[PvP2] Vive La France

[Taralin Snow]

I'm a pirate player and I can honestly say without a doubt that the french are really mad that they are losing ports.

 

Yeah, I think we have a couple of RP'ers that are all up in arms about retaking the ports near our capital.  Nobody takes them seriously.

[Dharus]

Newsflash, Mortimer Town is a ghost city. It is good news that 15 frenchmen could petition the devs to make Camp du Roy neutral. We will have our own vote to make it the new Pirate Capital now

Ya, i scouted CdR. It's a haven for PvErs playing econ, fleet grinding, and mission running (and knuckleheads who think they could gang up on a little privateer in fat boats with carronades).

Enjoy your delusions.

[Taralin Snow]

We were letting you have Saint-Joseph which has good iron.. But I guess Slamz told you we wanted that too?

 

You say that as if you thought sailing an hour round trip (with favorable wind) was a good thing, equally as good (or better than) sailing 5 minutes for it.  Saint Joseph is about the same distance as Kingstown, and time spent sailing there is time we could be PvPing instead.  Do you seriously have players in your clan that like hauling cargo long distances?  Is that why you thought we'd like it too?

 

The fact that you don't understand why this was such a terrible deal for us does not bode well for your future as the official diplomat for CF.  You're offering polished turds and claiming they're gold nuggets.  I am beginning to suspect that the Dunning-Kruger effect is at work here.

[Taralin Snow]

2/24 Pedernales Participation

 

Players by Rank

Rank    French  Pirate

3       2       3

4       3       6

5       5       4

6       13      8

7       2       4

 

Players by Clan

[PURGE] 12

[LMN]   6

[18E]   3

[EA]    1

[J4LP]  1

no tag  2

 

[bSO]   9

[sIN]   7

[TSP]   4

[AUSNZ] 2

[FC]    2

[CF]    1

[Arsilon]

We were letting you have Saint-Joseph which has good iron.. But I guess Slamz told you we wanted that too?

 

There are 4 ports in that bay area that have iron.  There was only 1 we were using (and it doesn't even have the highest production rates compared to the others).  So that is the one you said we couldn't have and instead we could have the one a hour sail away?

 

And you guys wonder why we think your diplomacy skills are terrible.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Arsilon

[Random]

Way to go, guys. Keep slinging some more blame at each other instead of trying to figure out if we can actually work together instead of approaching a meaningless cutter v cutter PvP that we could've done in the Bahamas in the first place...

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

There are 4 ports in that bay area that have iron.  There was only 1 we were using (and it doesn't even have the highest production rates compared to the others).  So that is the one you said we couldn't have and instead we could have the one a hour sail away?

 

And you guys wonder why we think your diplomacy skills are terrible.

 

Well you now have close to zero ports and losing more every day. Obviously the deal is not what you wanted, but the alternative (which is playing out currently) isn't any better for you guys.

[Bach]

Well you now have close to zero ports and losing more every day. Obviously the deal is not what you wanted, but the alternative (which is playing out currently) isn't any better for you guys.

I would have agreed with this a few weeks ago. Funny thing about non-role playing PVE and Econ players is they mostly are soloists. They are not particularly loyal beyond what is good for themselves. So once pirates started offering to sell and haul this same iron it became a problem that solved itself. As long as they don't ask for more profit than it costs to have NPCs deliver it in from across the map everybody wins. Since I can't enter a pirate port it gets delivered to me at a free town and I don't even have to do any sailing which makes the added cost all that more worth while.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Bach

[Vllad]

Obviously the deal is not what you wanted, but the alternative (which is playing out currently) isn't any better for you guys.

 

Actually it turned out exactly like we thought it would. Since you apparently are missing the point of the dozens of post telling you let me try to make this simple for you.

 

You don't need to control ports to get resources. The Privateers (including Pirates) of every nation are more than happy to supply us what we need at a fair and market rate. We have recourses coming out of our ears because players are greedy.

 

Now we get to log on, PVP all day and we never have to haul crap around. People bring us the resources we need and we are free to spend those resources killing Pirates the entire time we are logged in.  

 

I need you to try and imagine for one second that when we had ports we had to actually spend time Econning and it was taking away time from PVP and that was BORING. Now we are free to PVP and we let other people Econ for us.

 

 

Poe,

 

Can you please try and explain to this Pirate why we are happy about not having to Econ anymore?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Vllad

[Æthlstan]

I am one of the frenchmen who has taken on the burden of econ for the rest of the faction. It was a pain in the ass to get set up, but now its running smoothly. I pride myself on my low prices yet still good profit margins. The satisfaction of knowing what i haul goes straight into killin pirates doesnt get me down either.

That being said I still try to PvP every night and always have a blast, outnumbered by superior ships or not.

Im playing a balanced and fun game. Can the pirates say the same?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Æthlstan

[Arsilon]

Way to go, guys. Keep slinging some more blame at each other instead of trying to figure out if we can actually work together instead of approaching a meaningless cutter v cutter PvP that we could've done in the Bahamas in the first place...

 

At this point the pirates are worked up into such a frenzy there is no face saving way for them to get back out.  Someone would have to cave and with the ego's we are dealing with, that would never happen.

 

On the French side, we have nothing more to lose.  We knew the path ahead of us.  We knew we would be pushed into making our stand with few or even no ports.  We had no real alternative but to take that path anyway.  And we're having a blast in the meantime.

 

So what would you suggest as a way that the Pirates and French COULD work together at this point?  There is nothing that the pirates need or want from the French except for them to just go away and stop being a pain in their rear (figuratively and literally given the part of the map we're talking about).  Some might call it a mere annoyance with no real impact on the big picture.  The fact that we are expending so much energy here and in the game dealing with it says its not entirely inconsequential.  There is nothing the pirates would be willing to give either as their position has and continues to be one of "we'll just take all your ports and wipe you out" as if that will ultimately solve anything.  

 

This is the problem.  We are playing two different games and keeping score in two different ways.  There is so far no common ground to even begin to have reasonable dialogue around.

[Michel de Toulouse]

Shoutout to Grizly for staying and fighting us in his Belle Poule with a AUSNZ guy in a Renommee.   It wasn't exactly a 100% even fight.   2 French Renommee and 2 Snows vs 1 Belle Poule and a the Renommee.   Unlike some other whiny constitution sailors.. he didn't whine and BM in chat the second he didn't have a 2:1 BR advantage..

[Bach]

At this point the pirates are worked up into such a frenzy there is no face saving way for them to get back out.  Someone would have to cave and with the ego's we are dealing with, that would never happen.

 

On the French side, we have nothing more to lose.  We knew the path ahead of us.  We knew we would be pushed into making our stand with few or even no ports.  We had no real alternative but to take that path anyway.  And we're having a blast in the meantime.

 

So what would you suggest as a way that the Pirates and French COULD work together at this point?  There is nothing that the pirates need or want from the French except for them to just go away and stop being a pain in their rear (figuratively and literally given the part of the map we're talking about).  Some might call it a mere annoyance with no real impact on the big picture.  The fact that we are expending so much energy here and in the game dealing with it says its not entirely inconsequential.  There is nothing the pirates would be willing to give either as their position has and continues to be one of "we'll just take all your ports and wipe you out" as if that will ultimately solve anything.  

 

This is the problem.  We are playing two different games and keeping score in two different ways.  There is so far no common ground to even begin to have reasonable dialogue around.

@Brucy

I'll throw you a bone here. Basically you can't offer us peace. Peace sucks in a pvp game. Offering us mission and NPC hunting grounds are equally as worthless. You have to offer us something to fight worth while. You have to offer a target and a war front to replace yourselves and the means to wage that better war.

[Arbour]

Way to go, guys. Keep slinging some more blame at each other instead of trying to figure out if we can actually work together instead of approaching a meaningless cutter v cutter PvP that we could've done in the Bahamas in the first place...

 

Are you talking about the French and the pirates? or pirates and pirates?  With French and pirates, you just have to remind them that threatening PvPers in a PvP game with  the threat of PvP isn't a weighty threat, if pirates want to work with French they have to give us something besides enjoyable fights.  For pirates and pirates, I guess that is for you guys to hash out, but I for one am tired of hearing pirates say the Bahamas are indefensible, we've proved them wrong there.   

 

Well you now have close to zero ports and losing more every day. Obviously the deal is not what you wanted, but the alternative (which is playing out currently) isn't any better for you guys.

 

I curious if you just haven't read this thread or just don't believe that someone can't care about ports?  Every Frenchman on this thread has stated that we don't care about ports.  I mean sure they are pretty, and you can make some money off of them, but they are not required for resources and they are not required for fun.  France has plenty of both.  So keep going back to the same ole "we took your ports, you gonna cry about it?" attitude, cause each time you repeat that just makes you look dumb.  

[Slamz]

Well you now have close to zero ports and losing more every day. Obviously the deal is not what you wanted, but the alternative (which is playing out currently) isn't any better for you guys.

 

You must think it's just hollow bravado from us that we "enjoy the PvP". Secretly, you think, we actually hate it and are very sad and angry that we can't.....grind NPCs and haul iron ore around the map in peace like you guys.

 

Let me tell you how my day usually goes:

 

* Log into the game.

* Log into Teamspeak.

* The gang is engaged in PvP. Every single night I log into this.

* I jump out and join in the PvP -- open sea battles against pirates.

* 4 hours later it's time to go to bed.

* 2 hours after that I actually log off because there is always just one more pirate mission to jump into or one more open sea pirate to attack.

* Probably the best thing you pirates could do is wait until about 2am and then all start running around in Trader Snows. You'd end up keeping me up all night and maybe I'd be really tired the next day! Sometimes I suspect you are doing this anyway, except you actually load them up with goods first. (Last night I saw a pirate had a golden Trader Lynx for sale in Cano Mac. It had golden "Stiffness" on it. I guess he made a 4-note fir Trader Lynx purely in the hope he would get golden "Speed" on it and we wouldn't be able to catch him anymore....)

 

 

The day will come when you finally have the balls to go conduct a real war somewhere else and I'm dreading that day. For the sake of developing a good newbie area for the French team to grow with, we will have to retake these pirate ports. For you, taking empty ports is apparently a cause of gloating and celebration but for us it's just going to be a chore. Probably the biggest thing you've accomplished in French territory is arranging a very clever delay for us, so that when you do eventually run off, it will take us some time to clean up our starting area before we can follow you and resume our daily PvP.

[Obliterati]

I don't disagree that the French have a method to gather resources. It just takes a lot of time and you're also feeding fewer players. It's highly scale dependent. Basically you can't build a fleet to take over the world, but you can keep your pvp fleets supplied. Though if the pirates would work more as a team. We could stranglehold what little you do get.

 

One of the reasons the pirates need more resources is because the scale is so much larger. Even though we may have 10x the ship builders the french do. We still can't keep up with demand despite the additional resource ports. Partially because more people are hitting higher levels that virtually no crafter can build for yet and BPs are a bitch to get. 3rd rates come to mind as a prime example. So building an assault fleet good enough to take on the US or Brits is taking a ton of time.

Eventually it'll work itself out if the devs give it time. When it does. You'll see a much wider difference in capabilities as every pirate would be in Exceptional ships.

 

For now its worth noting that almost every pirate ship you see out there is still basic. Unless they are higher in rank and driving a lower ranked ship. This is especially true for frigs or below.

[Arsilon]

I don't disagree that the French have a method to gather resources. It just takes a lot of time and you're also feeding fewer players. It's highly scale dependent. Basically you can't build a fleet to take over the world, but you can keep your pvp fleets supplied. Though if the pirates would work more as a team. We could stranglehold what little you do get.

 

One of the reasons the pirates need more resources is because the scale is so much larger. Even though we may have 10x the ship builders the french do. We still can't keep up with demand despite the additional resource ports. Partially because more people are hitting higher levels that virtually no crafter can build for yet and BPs are a bitch to get. 3rd rates come to mind as a prime example. So building an assault fleet good enough to take on the US or Brits is taking a ton of time.

Eventually it'll work itself out if the devs give it time. When it does. You'll see a much wider difference in capabilities as every pirate would be in Exceptional ships.

 

For now its worth noting that almost every pirate ship you see out there is still basic. Unless they are higher in rank and driving a lower ranked ship. This is especially true for frigs or below.

 

It is 5x easier for pirates to equip a fleet than it is for Nationals.  You make 1 ship with 5x Durability on it, go outside and attack each other and capture it.  Now you have 2 pirates in that ship, one with 4x durability and one with 1x durability.  Rinse and repeat and you now have 5x people in the shiny new gold ship.  You can project more power (BR) in a fleet given your numbers simply by getting more captains in those bigger ships even if they each only have 1 durability.

 

In order to get the same number of BR rating for any national would require 5x the effort and resources.  So the pirates don't really have it all that bad given the ability (abuse?) offered by this mechanic.

 

(And don't even try to insult our intelligence by saying there aren't pirates doing this)

[Arbour]

The day will come when you finally have the balls to go conduct a real war somewhere else and I'm dreading that day. For the sake of developing a good newbie area for the French team to grow with, we will have to retake these pirate ports. For you, taking empty ports is apparently a cause of gloating and celebration but for us it's just going to be a chore. Probably the biggest thing you've accomplished in French territory is arranging a very clever delay for us, so that when you do eventually run off, it will take us some time to clean up our starting area before we can follow you and resume our daily PvP.

 

Ugh, retaking ports vs. towers?  Spending 150k to 600k gold to get a crafting note, maybe?  Tedious at best.  

[Random]

At this point the pirates are worked up into such a frenzy there is no face saving way for them to get back out.  Someone would have to cave and with the ego's we are dealing with, that would never happen.

 

On the French side, we have nothing more to lose.  We knew the path ahead of us.  We knew we would be pushed into making our stand with few or even no ports.  We had no real alternative but to take that path anyway.  And we're having a blast in the meantime.

 

So what would you suggest as a way that the Pirates and French COULD work together at this point?  There is nothing that the pirates need or want from the French except for them to just go away and stop being a pain in their rear (figuratively and literally given the part of the map we're talking about).  Some might call it a mere annoyance with no real impact on the big picture.  The fact that we are expending so much energy here and in the game dealing with it says its not entirely inconsequential.  There is nothing the pirates would be willing to give either as their position has and continues to be one of "we'll just take all your ports and wipe you out" as if that will ultimately solve anything.  

 

This is the problem.  We are playing two different games and keeping score in two different ways.  There is so far no common ground to even begin to have reasonable dialogue around.

While the problem of egos (as well as the problem of their number stemming from a deeply flawed horizontal organizational structure of "clans within nation") is a separate one and deserves a whole separate thread, I do believe that the French have something to lose. 1) while you are creating a tight group of hardcore PvP players for your nation, you lose prospective players who are turned off by your geopolitical situation and lack of opportunities to explore the game to its fullest, 2) current situation is breeding long term hostilities and prevents future discourse and possible collaboration between Pirates and France. While it might not have an immediate impact on your enjoyment of good PvP action, it could have drastic consequences for the future game when pirate mechanics are reworked and map is reset. If you refuse to negotiate in earnest, you are denying yourself a potential ally in the future (if not ensuring that you've made a permanent enemy) - that is not a prudent policy.

 

I believe that Pirates actually need strong France in order to compete with US and Brits (look at the bulk of European history and struggle to maintain balance of power). Pirates could definitely use a second front against US and Brits that France could provide from its secondary holdings in Louisiana. That second front would free up pirate clans to retake Bahamas and end internal division caused by US occupation. As those ports are all shallow, retaking them will have to be a numbers game. In that game, experience level and ship size will not matter. Allies that bolster numbers and lack of enemies that prevent reinforcements, however, will prove crucial.

 

Tensions appear to be high between the two nations, yet both have some interests that can be fulfilled in a mutually beneficial manner while ensuring that good PvP action is available to all without having to sacrifice other aspects of the game. Earlier I outlined what I believe to be a decent start to not only restoring Pirate-French relationship, but also building a productive alliance that would allow both nations to improve their geopolitical situation. While the particulars of that plan can be negotiated, it appears that no such negotiations can begin until egos and blame flinging can stop. I would strongly advise both parties to set aside past transgressions however real they might be, put on some big boy pants and engage in a big boy diplomacy. What this thread has become is meaningless and if either one of the parties is not willing to even try to work together (without bringing up past events), then you are all effectively wasting your time with this meaningless back and forth banter. 

[Obliterati]

It is 5x easier for pirates to equip a fleet than it is for Nationals.  You make 1 ship with 5x Durability on it, go outside and attack each other and capture it.  Now you have 2 pirates in that ship, one with 4x durability and one with 1x durability.  Rinse and repeat and you now have 5x people in the shiny new gold ship.  You can project more power (BR) in a fleet given your numbers simply by getting more captains in those bigger ships even if they each only have 1 durability.

 

In order to get the same number of BR rating for any national would require 5x the effort and resources.  So the pirates don't really have it all that bad given the ability (abuse?) offered by this mechanic.

 

(And don't even try to insult our intelligence by saying there aren't pirates doing this)

 

No one actually does that though; or at the very least I've never seen/heard of it actually being done. Though it has been discussed as an option. Plus I personally consider it an exploit.

 

The main reason is because ships are to expensive. For example our most advanced crafter is charging 13 crafting notes + 4 crafting notes and all parts to build a ship. Which is free crafting XP for him and 13 Cnote profit.

 

Even the more reasonably priced ships normally have 50-100k markup over cost, and require the buyer to furnish Cnotes.

[Obliterati]

While the problem of egos (as well as the problem of their number stemming from a deeply flawed horizontal organizational structure of "clans within nation") is a separate one and deserves a whole separate thread, I do believe that the French have something to lose. 1) while you are creating a tight group of hardcore PvP players for your nation, you lose prospective players who are turned off by your geopolitical situation and lack of opportunities to explore the game to its fullest, 2) current situation is breeding long term hostilities and prevents future discourse and possible collaboration between Pirates and France. While it might not have an immediate impact on your enjoyment of good PvP action, it could have drastic consequences for the future game when pirate mechanics are reworked and map is reset. If you refuse to negotiate in earnest, you are denying yourself a potential ally in the future (if not ensuring that you've made a permanent enemy) - that is not a prudent policy.

 

I believe that Pirates actually need strong France in order to compete with US and Brits (look at the bulk of European history and struggle to maintain balance of power). Pirates could definitely use a second front against US and Brits that France could provide from its secondary holdings in Louisiana. That second front would free up pirate clans to retake Bahamas and end internal division caused by US occupation. As those ports are all shallow, retaking them will have to be a numbers game. In that game, experience level and ship size will not matter. Allies that bolster numbers and lack of enemies that prevent reinforcements, however, will prove crucial.

 

Tensions appear to be high between the two nations, yet both have some interests that can be fulfilled in a mutually beneficial manner while ensuring that good PvP action is available to all without having to sacrifice other aspects of the game. Earlier I outlined what I believe to be a decent start to not only restoring Pirate-French relationship, but also building a productive alliance that would allow both nations to improve their geopolitical situation. While the particulars of that plan can be negotiated, it appears that no such negotiations can begin until egos and blame flinging can stop. I would strongly advise both parties to set aside past transgressions however real they might be, put on some big boy pants and engage in a big boy diplomacy. What this thread has become is meaningless and if either one of the parties is not willing to even try to work together (without bringing up past events), then you are all effectively wasting your time with this meaningless back and forth banter. 

 

Agreed. By definition the French and Pirates are natural allies with the way the map is setup. Success/population size/egos are all getting in the way.

 

Though my personal opinion is that the french had no desire when this all started (before they knew the full extent of the pirate strength) to actually deal fairly with the pirates. Principally because the french considered the Camp Du Roy area theirs. Or at least IMHO they had designs on it.

 

In a round about way i guess you could blame Crimson Flotilla for the current state of the map . We did start this mess by moving south east for kicks and giggles.

[Random]

That'd be why everyone has to stop saying "you did this" and "but you did that first". Both can win if you drop the blame game and start over.

[Arbour]

 

Stuff, and surprisingly intelligent stuff. 

 

 

Your plan is actually a good one.  I fear however that the ball is in the pirate's court.  The first step towards a deal like you described would have to start from the pirates side.  If France came to the pirates and purposed this deal, they would just say something like "look the cry-babies want their ports back" and wouldn't realize the strategic advantage of your plan, because that is the attitude and intelligence level of 90% of the pirates.  I know cause they spew that vomit is battle chat as I sink their ships, every night.  

 

If you can convince the pirates that this is a good deal, send me a pm, but I fear that you will have more luck slamming your head against a wall.  

[Random]

That's why I (an independent pirate) propose this to both sides

[Arsilon]

Agreed. By definition the French and Pirates are natural allies with the way the map is setup. Success/population size/egos are all getting in the way.

 

Though my personal opinion is that the french had no desire when this all started (before they knew the full extent of the pirate strength) to actually deal fairly with the pirates. Principally because the french considered the Camp Du Roy area theirs. Or at least IMHO they had designs on it.

 

In a round about way i guess you could blame Crimson Flotilla for the current state of the map . We did start this mess by moving south east for kicks and giggles.

 

If the pirates had stopped at the Camp Du Roy area there would have been plenty of French not happy about it, but I doubt it would have escalated to the point it has.  To take that position and then continue to move further South, first by attacking Kingstown while in addition a contingent of Rats that were trying to establish a foothold in South America was what pushed the French over.