Map location indicator needed. Realism

[Nerdwing]

Back then, people had little to no tools to navigate, and they still conquered the seas.

No, they most certainly had tools and the knowledge to employ them.

[Torpedo]

I like the actual system.

This said, when the UI is redone, I would not oppose to:

 

1.Replicate the compass on the map view with the boat current heading marked instead of the wind + the ability to drag/ place the compass anywhere on the map.

2.Allow the player to "draw a line on the map between two or more points ( had dots to the line, so we can guess distance)

3.Give a latitude read (how far north/ south) once a day at noon, just place a bar across the map.

[Prater]

No, they most certainly had tools and the knowledge to employ them.

We have the tools, you have to know how to employ them.

[akd]

We have the tools, you have to know how to employ them.

Good to remember this as the whole argument against showing map location is pretty silly when F11 coordinates are still (will always be?) in the game. It's not entirely about skill in game, but also about having access to the right information and tools outside of the game, which means maximizing skill is automatically excluded from some players arbitrarily (not everyone comes to forums, tools are not shared freely, etc.). As long as those coordinates (GPS really) are provided, I have to seriously doubt whether the devs are really committed to no player position as a feature of the game.

I like to delude myself that no player position is a non-issue as I mostly sail around by dead reckoning without problem (and I'm glad the game didn't hold my hand and show my location so that I learned the skill), but every once in awhile I get totally fucking lost or turned around, resort to F11 and cross-referencing against tools outside of the game and I can't help but think it is a bit unfair.

Note: I do not discount "meta" game skill, and it is certainly something that one person can be better at than another, but in my opinion skill in game should be judged on the gameplay that is made accessible through design.

[Prater]

The process to figure out longitude in real life was a time consuming and unguided process without any hand holding.  This game replicated that.  Instead of stars or the sun (which don't mean anything in this game), we have f11 coordinates, but those don't mean a thing by themselves.  Someone had to figure out how to make those f11 coordinates mean something to people who aren't the devs, just like figuring out latitude and longitude and how to take readings to accurately place them had to be figured out in real life.  While it definitely didn't take as long as it did in real life, I spent 250-300 hours on the projects surrounding it.  I don't know how much Seigfried spent on his map, but until we finished our actual game landmass maps, f11s didn't really mean a thing, or at least you couldn't accurately place them no matter where you were.  The game, in a way, and in a gamey way, replicated much of the "races" and "competitions" to figure this stuff out, just like it was in the real life several hundred years ago.

 

To me, that is an important aspect that Naval Action created.  And it also means those who can use their brains (skill) can be good navigators.  Those who care little, might not be good at it and have a problem with it.  Just like in real life.

 

So, unless a sextant mini game is added, it should stay how it is.

[Aubrey]

I am finding I am wasting a lot of time trying to find locations and getting lost and giving up due to having to rely on compass and  guess work, and not really knowing where I am on the map.

Then learn to use map and compass - like everyone else.

No magic markers please.

[Ghroznak]

This whole discussion is rather sillly.

 

People aren't asking for magic markers, or pinpoint GPS positions (which we can get through F11 and some out-of-game tools).

 

If you want everyone to use map and compass, the first thing you should strive towards is getting rid of the GPS location in the F11 menu as those coordinates should not be visible to players in the first place and simply be added as information that tags along with the bug report without us (the players) seeing it at all, thus only available to the devs.

 

Then you should strive towards getting rid of the large circle that shows up on the map when you are in a port.

 

Thirdly you should strive towards them removing the Home button free camera which can be used as a UAV drone to scout ahead of your ship to find landmass.

 

Anyways... what is being asked for is to have the same features implemented as the tools available in the age of sails. Sextant would allow you to find your latitude with fairly good accuracy. That means you know exactly how far north / south you are on a map, but not your east/west longitude.

 

However, considering we are playing the game with ships such as the HMS Victory which was launched in 1765 available to us, this means we are in an era of time post 1765, and the improved H4 chronometer was invented in 1761. So this means, technically and historically, chronometers would be available on our ships in-game to estimate our longitude as well.

 

Put together, this means we can find latitude using sextants and longitude using chronometer... ergo, both historically and realistically we ARE able to find our position at sea with the tools available in the timeline we are playing the game in, given the date of the ships and when they were built and launched. Heck, the USS Constitution was launched in 1797, decades after the chronometer was invented.

 

So there is, in fact, no reason whatsoever, historically and realistically, why we are sailing around half-blind like the Greeks in a Trireme in 700 B.C.

 

The only reason we are apparently doing so in the game is because either

1. they have not yet implemented the navigation as a skill, because crew is not implemented yet, ergo there is nothing to tie the navigation skill to.
2. they have not yet implemented navigational aids, such as sextant and chronometers as tools you can buy for your ship and crew (though sextant would obviously be the bare minimum of default navigational aids.
3. they are listening to the masochistic part of the community which revels in having to eyeball their course and refuse to acknowledge that the ships we play in this game existed in an era where they were fully capable of finding the location of their ship.

The only reasons for being lost as sea in the timeline of the ships available to us is;

1. a crew with poor skill in navigation
2. bad weather, overcast, rain and/or storms negating the use of sextant for finding latitude.
3. no charts for the current waters
4. not having a chronometer installed on the ship

When crew is added, then add navigation as a skill which is reflected in the quality of the crew and availability of charts, chronometers etc to give a bonus, or penalty, to the accuracy of your ships position in the game.

 

Again... bottom line is....

 

All the tools required to find the ships position are available, as in invented and in use, in the timeline that the ships we can sail were actually sailing on the open seas.

[Tremor]

+1 for getting a marker.

[Aubrey]

All the tools required to find the ships position are available, as in invented and in use, in the timeline that the ships we can sail were actually sailing on the open seas.

All nice and good - but they still had to WORK to get their position and then it was also just an estimation, no pin point "you are here!" marker.

Additionally, bad weather can make you blind at sea, that is also a factor.

 

As long as we don't have these tools or a way to work to know our position, I prefer the 700BC Trireme way any day before over-simplifying things.

[Mansen]

People aren't asking for magic markers, or pinpoint GPS positions (which we can get through F11 and some out-of-game tools).

 

Several people ARE in fact asking for GPS. Not that the F11 exploit is an excuse either.

[Vandarix]

I found a solution for all of you in 10 seconds http://www.blocklayer.com/protractor-printeng.aspxprint it out and stick it to your screen.

[Ghroznak]

All nice and good - but they still had to WORK to get their position and then it was also just an estimation, no pin point "you are here!" marker.

 

Additionally, bad weather can make you blind at sea, that is also a factor.

 

As long as we don't have these tools or a way to work to know our position, I prefer the 700BC Trireme way any day before over-simplifying things.

 

I've already proposed that you will only see circle as an overlay on your map to indicate the general area you are within, and for the accuracy of this circle to be dependent on; 1) crew skill (officers), 2) weather conditions, 3) quality of equipment (e.g. charts, sextants, chronometers etc). This way you never get a pinpoint GPS position, but an estimation of the general area you are in.

 

Secondly, I also covered weather conditions being part of what causes you to become blind at sea. With no sun or stars in the sky due to clouds, as well as lowered visibility due to storms, rain and more you would not be able to get an accurate reading for either longitude or latitude references.

 

Thirdly... if you prefer to sail by dead-reckoning, then nothing is preventing you from doing that. In fact, most would still be sailing through dead reckoning by recognizing the islands they are sailing past. So navigational aids added to the game where you can get a rough estimate of your current position, as shown by an overlaid circle on the map (e.g. similar to circle that appears if you open map while docked) would only really be useful when you are sailing far away from land (e.g crossing large empty bodies of water) and you need to confirm your location to ensure that a) you are on course and how much further are you going.

 

Again, to re-iterate for sake of emphasis... it's not about having pinpoint GPS location...

 

It's about having a rough estimation of where you are.

 

Being able to confirm that where you think you are, based on the compass heading you started sailing towards and your feel for how far you think you have sailed is in the broad vicinity of where you actually are, as given by measuring your location through use of sextants and chronometers.

I found a solution for all of you in 10 seconds http://www.blocklayer.com/protractor-printeng.aspxprint it out and stick it to your screen.

 

That does nothing to verify your current location.

[Aubrey]

That could work, and I like the idea that the accuracy would depend on your officers as well, it would add to the "you are the Captain of the ship, not the nanny" feeling and would make crew more important / add more depth to them. Or any depth for the world-map, that is.

 

Question is what the devs plans are regarding that. If there are any...

[maturin]

 

If you want everyone to use map and compass, the first thing you should strive towards is getting rid of the GPS location in the F11 menu as those coordinates should not be visible to players in the first place and simply be added as information that tags along with the bug report without us (the players) seeing it at all, thus only available to the devs.

 

Then you should strive towards getting rid of the large circle that shows up on the map when you are in a port.

 

Thirdly you should strive towards them removing the Home button free camera which can be used as a UAV drone to scout ahead of your ship to find landmass.

#1 and #3 are testing/debug tools and everyone thinks that they are going away.

 

#2 is nothing but an indication of reinforcement radius in port, and is useless for navigation, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

 

 

The problem with adding deep navigation is that it makes everything way too easy. We don't deserve to have the full suite of instruments when we also have ridiculous advantages over historical navigators.

 

• No leeway
• No currents
• No tide
• Constant wind
• Perfect steering
• Perfect 'chronometers'
• Better visibility
• Exaggerated topography for gaining an offing

You're asking for an abacus when you already have a calculator.

 

But as always, add all the instruments you want, so long as it's the player doing the work. And people will still whine. We have perfect GPS coordinates now, but people are too goddamn lazy to plot the position themselves.

[Admiral 8Q]

You need an A.I. to show where you are on the map, and can't figure it out yourself, huh?

This isn't even close to the age of radar and where everywhere has been basically charted. Make your own map with a circle and compas. I do. 

Yes some in-game navigational tools would be cool, but unnecessary. 

Being able to mark spots on the map would be nice. Taking an angle from a marked spot to a destination, that is the kind of tools I'd like to see. Not a radar or gps style position indicator. Or a circle.

[Admiral 8Q]

Several people ARE in fact asking for GPS. Not that the F11 exploit is an excuse either.

Hell, if some people need to use google earth or whatever, then let them. That is kind of sad really.

[Admiral 8Q]

(Ok, my last rant on this topic for awhile.)

Do you think they had up to date position indicators in the age of sailing?
It was a guess. Many times, actually most times way off. Even with sextants and maps and books it was always a guess.
There was no precise indicator minute by minute. There could be weeks or months of overcast weather. Sextant is useless then.

[Rubble]

Its a curse on the gaming industry these days for developers to take all the challenge away and put things on a plate for players.

 

I sincerely hope Naval action does not go this way, its a slippery slope.

[Aetrion]

The current map is just silly. I mean sure, they had no GPS back in the day, but they weren't completely clueless about their position either. since they could chart their position somewhat accurately by just measuring their speed and what direction they had been travelling. Celestial navigation was also a thing that worked pretty damn well.

 

Maybe the game shouldn't have a direct position indicator, but why can't it have an approximation where it shows the rough area you're in that can be updated at certain times of day, and attempts to chart where you're going based on your movement.

[maturin]

 

 

since they could chart their position somewhat accurately by just measuring their speed and what direction they had been travelling.

So what's stopping you from doing that? The devs want you to do the work yourself, not just snooze while some code updates itself.

 

You have perfect "celestial" navigation through F11 as well.

[Bach]

The current map is just silly. I mean sure, they had no GPS back in the day, but they weren't completely clueless about their position either. since they could chart their position somewhat accurately by just measuring their speed and what direction they had been travelling. Celestial navigation was also a thing that worked pretty damn well.

 

Maybe the game shouldn't have a direct position indicator, but why can't it have an approximation where it shows the rough area you're in that can be updated at certain times of day, and attempts to chart where you're going based on your movement.

The current map is just silly. I mean sure, they had no GPS back in the day, but they weren't completely clueless about their position either. since they could chart their position somewhat accurately by just measuring their speed and what direction they had been travelling. Celestial navigation was also a thing that worked pretty damn well.

 

Maybe the game shouldn't have a direct position indicator, but why can't it have an approximation where it shows the rough area you're in that can be updated at certain times of day, and attempts to chart where you're going based on your movement.

No, 1700s navigators were not clueless. They had just enough information that with a little math they could figure it out.

We're not completely clueless either. We have just enough information that using a little math we can future it out.

What the 1700's didn't have was an easy button on the compass that interpreted the data and did the math for them.

You know, that thing some players are asking for in this game so they don't have to do the math. If you want to catch my cargo ship in open ocean you should have to do the math.

[Aetrion]

So what's stopping you from doing that? The devs want you to do the work yourself, not just snooze while some code updates itself.

 

 

Oh get off it.

 

For one, do they give you the tools for that in the game? Do I have a drawing compass and a pen, and a ruler on my map? I don't think so.

 

And secondly, would it be worth doing even if they did, given that they shrunk the map down so much that a sea voyage takes minutes, maybe hours, but never days and weeks? I mean during what time am I supposed to head into my cabin and chart my direction and speed on a map?

 

It's totally silly to smugly insist the navigation needs to be 100% realistic in a game where the size of the world is like 0.1% realistic. 

 

 

 

You could just as well demand that repair kits were replaced with having to mail woodworking projects to Game Labs' office.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Aetrion

[Prater]

Oh get off it.

 

For one, do they give you the tools for that in the game? Do I have a drawing compass and a pen, and a ruler on my map? I don't think so.

 

And secondly, would it be worth doing even if they did, given that they shrunk the map down so much that a sea voyage takes minutes, maybe hours, but never days and weeks? I mean during what time am I supposed to head into my cabin and chart my direction and speed on a map?

 

It's totally silly to smugly insist the navigation needs to be 100% realistic in a game where the size of the world is like 0.1% realistic. 

 

 

 

You could just as well demand that repair kits were replaced with having to mail woodworking projects to Game Labs' office.

 

On the trips that take 2 hours, such as Wilmington to Bermuda, and that is a medium sized journey. 

[maturin]

Oh get off it.

 

For one, do they give you the tools for that in the game? Do I have a drawing compass and a pen, and a ruler on my map? I don't think so.

 

And secondly, would it be worth doing even if they did, given that they shrunk the map down so much that a sea voyage takes minutes, maybe hours, but never days and weeks? I mean during what time am I supposed to head into my cabin and chart my direction and speed on a map?

 

It's totally silly to smugly insist the navigation needs to be 100% realistic in a game where the size of the world is like 0.1% realistic. 

 

 

 

You could just as well demand that repair kits were replaced with having to mail woodworking projects to Game Labs' office.

If the map is so tiny, why are you worrying about navigation to begin with?

 

Even the hardcore navigation enthusiasts want a better compass.

[Aetrion]

 

On the trips that take 2 hours, such as Wilmington to Bermuda, and that is a medium sized journey. 

 

 

And that somehow makes a difference to how silly it is to ask for people to try and realistically navigate?

 

This game doesn't even have any real ways to get lost as long as you plan your course well before you set off. There are no ocean currents that carry you sideways without you noticing, so you can't  just miss the island you were shooting for completely if you started your journey going in the right direction. There are also no imperfect maps with serious scale distortions, which were a huge problem back in the day. (In fact that's still a huge problem with maps today, because despite satellite photography and measurements you can't draw a perfectly scale map of a round planet on a flat piece of paper)

 

It's literally just being inconvenient for inconveniences sake. There is no serious gameplay challenge in figuring out where you are unless you play black out drunk and log off in the middle of the ocean, so why make it so complicated? Even if there was a serious challenge involved here where you would easily get lost without charting your course, the game needs tools for it, and not some website to plug measurements into.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Aetrion