'Independence' 90 ->54 gun Heavy Frigate Refit 1814 (With Plans)

[OTMatt]

A ship built in 1820 that is identical in overall design and capabilities to any one of hundreds of napoleonic era brig-sloops.

 

Mercury fits well with existing ships and although only built right at the very end of NAs period merits inclusion due to a distinguished combat history.

 

Well even its combat history is past the 1820 +/-5 year limit. A ships design should have no impact if it happens to meet requirements imo.

[Alex Connor]

I'm just saying the USS Independence is older(lol) in comparison. There is no reason to deny the USS Independence ingame along with its Razee variant when the Devs plan to do the same for other ships like the Pavel.

By all means, include the useless 1814 Independence whose maindeck gunports were submerged when the ship was fitted with it's design armament.

 

I mean, if you don't mind the devs wasting time and effort modeling a ship no one will sail.

 

The razee is an 1836 design that falls well outside NAs period and would completely obsolete much more historically significant and interesting vessels.

[Haratik]

I'm fine with the Independence as a ship of the line, but there are better American examples out there.  And with the razee plan falling well out of the timeline, I don't see how anyone could support it.  Maybe it's just me.  Personally I'd love to see as many ships from each nation make it into the game, but there will be limitations I'm sure, and this is one that would fall into that "maybe we shouldn't" category.

[TheAmerican]

Yes, she was built earlier, but in the time period I've seen NA is set in, she was an over-loaded, ineffective ship of the line that could barely open her lower gunports without pulling a Vasa/Mary Rose.

Where did you read this? I can't seem to find much info on her sailing characteristics.

[Talos]

Chapelle and Silverstone both talk about it in their books, Chapelle at length (in his History of the American Sailing Navy). It was a common feature of all the first generation American ships of the line, Columbus, Franklin, Washington, Independence, etc. They where very small and overloaded for the armament they were given. Not good ships as built. The later North Carolina class was better and Ohio the best of all. She sailed superbly.

[Cragger]

Where did you read this? I can't seem to find much info on her sailing characteristics.

 

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/line/sotl.htm#inde

 

Taken from documents of the era.

 

The Independence was not a lousy sailor, she was infact able to outrun all the frigates in her squadron. However it was a design flaw that her leeward lower gun ports where too close to the waterline and in a blow they would not be able to be opened.

 

I'd still rather have her as her original construction simply because 2nd rates are one of the rarest rates. While as a very heavy built 54 gun she would be frankly a bit overpowered as a 4th rate making her the go to ship over all others.

 

Also while all the guns where 32lb guns they were not all long guns. Only the two lower gun decks where so, the rest were carronades.

[Hethwill]

Mind you we do no have the variable wind effects on the different rigs in game, to reflect all wind strengths as per era reports, so a compromise is always to be found. Easy for a SOL to outrun a frigate if the wind strength is right.

[Talos]

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/line/sotl.htm#inde

 

Taken from documents of the era.

 

The Independence was not a lousy sailor, she was infact able to outrun all the frigates in her squadron. However it was a design flaw that her leeward lower gun ports where too close to the waterline and in a blow they would not be able to be opened.

 

I'd still rather have her as her original construction simply because 2nd rates are one of the rarest rates. While as a very heavy built 54 gun she would be frankly a bit overpowered as a 4th rate making her the go to ship over all others.

 

Also while all the guns where 32lb guns they were not all long guns. Only the two lower gun decks where so, the rest were carronades.

 

Having your midships lower deck ports only 3'10" from the waterline with the ship not tilted at all is more than a design flaw, it's a failure of a design. I wouldn't take what Bainbridge says at face value here either, he's defending his former flagship, his first ship of the line, and his prestigue command (as the first US SOL deployed anywhere). This is also the man who ruined the excellent corvette John Adams by sticking a quarterdeck back on it (turning it into the only jackass frigate in the US Navy, that is a frigate with a quarterdeck and no forecastle) just because he wanted another frigate under his command and not a common sloop.

 

They were desperate to make Independence more seaworthy, including stripping out some of her 32-pounders and replacing them with 24-pounders from Constitution. I've seen varying accounts of how many, up to and including an entire gundeck. For her trip overseas she had her lower gundeck ports caulked shut and sealed, essentially turning her into a very large, weatherly frigate. With her hull deep and stable and that huge sail plan, is it any wonder she was very fast? Especially compared to the heavy frigates in the squadron, Congress, Java, and United States (Old Wagon, the slowest of the original three 44s).

 

Independence and Franklin were the worst of the original four liners the US built. Washington was Independence's sister and slightly larger, making her slightly better, while Columbus was by far the most successful of the four.

 

I'd love to see her in the game, of course, or Columbus at least. They'd make great 2nd Rates. The only problem if we go by Independence is that plans of her as a liner aren't available. Chapelle theorizes that they were never preserved or even reached the Navy, leading to her lines being taken off when she was razeed. We do have a decent idea of her topsides from the sail plan drawing and combined with the razee plans we could kludge up a fairly decent drawing of her as a 74. If you want to balance it better and not have a homogenous 32-pounder battery (the upper deck ones were lighter than the lower deck), you might replace one with a deck of 24-pounders in reference to the Constitution's guns? Just a thought.

[TheAmerican]

Having your midships lower deck ports only 3'10" from the waterline with the ship not tilted at all is more than a design flaw, it's a failure of a design. I wouldn't take what Bainbridge says at face value here either, he's defending his former flagship, his first ship of the line, and his prestigue command (as the first US SOL deployed anywhere). This is also the man who ruined the excellent corvette John Adams by sticking a quarterdeck back on it (turning it into the only jackass frigate in the US Navy, that is a frigate with a quarterdeck and no forecastle) just because he wanted another frigate under his command and not a common sloop.

 

They were desperate to make Independence more seaworthy, including stripping out some of her 32-pounders and replacing them with 24-pounders from Constitution. I've seen varying accounts of how many, up to and including an entire gundeck. For her trip overseas she had her lower gundeck ports caulked shut and sealed, essentially turning her into a very large, weatherly frigate. With her hull deep and stable and that huge sail plan, is it any wonder she was very fast? Especially compared to the heavy frigates in the squadron, Congress, Java, and United States (Old Wagon, the slowest of the original three 44s).

 

Independence and Franklin were the worst of the original four liners the US built. Washington was Independence's sister and slightly larger, making her slightly better, while Columbus was by far the most successful of the four.

 

I'd love to see her in the game, of course, or Columbus at least. They'd make great 2nd Rates. The only problem if we go by Independence is that plans of her as a liner aren't available. Chapelle theorizes that they were never preserved or even reached the Navy, leading to her lines being taken off when she was razeed. We do have a decent idea of her topsides from the sail plan drawing and combined with the razee plans we could kludge up a fairly decent drawing of her as a 74. If you want to balance it better and not have a homogenous 32-pounder battery (the upper deck ones were lighter than the lower deck), you might replace one with a deck of 24-pounders in reference to the Constitution's guns? Just a thought.

Yeah I just ordered Chapelle's book a bit ago. Looking forward to reading it.

 

Anyway, on to the topic. Why couldn't we just replace the crazy loadout of all 32s with a more "normal" armament? Maybe 42s, 24s, 12s? Or something like this anyway? I don't know a ton about the effects that different loads have on ships, so you guys will have to work with me a bit. lol

[Talos]

None of the American liners carried an armament anywhere like that though. They were either homogenous 32-pounders like Independence, 32-pounders with a 42-pounder carronade spar deck like Columbus, or 42-pdr, 32-pdr, 42-pdr carronade like the North Carolina and Ohio. Actually, later in the 1840s when they switched to a new series of 32-pounder cannons in six sizes, plus 8" shell guns, a lot of the American liners decreased in sheer weight of fire because they replaced all the 42-pounders that were everywhere on them. That's why I suggested something like replacing the upper deck wih 24-pounders on Independence just to maintain some historical realism while reducing the firepower a bit.

[Alex Connor]

The concept of the American 74s was sound enough, a large two decker with full length spar weatherdeck in the style of Humphreys frigates. Rivals to the French 80s, although not quite as big as a Tonnant or Bucentaure.

Intended armament was a uniform calibre battery, 32lb long guns on the gundeck, 32lb colombaids on the upper deck (short light pattern cannon) and 32lb carronades on the weather deck.

In practise this turned out to be far too much weight, with 90 guns and full stores Independence's gundeck ports were submerged, and hasty steps had to be made just to allow the ship to sail. The carronades were reduced in number, 32lb long guns swapped for Constitution's lighter 24s, and Independence sailed for the Mediterranean with half stores and the gundeck ports tarred shut.

All blame for the Independence lay with Bainbridge as he had supervised construction and made changes to the Humphreys design (increasing length and breadth without depth of hull to compensate).

Due to the ship being almost useless as a SoL, Independence had only a brief career showing the American flag before being decommissioned as better SoL became available.