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Is ammo needed?


Ammo for units  

219 members have voted

  1. 1. Is ammo important for the Battle of Gettysburg?

    • Ammo is not needed because we consider that it is sufficient for one single battle
      122
    • Ammo must be limited and can be depleted during each battle, no matter the cost for AI and gameplay
      97


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There is currently a dillema. Should we use Limited ammo or it should be unlimited?

The problem is that if we implement ammo the AI can be confused a lot. AI may want to charge only (not good for a civil war game) or this simply will reduce its effectiveness. Player can have issues for units that stand and do nothing, for example Artillery. There are ideas to implement ammo shortage for a brigade in our thinking table but for now we would like your simple opinion about this matter by voting.

 

Of course you can write your thoughts below.

PS.
Ammo opens opportunities for supply implementation and other tactical aspects. Just to note.

 

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I would say this should be part of an eventual larger strategic  layer as on a tactical level it's simply going to be throwing in a sudden task of playing the quartermaster as well as the General. Rather keep such on a larger strategic level where there might be more to gained from fiddling around with that.

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Hi all :)  As soon i saw and i knew this topic would popup at some time soon.  It´s really nothing strange as this era is about powder and ammo. But the queastion reminds, what kind of ammo shortens and effectiveness reducment should this game offer and implement?

 

Can we live with mini ammo shortens, Ammo slowly by units and arty drops down, create a short pause or fire much slower and 75% less powerful?

 

Or use another new unit whom resupply inf and arty units incase it stands close by?

 

How will the AI act with all this kind of diff new ammo supply ideas?

 

Will it be realistic or fun or boring, or a great representation of realism and tactical informative incase we are playing 1 vs 1 in MP?  No reforcment no resupply on enemies rigth flank,  Perhaps my hidden reserves have a apportunity to fix bayonet and CHARGE rigth now?

 

I understand fully of what Nick is saying about the AI behavor that it might charge head on, Would the AI understand then it could very well vanish in meele with no back up support to hold up the new line + doing so with out new ammo, what would be the AI´s purpose to do so?  Holding a new taken ground with out ammo, when in about 5 - 10min two new enemy units with full loaded ammo approching em, and ofc will use the long range to make em panic, and then the enemy repair the frontline etc etc.

 

A mini fiction realism ammo supply could be created,  The terran of open passage and roads, Trees and rough rocks RED ZONES,  Musket units who fire faster then the resupply could resupply up the units will drain low on there ammo much faster then others who stands close to a road?

 

Or use that Ammo resupply unit that following a few units at the front, line connected to another Ammo resupply unit that is stucked at the HQ?  So now it all deppendly is about the range from A to B + how the terren looks like, the harder it´s to get there due to the nature, the slower the frontal units get up there fully potential ammo energy bar up?  etc etc...

 

I also have no idea how long time those brigades or battalions lastings when they start to shoot on each other.  1-5 or 10 minuts? Some units fire and loading faster then others, as 1863 there was incredible alot of Veterans and famouse regiments out there, on both sides.

 

Sorry for a long text and my gramma Nick. Trying hard and with little mechanic and view of how this game works. I cant provide uber great idea´s :(  :)

 

But as said before, a mini realism resupply line can be created, it will minimize i believe AI dumb behevors i believe.  And to create up a bigger realism ammo resupply that works great and easy and a strategical momentium + if the AI can work with it, i believe it´s also a good idea. The cause and posibilites are all up to you in this project to resolve and to experiment ;)

 

My hopes units and frontlines lasting for 20-30 minutes or something, like the very old games, compared to those musket units from TW,  To with draw some units, reform, replace. Draw in new reserves, resupply ammo and gain new moral and back to the front,  We cannot allow the enemy to break here. we stay and die on the spot etc etc ;)

 

mmmm... Oh well enough from me and ideas and a bet " Day Dreaming from me " Am sure of many others will have some great super ideas to my friend :)

 

BR AN.

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Ammunition and other supplies would be a very good addition if realism is the focus of this game. If ammunition and ammunition resupply is implemented, I'd argue that it's relatively simple to add a pre-battle option allowing players to toggle whether ammunition is limited or unlimited - for players not interested in the extra effort of dealing with ammunition.

 

If the issue for ammunition confusing the AI is solvable, then I'd argue that ammunition usage would greatly add to the authenticity and tactical depth of the game and improve it overall. Furthermore, if there is an option to toggle ammunition, then players who dislike extra realism won't be left out.

 

This becomes a question of whether it's worthwhile to invest resources into making the AI work effectively with ammunition.

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July 2nd, 1863:  Lt. Col. Chamberlain is ordered to hold the left flank of the Union Army at all costs.  Men from the 15th Alabama continue to push up the hill, and are repulsed time and again until the 20th Maine is almost doubled back on itself.  With ammunition running low, only a few rounds left to each man, and stripping the dead and dying of their remaining rounds, Chamberlain, a Bowdoin Professor, decides to fix bayonets and charge.

 

403_2.jpg

 

 

tumblr_ljh3qnIUVx1qa5pb1o1_500.jpg

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I'm not so sure the positives outweigh the negatives with regards to ammo. Though really I need to see more of the game and how the mechanics play out at the moment I'd say leave it out.

 

If the game plays out in a realistic manner without the need to bring in ammo supply mechanic then as I said leave it out, however if it is obvious during play that units have unlimited ammo then there is a problem again it's tough to answer without seeing the game in action or playing it for awhile.

 

I think you need to base your thinking on whether the game needs the mechanic to stay within realistic boundaries or not. 

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I think ammo should be a part of the concept you've already introduced: If you Loose too many soldiers early on, it will affect later battles.

Same here - supplies actually were a great problem for the South, and as soon as they attacked Northern heartland, they pillaged the countryside and towns.

 

Of course one must be aware of not ending up with too much micro-management if too many details are taken into the battles.

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What I would do is have ammo unlimited unless the enemy cuts off your supply lines. For example the confederates came from the west and the north. If The Union are able to flank the confederates and cut off both roads that lead to Carlisle and Chambersburg then the confederate army would run out of supply after 1 turn or 1 hr of real time play. They would then only be able to fire at 10% efficiency.

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Aye true, there are many ways to create a unit ammo depletment, and Ammo transportation, We can do it semi historical real, and from a game perspective half true visiual ammo lines travels.

 

Or to do it in old classic ways, historical real and real unit moddels, and more click orders and micromanga etc etc. This will ofc be more coding and AI testings and more changes, but if it becomes correct on all grounds and fun and tactical addition. Thats another story.  

 

And ofc as in many games i do believe Nick and he´s fellow team friends will most probably come up with a campaign option menu, how real and close the player want to select all those historical simulations, Auto money, auto ammo, ON or OFF..  Slow game or Fast game.  No idea what kind of options will be in, but i do asume there will be some cool tweaks and changes for any kind of players who like the ways she/he´s playing style :)

 

But personly i have to say that, some powder/ammo games out there whom do not have depletions and do not have to think about distance and flanks, Makes atleast for me quite half disiponted, even so the game is really fun and enjoyable, but it cuts away so many ways of tactical aspect as well Strategiways views,  In World War 2 there were so many incredible factors about food,water medical, special personal, fuel, ammo etc etc..

 

And due to miss calculations by Generals or weather condition, humen errors or the enemy being more cleaver in a suprise attacks, All those importent materials or halved gone or captured, Increase us player to re think our strategies, and in game might be more fun with diffrent factors that appers, both in our favor or fails :)

 

I dont mean to create a huge hard complex boring micromanga managment, supply lines/menys.  But that the factors and situations could acure almost like that :)  With simple smart working codings and semi historical and game model visual ways of acception that this ammo supply really works and are really cool looking etc etc...

 

WIth tiresome soldiers, nearly ammo depleted soldiers, halv in streanght dead/wounded, thirst and hunger in the hot sun, CUT OFF from the main army, digged in.

 

What the options?!  Surrender? or fight on a bet longer,  Hope to link up with the main army,  Is the area really importent to hold it to the last man? Gettysburg city was almost in a way the same issiu like the Battle of the Bulge 1944,  Bastonge.  A very importent spider central road place :)

 

Maybe the game wont be so huge in Scale were we need all those kind of supply factors " I dont know ", But i do believe with a minor ammo depletion and resupply tire some units peacefully and bost there moral again, so they can be effecly again, Can maybe give us players some more fun and semi historical truthness to a such amazing historical event as Gettysburg battle. 

 

Sorry for a long post everyone, i did it again, day/night dreaming :)

 

BR AN.

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Ammo could potentially add too much to pet-peeve micromanaging to the game. What made Total War a pain was the sheer amount of APM you had to make to get units to do simple things. Some of this was because of the sheer amount of mundane variables you had to consider when manipulate your unit. Ammo-micro was always one of the most annoying things to come across, especially as it often cluttered your schedule at the worst time, the most frantic parts of the battle. In Ultimate General, considering that it will be played on tablets as well as PC, I wonder whether the nuisance of it will outweigh the potential immersion-gain.

 

The only instance where I would fully support the idea is if it is a really rare occurrence, something that is tied to an unorthodox/high risk strategy. I.e. If you send a brigade on it's own around the back of the enemy army so that it's completely cut off from your own. There should be no irritating ammo-related micromanagement from units in the main battle-line. This then leads me on to say that perhaps supply chains are the way to go. Distance from the 'supply chain' (where the main army spawned, or nearby) should determine whether it gets automatic resupplying or not. Perhaps you can represent the 'strength' of the supply link to a single brigade by a little tracer or arrow behind them, originating from the army spawn location. Or perhaps a less intrusive solution such as merely highlighting the unit in some way as 'cut-off' from the supply chain.

 

Either way, if you're going to have it, don't make ammo a chore, rather make it a limitation on single, crazy unit manoeuvers (like sending 1 brigade half way around the map on its own). - This way you potentially solve 2 problems in one, you give incentive for a player to keep a coherent forum and not rely on nuisance, micro-intensive skirmish-flank tactics (something that the AI will have a hard time dealing with) and you also give due representation to a very real dilemma of ammo-stocks in battle.

 

Look forward to what you come up with.

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I'd love to see ammo as an option to increase realism, but I also see the risk of having it cause problems with the gameplay.  Ammo and supply depletion in general are of massive importance to campaign movements and multi-battle chains.  However, the reality is that lack of ammo was a less significant issue in any individual battle, and it did not play any significant part at Gettysburg.  People can cite Little Round Top all they want, but it was still the exception to the rule and, at the end of the day, even there they didn't actually run out.  Plus, the hilarious part of that example is that, by modern gameplay-supply standards, the units on Little Round Top should have had a perfectly intact supply line with ammo flowing to them.  In order to properly simulate Little Round Top, you'd have to have units run out of ammo simply due to being involved in heavy combat, even though there is a protected supply line from their rear to the army's supply dump.  I think that adding in a system like that would actually result in units running low on ammo far more often than actually occurred historically.

 

Is it possible to add in ammo, but then have a gameplay settings checkbox where people can turn it off if they prefer to play with unlimited?

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Is it possible to add in ammo, but then have a gameplay settings checkbox where people can turn it off if they prefer to play with unlimited?

 

Imo, it's important that there should be 1 streamlined experience for the whole player base, as it is prospectively small at the moment. And I especially don't think it's worth dichotomising a player base such a small issue like ammo, something that can surely be solved by a bit of developer decisiveness or even creative ingenuity. If the player base is to be split, it shouldn't be for mitigating the incongruence of some feature, it should be for something more positive, otherwise you're going to find 'unlimited ammo noob' haters and 'ammo hoarder camper' haters on either side of the prospective community.

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Imo, it's important that there should be 1 streamlined experience for the whole player base, as it is prospectively small at the moment. And I especially don't think it's worth dichotomising a player base such a small issue like ammo, something that can surely be solved by a bit of developer decisiveness or even creative ingenuity. If the player base is to be split, it shouldn't be for mitigating the incongruence of some feature, it should be for something more positive, otherwise you're going to find 'unlimited ammo noob' haters and 'ammo hoarder camper' haters on either side of the prospective community.

I completely agree 

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Limited ammo is really tricky in my eyes. Generally speaking, if you have to compromise between better AI and limited ammo, go for the AI. I am perfectly happy to just imagine that they have invisible runners that make sure they don't run out of ammo.

 

If you do want to have limited ammo though, I could think of some interesting ways to implement it:

 

For example:

A limited maximum amount of ammo that regenerates. The regeneration-rate is notably lower than the rate of fire of a full unit, meaning that if a unit is in an extraordinarily lengthy engagement they will eventually run out and have to be pulled back from the front line to give it time to replenish. Generally speaking I'd say that the firefight should have to be extraordinarily long for that to happen though - a unit in a good defensive position should have enough ammo to break at least 2-3 enemy units before they're out of ammo.

 

Working from there, one could add either mobile or static ammo magazines from which the units draw their supplies. If the supply line from a unit to its magazine is cut, it no longer replenishes. Furthermore, the magazine could be captured by infantry/cavalry (giving morale penalties similar to a general's death) or straight up blown up by a lucky artillery shell.

 

Just a few ideas to play with. That being said, I want to go back to my original statement: I'd still rather have superior AI than any kind of limited ammo but... porque no los dos?

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What about an ammo shortage option to be selected for ultra realism players and unlimited for others.  Although I think the shortage of ammo can be made into the game in other ways than a unit just running out.  A supply train like in TC2 or SOW could be an option as well as the longer the unit is in constant combat the more worn and less his fire effectiveness is.

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I'd definitely prefer limited ammo. Managing and conserving ammo is part of the fun from my previous experience playing turn based wargames. Limited ammo forces you to think about and make more effiecient firing decisions. With unlimted ammo, you can just fire at anything that moves which is arcadey and really not fun.

 

However, as you have pointed out, teaching the AI to manage supply effectively may be difficult. I hope you can pull it off though.

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In the old Talonsoft Battleground games (not sure if you remember those), there were supply wagon units. Supply wagons needed to be within range of units in order for units to restock ammo at the end of the day. So you could have a situation where if you capture or cut off the enemy's supply wagons using cavalry the enemy units not within range of a wagon will run out of ammo on the following day.  It will be great if you can implement something like this in the game. This way supply lines become an important strategic consideration and it is not all about the frontline.

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Just a suggestion, to make sense to bring "hors" into a battle. I would connect ammo availability to line of communication / supply... if a brigade is cut-off... the ammo should be limited. This would promote using "hors" (best task after scouting) to cut-off troops. I would use the strategic map to visualise... where and how one brigade is cut-off from the rest of the troops. Bad morale ,loss commander and no ammo should affect troops and result of surrender... putting down their weapons or runaway.

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If you are going to add in ammunition depletion, IMO you also have to add in capturing small arms and ammunition from the enemy.  A significant proportion of all CSA arms and ammunition (from small arms right up to artillery and naval vessels) throughout the entire war were captured from the Union, not only through raids but also picked up directly on the battlefield itself.  It was very common for CSA soldiers to pick up higher quality Union weapons right in the middle of battle and use them.  It even got to extreme levels, such as at Petersburg, where CSA soldiers would run out and dig up (under fire) fallen Union shot and unexploded shells to use in their own artillery pieces.  The lesson to this is that soldiers are inventive and will find a way to kill each other.  Ammunition shortages are certainly realistic, but there were many methods of avoiding it or getting around a shortage other than simply getting a supplies from your baggage train.  If you ignore things like that then you're just adding on another layer of fiction under a disguise of historical accuracy.  If you're going to go for realism on ammunition, you might as well go all the way.  Ammunition should stay with fallen soldiers, and that ammunition should be available to any unit, Union or Confederate, that moves over the spot where the soldiers fell.  The same should apply to captured artillery.

 

At the same time, it's stuff like this that makes me urge caution in going too far towards realism.  You can make this a very realistic game, but doing so might make it a pain in the ass to play and might make the AI completely incompetent.  Please remember that one of the reasons we all loved your TW mods so much was because CA consistently did a poor job on its AI.  I would far prefer a challenging and interesting game with less realism than a realistic game that is not challenging.  If you can achieve both, that would be superb, but make sure you can actually do that.

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