but can´t join the battle because of some burocratic game mechanic, I mean, in real-life, if you´re sailing in OW, there is no countdown timer to join a battle cause the battle happens in OW. Then in this battle, you somehow managed to escape, maybe because you´re a coward (the officer perk that is!) and you decide to just sit and hide in the Battle Screen, I mean, in real-life, you don´t escape a battle not until you really escaped and the pursuers gave up the chase! The result of all this is that ganking as it is right now, is an act of cowardice because it uses the game mechanics in the attackers favor. In real life, if you go attack someone near his own port, you´re better be prepared for a decisive type of battle cause there will be reinforcements as long as the battle is going. By shutting it off, you´re allowing ganks to get ever so close and act in such an unrealistic way that ends up being even more frustrating for the ganked. Perhaps introducing a game mechanic that allows players to join in the ganked´s side until the battle ratio is about 1:1, and only then shutting it off.

 

Some of your suggestions are my main complaints and the main point of my post. If you are sailing alone and get jumped, that's it. I happen to like the new tag system, minus the mega NPC fleets.

The only reason people hunt capital waters is because the chance of finding other players is greater there.  Where else would a person seeking PvP go? A remote port where the chances of finding a player is low? Randomly in the middle of the sea?  Your point there is asinine, OF COURSE players hunt busy ports!  They should not be punished for that like they have.  And no, players in port should not get to hop out and help, that is not realistic if you consider time compression nor is it fair.  And again, to encourage players to leave battle screens, give them a chance to reorient in the open sea.  

Never restrict battles with BR.  Are you kidding?  The abuse of that plus the resulting group splitting triggered the first major player base loss in this game.  It was also a contributing factor to the demise of potbs.  Get rid of BR altogether.

Players don't quit over being ganked.  They quit because of no action.

[stormridersp]

40 minutes ago, Jerome said:

Players don't quit over being ganked.  They quit because of no action.

That´s your opinion, don´t try to make it universal.

 

[Jerome]

10 minutes ago, stormridersp said:

That´s your opinion, don´t try to make it universal.

 

No, it is factual that your mechanic ideas led to players leaving.

No offense mate, there are plenty of threads with your ideas discussed. This ain't one of them.

[stormridersp]

10 minutes ago, Jerome said:

No, it is factual that your mechanic ideas led to players leaving.

No offense mate, there are plenty of threads with your ideas discussed. This ain't one of them.

What is it that makes you think that Ganking actually makes players stay?

 

[Anne Wildcat]

What I would also like to see happen is get rid of crossed swords once the battle starts.  

If a group is sailing the OS looking for action and comes by crossed swords, battle closed they may sit there bc they know someone is going to come out.  Which is sad for a guy on the other end as he has no idea what is on the OS.  I've been on both ends of the spectrum.

[Jerome]

9 minutes ago, stormridersp said:

What is it that makes you think that Ganking actually makes players stay?

 

Because unrestricted PvP leads to more action.  I personally don't like hunting for an hour and seeing nothing, or in the case when battles had BR restrictions, hunting for an hour and then having your group split by BR mechanics.  I had some friends quit then and there.  When we got ganked we always wanted vengeance and sailed out for more.

[Sven Silberbart]

100% agree to all what "Jerome" said.

PS: I like that one: " Make this game what it once was, cutthroat pvp and disregard the losers whining about ganking."

 

[Jerome]

10 minutes ago, Hodo said:

If I see a battle going on and I cant join, or I see it is horribly lopsided I wont join or even wait.  I am not into the gank fleet mentality I don't see a point in it.  It isn't fun for anyone involved.   I don't see the fun in taking 12 4th rates and running down a 6th rate brig.   Just kind of stupid and a waste of everyones time. 

 

But I also don't revenge tag either, if someone escapes me, I say "good fight" and let them go.  

When I sail with a couple friends in surprises, we are not out looking to gank.  We are looking for fights and we have engaged in plenty of fights we were outgunned and won.  And we have been ganked, ran from ganks, and ganked players we have come across as opportunity.  It is not "gank mentality", it is simply hunting for PvP.  We bring what we have and you bring what you have and we meet in the middle, no mechanics balancing it one way or the other.

The other day I jumped an indiaman with an NPC escort of Inger and Essex. I was alone in my surprise.  I can within an ace of sinking the indiaman but had to run because his fleet came within an ace of sinking me.  Sheesh.

[stormridersp]

10 minutes ago, Jerome said:

When I sail with a couple friends in surprises, we are not out looking to gank.  We are looking for fights and we have engaged in plenty of fights we were outgunned and won.  And we have been ganked, ran from ganks, and ganked players we have come across as opportunity.  It is not "gank mentality", it is simply hunting for PvP.  We bring what we have and you bring what you have and we meet in the middle, no mechanics balancing it one way or the other.

The other day I jumped an indiaman with an NPC escort of Inger and Essex. I was alone in my surprise.  I can within an ace of sinking the indiaman but had to run because his fleet came within an ace of sinking me.  Sheesh.

It´s clear at this point that you´re only thinking about yourself: being a hardcore player, with lots of friends, probably a clan member yourself, then yeah, for you ganking will never be a problem cause you are the ganker. But in all your posts, you completely disregard the casual player and worse, the new player who somehow, despite all the complete lack of documentation, found his way into the game.

The main difference between your opinion and mine, is that you accept the fact (and even like it!) that the current PVP is based on Cowardice, while mine opinions are based on Honor and Fairness, disregarding how much freetime the player has on his hand to play the game and grind. And you seem to fall into a contradiction when you say you agree with unrestricted PVP but at same time, disagree with the open battles.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by stormridersp

[Jerome]

1 minute ago, stormridersp said:

It´s clear at this point that you´re only thinking about yourself: being a hardcore player, with lots of friends, probably a clan member yourself, then yeah, for you ganking will never be a problem cause you are the ganker. But in all your posts, you completely disregard the casual player and worse, the new player who somehow, despite all the complete lack of documentation, found his way into the game.

The main difference between your opinion and mine, is that you accept the fact (and even like it!) that the current PVP is based on Cowardice, while mine opinions are based on Honor and Fairness, disregarding how much freetime the player has on his hand to play the game and grind.

 

 

Lol.  At this point it is clear you are my intended victim.

Wrong, my opinion is that PvP should not be influenced by mechanics, just players.  If players want to play cowardly, they can.  If they want to behave in a manner they consider fair or honorable, they can.  But to regulate players with mechanics is a no go.

[stormridersp]

5 minutes ago, Jerome said:

Lol.  At this point it is clear you are my intended victim.

Wrong, my opinion is that PvP should not be influenced by mechanics, just players.  If players want to play cowardly, they can.  If they want to behave in a manner they consider fair or honorable, they can.  But to regulate players with mechanics is a no go.

With that, I agree. I too am against burocratic game mechanics and, as I said in the first post, as my own opinion, that the main cause for ganking and frustration are these game mechanics that raise barriers between OW and Battle, like Join countdown, Battle Screen Camping, and Fleets.

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by stormridersp

[oldcrankyman]

Another post by a player who thinks that his style of play is the only valid one, so therefore the game should be tailored to suit him.

Jerome, there's no right way to play Naval Action.

Your style of play is NOT the only valid way to play, nor is it the most popular way to play.

[Ser_Slack]

1 hour ago, oldcrankyman said:

Another post by a player who thinks that his style of play is the only valid one, so therefore the game should be tailored to suit him.

Jerome, there's no right way to play Naval Action.

Your style of play is NOT the only valid way to play, nor is it the most popular way to play.

Whats the most popular way to play then?

[Jerome]

2 hours ago, oldcrankyman said:

Please note that my suggestions are to remove restrictions and encouraging players to play the game any way they want.  The "anti-ganking" mechanics are all artificial rules within open world that restrict people from playing.  Remove restrictions and let people fight it out.  Less restrictions, more play styles, more players = profit.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Jerome

[Jerome]

2 hours ago, oldcrankyman said:

 

miss-post, stupid phone

Edited November 14, 2016 by Jerome

[Mrdoomed]

5 hours ago, stormridersp said:

What is it that makes you think that Ganking actually makes players stay?

 

No offense or offense i dont care. In this game there really is no "ganking " like most games. There has never been in a year ONE POST about ganking that wasn't because of player error or a secret cry for " i dont like ow pvp help me please ". that is why he is saying they dont leave because of ganking. They are leaving because open world pvp rvr isnt for them.

[Mrdoomed]

4 hours ago, oldcrankyman said:

Another post by a player who thinks that his style of play is the only valid one, so therefore the game should be tailored to suit him.

Jerome, there's no right way to play Naval Action.

Your style of play is NOT the only valid way to play, nor is it the most popular way to play.

The most popular way to play on pvp2 is to avoid all pvp at all costs unless its a scripted lame port battle.  global chat is nothing but endless insults from people being attacked.

Ill take the op style of the current pve mission port battles only carebears we have.