Chain shot needs accuracy reduction

[Aydz]

Not sure what your using as a base model for two balls of metal sharing an 18 inch piece of chain, but nobody in THE WORLD could shoot chain shot with any accuracy as far as people in this game are able to.

 

we just got done killing a bunch of players who didnt even try and fight... they just longed chain shot over 1000 yards like nothing.  Your range on that shit is VASTLY unrealistic.  

[mirror452]

The range on that "shit" is already greatly reduced. It used to have a much better range and much better accuracy.

[maturin]

Only for long guns.

[Aydz]

everyone talks about "realism"

 

read any book on cannonball projectiles

 

here is the common denominator for chain shot 

 

"USED AT SHORT RANGE BECAUSE OF INACCURACY"

 

edit: "Because they dispersed widely upon leaving the gun, the projectiles were especially effective at short range"  http://www.britannica.com/technology/chain-shot

 

*drops the mic

Edited February 24, 2016 by Aydz

[AKPyrate]

everyone talks about "realism"

 

read any book on cannonball projectiles

 

here is the common denominator for chain shot 

 

"USED AT SHORT RANGE BECAUSE OF INACCURACY"

 

edit: "Because they dispersed widely upon leaving the gun, the projectiles were especially effective at short range"  http://www.britannica.com/technology/chain-shot

 

*drops the mic

 

Horrible misquoting...

 

"Rounds of canister and grapeshotconsisted of numerous small missiles, usually iron or lead balls, held together in various ways for simultaneous loading into the gun but designed to separate upon leaving the muzzle. Because they dispersed widely upon leaving the gun, the projectiles were especially effective at short range against massed troops."

 

So, here they're talking about the 'shotgun' effect of anti-personnel grape and canister shot.

 

Next, "Bar shot and chain shot consisted of two heavy projectiles joined by a bar or a chain. Whirling in their trajectories, they were especially effective at sea in cutting the spars and rigging of sailing vessels" implies that bar shot and chain shot were especially effective at sea, not necessarily grossly inaccurate and short ranged as you implied before.  That said, the whirling of the projectile would make it less accurate and with a shorter range than solid ball, but it would still have more range than grape shot.  One thing I keep seeing is that chain shot was extremely effective specialized shot usually used against rigging of ships.

[Prater]

When the ranges were displayed above ships, 500-600m was max effective range for chain.

[Francis Tabernac]

Horrible misquoting...

 

 

Great spot; that's too funny.

 

I find it odd that you complain about the unrealistically powerful nature of chainshot in the game, and then finish the complaint by describing your victory over somebody trying to use it. You'd have done a better job of selling your point had the story ended with "...but they fired nothing but chainshot and destroyed our sails and rigging, and we were never able to catch them." You'd be describing it working exactly as it's supposed to, but it still would have made more sense given your argument.

[Aydz]

Horrible misquoting...

 

"Rounds of canister and grapeshotconsisted of numerous small missiles, usually iron or lead balls, held together in various ways for simultaneous loading into the gun but designed to separate upon leaving the muzzle. Because they dispersed widely upon leaving the gun, the projectiles were especially effective at short range against massed troops."

 

So, here they're talking about the 'shotgun' effect of anti-personnel grape and canister shot.

 

Next, "Bar shot and chain shot consisted of two heavy projectiles joined by a bar or a chain. Whirling in their trajectories, they were especially effective at sea in cutting the spars and rigging of sailing vessels" implies that bar shot and chain shot were especially effective at sea, not necessarily grossly inaccurate and short ranged as you implied before.  That said, the whirling of the projectile would make it less accurate and with a shorter range than solid ball, but it would still have more range than grape shot.  One thing I keep seeing is that chain shot was extremely effective specialized shot usually used against rigging of ships.

 

"When fired, after leaving the muzzle, the shot's components tumble in the air, and the connecting chain fully extends. In past use, as much as six feet of chain would sweep through the target. However, the tumbling made both bar and chain shot less accurate, so they were used at shorter ranges.^[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain-shot

 

 

Page 199

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZCmUeb52l3MC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=chain+shot+accuracy&source=bl&ots=n2HX_IVYyF&sig=FoS0wdk9cOrDEIu9O-DJETFNA6U&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjZ0aHX-ZjLAhUY6mMKHSNRCWQQ6AEITzAI#v=onepage&q=chain%20shot%20accuracy&f=false

 

I can keep going... but... if you dont believe me... go watch mythbusters shoot a chain out of a cannon... note the range, and they still clipped the side.  I'd love for you to prove me wrong though... do me a favor go shoot chain shot 1000 yards... tell me how it works out for you.

[Hethwill]

Regarding the game... with long guns.

 

Best grouping I am getting is at 600 yards, where the spread manages to go across the entire length of the ship, from broad. In every 10 shots about 3 go too wide at that distance. About half if target abeam.

 

Over 800 yards it is half at best in broad, given that both ships keep steady navigation and distance.

 

Interesting enough the OP refers chain shot without referring default comparison of solid ball, which IMO is way more accurate at the 1200 mark where an experienced player can consistently deflect shot masts at over half broadsides efficiency.

[Aetrion]

The reason why people didn't fire chainshot over 1km and hoped for a lucky hit in real life is because gunpowder was expensive. A lot of the concerns with going into battle are distorted in this game because some things, like sailors or munitions are completely free, so using them in a wasteful manner becomes standard procedure.

[Aydz]

Ok i'll keep going

 

 Chain shot, consisting of two shot secured to each other with a length of chain, and bar shot, consisting of two solid hemispheres secured by a bar, were effective at short range against sails and rigging but were very inaccurate in their flight.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Naval_guns_and_gunnery

 

Here is an interesting section REGARDING RANGE of cannons... Carronades... but i guess that it wouldnt apply AT ALL in regards to two metal balls swinging in circles... cause you know... we have so many examples of tumbling objects being shot 500 yards accurately... here let me check to see that, but read this first.

 

In A Proposal for Increasing the Strength of the British Navy (1747) Robins proposed a new naval gun design based on his models, and in 1779, the carronade was invented to incorporate Robins' ideas. These short-barreled, light-weight, large-bore guns used a small powder charge and the same projectile as did the long guns. As Continental scientists likeLeonhard Euler developed Robins' ideas, Navies across Europe hurried to adopt Robins' proposals.^[12] The British put carronades on existing ships and armed many of the smaller warships, such as frigates, sloops, and brigs, entirely with carronades. Similar guns were put into service by the Dutch, French, Spanish, and American navies. The carronade's short range eventually led to loss of interest in it as a naval weapon. In two actions during the War of 1812, this shortcoming was an important factor in determining the victor. In the Battle of Lake Erie, American forces fought with long guns from beyond the range of British ships, and the English commodore reported, "We remained in this mortifying situation five hours, having only six guns in all the squadron that would reach the enemy, not a carronade being fired."^[13] In another action, the British ships Phoebe and Cherub, armed with long guns, captured the American frigate Essex, which was equipped almost entirely with carronades. Despite its shortcomings, the carronade demonstrated the importance of quick-firing weapons and the need to use projectiles which fitted snugly into the bore of the gun.^[14]

 

^{Here try this.}

 

Generally speaking, a projectile with greater volume faces greater air resistance, reducing the range of the projectile. This can be modified by the projectile shape: a tall and wide, but short projectile will face greater air resistance than a low and narrow, but long, projectile of the same volume. The surface of the projectile also must be considered: a smooth projectile will face less air resistance than a rough-surfaced one, and irregularities on the surface of a projectile may change its trajectory if they create more drag on one side of the projectile than on the other. Mass also becomes important, as a more massive projectile will have more kinetic energy, and will thus be less affected by air resistance. The distribution of mass within the projectile can also be important, as an unevenly weighted projectile may spin undesirably, causing irregularities in its trajectory due to the magnus effect.

 

Let me just ask... how much accuracy does two heavy metal balls spinning on a chain of various sizes need to REALLY have?  All things considered, you cannot argue that you can shoot two objects connected by a chain  accurately... because you CANT.  End of discussion.  Range is a product of accuracy.  Having a gun that can SHOOT 2000 yards is great, as long as the object being SHOT can achieve 2000 yards.  

 

Give it a rest.  Chain shot is short range ammunition.  Period.  You don't see anywhere in history naval battles having demonstrated long range accuracy with chain shot.  Its called CLOSE RANGE because the AMMO in unpredictable. So spare me your "Misquoted" nonsense.

[Aetrion]

It does have a lot less range and accuracy ingame than ball ammunition. The problem is that the sails are a huge target, you can fire 20+ guns worth of it at the same time, and you only need to score a dozen hits or so to see a serious reduction in the targets speed.

[maturin]

The reason why people didn't fire chainshot over 1km and hoped for a lucky hit in real life is because gunpowder was expensive. A lot of the concerns with going into battle are distorted in this game because some things, like sailors or munitions are completely free, so using them in a wasteful manner becomes standard procedure.

The reason you don't shoot chainshot at over 1km is because the gunpowder charge required would cause the chain to snap.

 

Let's not drag irrelevant details into this thread.

 

Rule #2 of Gunfighting: Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

[Ampen]

I can't see the issue. The chain shots aren't really a marvel of accuracy, for me at least they spread pretty damn good.

[Aetrion]

The reason you don't shoot chainshot at over 1km is because the gunpowder charge required would cause the chain to snap.

 

Which is why bar-shot existed for longer range fire. I said chain shot because bar shot isn't in the game.

[Aydz]

I almost cant believe what im reading at times.  Does anyone even understand how objects are affected by gravity, and wind while in motion?  Anyone ever shot a gun 1000 yards?

 

Increase mass, increase range.... ALSO needed is an increase in propellant.  Increase size, increase wind and gravity.  Decrease shape, spin, and counter weight... decrease accuracy.  

 

You cant curve bullets because the bullet upon exit from the gun are moving at super sonic speed, and the barrel has created spin upon its center axis.  its a line that reaches and apex, or the point at which it loses enough of its velocity to be affected by wind and gravity... moisture, the curvature of the earth....  and drops.  Wind gusts will push the projectile to the side.

 

Now lets talk about chain attached to a ball manufactured in the 1700s by blacksmiths.  (stop talking about bar shot, as this is only SLIGHTLY better and not in the game)

 

none of the above apply.

 

There is no spin on center axis, there is a constant change in its size, shape and it is tumbling.  You cant increase propellant to increase range as it will either kill the ones shooting the cannon, or destroy the projectile, and you cant increase the mass as it is restricted to the cannon barrel.

 

You are basically shoving a bunch of heavy, long dog shit in the barrel of the cannon and shooting it in the GENERAL direction of a boat.

 

If you broadsided a bunch of chains out the side of a boat in unison... you would see a hot mess of chains hitting each other as they spray outwards like a can of spray paint.

 

 

What chain shot needs to look like in this game, is something similar to carronades only much worse and within 100 yards.  They need to fly in random out of the cannon barrel and sail out while dropping fast...  do me a favor, go to a gun range and LOOK at the range of 100 yards.  People have a hard time shooting bullets from rifles that far... dont believe me... go to basic training.

[Aetrion]

The random cone of fire the shots have are supposed to simulate all the ways in which the projectile can alter course during its trajectory.

 

It just doesn't matter all that much when you're firing 15-30 shots while all you have to do to keep the fight going is get a single one to hit the sails of a ship.

[Aydz]

Just one more thing, and then im done with this thread.

 

Devs, im not saying make in more realistic... 

 

Im saying make it LESS unrealistic.  Thats it.  For what chain shot does in this game, which is shred sails and decrease a boats speed and ability to escape or fight effectively, it needs to be less unrealistic.  

 

Simply put... you cant shoot chains in straight broad long arching shots.  Its not possible, and it gives players an advantage that they don't need or deserve at long range.

 

And because the sails are a massive target compared to the hull of the ship... its not needed.  

 

Chain shot, like grape shot... is situational ammunition.  Those arguing that its fine, are probably using it more that what is institutionally feasible.  Or... they are loading chain shot up and never switching to ball... they just sail around shooting chain until players sails are 0... which doesnt take to long.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Aydz

[Aetrion]

The question is if giving chain shot ultra low range would even matter, since you can keep people in combat and hurt their sails with balls as well. 

 

Actually reducing someone to 0 sails does take a long time unless you knock over their masts. The one thing the sails do take into account is that hitting the same spot twice doesn't give you more damage. 

[eriks]

While chain is not accurate it doesn't really need to be because the sails are a vastly larger target than the hull.

[Aetrion]

I think one kind of weird factor that comes into play in this game that never came into play in real life is that you start every fight within cannon range, so a slow ship can blast a fast ships rigging off before the chase begins in earnest. 

 

In reality you'd start running before the person ever even got in cannon range.

 

So, all the "realistic" running happens in the overworld which doesn't have the full sailing simulation and stuff.

[AKPyrate]

I almost cant believe what im reading at times.  Does anyone even understand how objects are affected by gravity, and wind while in motion?  Anyone ever shot a gun 1000 yards?

 

Increase mass, increase range.... ALSO needed is an increase in propellant.  Increase size, increase wind and gravity.  Decrease shape, spin, and counter weight... decrease accuracy.  

 

You cant curve bullets because the bullet upon exit from the gun are moving at super sonic speed, and the barrel has created spin upon its center axis.  its a line that reaches and apex, or the point at which it loses enough of its velocity to be affected by wind and gravity... moisture, the curvature of the earth....  and drops.  Wind gusts will push the projectile to the side.

 

Now lets talk about chain attached to a ball manufactured in the 1700s by blacksmiths.  (stop talking about bar shot, as this is only SLIGHTLY better and not in the game)

 

none of the above apply.

 

There is no spin on center axis, there is a constant change in its size, shape and it is tumbling.  You cant increase propellant to increase range as it will either kill the ones shooting the cannon, or destroy the projectile, and you cant increase the mass as it is restricted to the cannon barrel.

 

You are basically shoving a bunch of heavy, long dog shit in the barrel of the cannon and shooting it in the GENERAL direction of a boat.

 

If you broadsided a bunch of chains out the side of a boat in unison... you would see a hot mess of chains hitting each other as they spray outwards like a can of spray paint.

 

 

What chain shot needs to look like in this game, is something similar to carronades only much worse and within 100 yards.  They need to fly in random out of the cannon barrel and sail out while dropping fast...  do me a favor, go to a gun range and LOOK at the range of 100 yards.  People have a hard time shooting bullets from rifles that far... dont believe me... go to basic training.

 

Increasing size does NOT increase gravity.  Sorry, that's just basic physics.

 

Additionally, the cannons in this game, by and large would be smooth bore, so no spiral effect to keep accuracy.

 

While you are shooting a relatively inaccurate projectile in the general vicinity of a boat, these boats' rigs are quite large and a single shot would likely do much more damage than it does in game (just one lucky shot could take out all the halyards on a mast due to how they were generally rigged), so it's a decent compromise for playability.

[Aydz]

Increasing size does NOT increase gravity.  Sorry, that's just basic physics.

 

Additionally, the cannons in this game, by and large would be smooth bore, so no spiral effect to keep accuracy.

 

While you are shooting a relatively inaccurate projectile in the general vicinity of a boat, these boats' rigs are quite large and a single shot would likely do much more damage than it does in game (just one lucky shot could take out all the halyards on a mast due to how they were generally rigged), so it's a decent compromise for playability.

 

actually it says... increase size, increase WIND and gravity.  as wind slows the projectile, gravity has increased effectiveness.  and since you cant have wind without gravity... ergo... im right.  nice chat though