Did I do it wrong?

[Diceman]

Keep fighting. Never quit.

[Jeheil]

If you have the smallest glimpse of hope kite-fight....if the timer is close to pulling off a draw kite-fight.

 

If you are in a bathtub...full of holes...and there is 20 minutes to go...and you have 3 healthy better ships pursuing you....well do the right thing STAND and fight.....

 

That's my rule.

 

Now if one of the pursuers has exhibited noblike behaviour in chat prior to the finale I reserve the right to Spite-Kite.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jeheil

[Sin Khan]

Is it Rude? - Yes it is rude. Rude to a person who is trying to end your ship and your game. So who the heck cares if the enemy thinks what you are doing is rude! Sink the enemy by any means necessary!

 

Did you do something wrong? No, the enemy made a mistake in thinking that you would just lay down and die!

 

You did everything right!

 

Yes, it is a testing environment. Yes, it is a timed event. Yes, is is a closed map. But these are all constraints that will be removed soon. What will not be removed is that some jerk is trying to gun you down and you are outnumbered 3 to 1. So they are pissed that you are no laying down and dying. So what! Get pissed right back that they expected you to lay down and die in the first place! What these other players need is exactly what you are giving them, a dose of what is to come. You run, you flee, you become tenacious, you never lay down and die. If they want to end you and your ship then they will have to pay a heavy dang price for it.

 

It is your job to fight to stay alive no matter what. If you do not do that, then you are doing a disservice to every other player in the game who is also here testing this game. We are tying to make the game better, not a 3 minuet cage match. Some players have gotten used to the idea of the game being a cage match, well, they are mistaken completely and it is about time that they begin to realize what this game is going to be about. 

 

I say, don't even fight at all sometimes and just run away until the time ends. When they complain, say, "This is an open world pre-test game strategy" and leave it at that. Let them stew completely with the reality that this game is not a 3 minuet cage match and never will be.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Mr. Khan, we are not currently testing "Open World Tactics".  This is Sea Trials, we are testing ship to ship combat and balance.  That does not include running away the whole match without trying to engage.  The circle has been added, please fight your ship.  Once the Open World is available for testing, there will be plenty of time to experiment with the instance escape mechanics. 

 

PvP is free for all.
If there is an etiquette (like not running from battle during sea trials) we enforce it by design - like the battle circle.

 

 

The goal of this patch is to improve balancer and battle creation, and to increase comfort of gameplay, that was not considered before with smaller number of testers. 

 

Important Changes

1. PvP is back with improved balancer. Every ship has a battle rating now, which is used to balance the battles. All players entering PvP room are collected on one side of the balancer and sides are determined automatically. Players wont be able to exit the balancer if there are more than 1 player in the room. Timers cannot be reset. 
2. Ship unlocks received a soft wipe. To move to the next ship you now have to deal damage. Win requirement is gone until further notice. You might get a better or worse ship depending on the damage you dealt last week. 
3. To fix running in battles we have implemented a temporary mechanic similar to Battle Royale from ARMA 3. We have added a battle zone into PVP battles - this zone gets smaller as the battle progresses. If you leave this zone you will receive 2 min warning to return. If you don't return in 2 mins your ship will be destroyed. The zone is visually ON on default for all players - you can switch it off by pressing N
4. Wind change implemented for more comfortable gameplay. Once every N minutes wind changes direction. 

Other changes 

• Timers are fixed and no longer reset. 
• Structural leaks that you get if you broadsides are destroyed are increased 
• Number of bots in PVE is reduced 
• Improved wind angles for for-and-aft rigs
• Changes to wind angles for Trincomalee and Constitution will come monday (did not finish tuning yet)
• Yacht and Cutter speed is increased
• Lynx speed is somewhat reduced
• Developer messaging system implemented to send messages to ALL players in lobby and battles
• New bugs and problems introduced

Work on the player guide has resumed (starting version will be in English)

 

patch will be deployed today

 

Update- kills are awarded based on damage - not on last shot

Update 2 - some players have not received the ship they deserved according to damage model - around 10 players could be affected (mostly in high level ships) we are investigating

 

[Grim DeGrim]

Mr Sin Khan, If there were a disagree button, I would hit it forcefully upon your post. But as communicated to Mr AwakwardDavies, I will not press further on his forum thread, despite my reservations. Except to forcefully disagree with your statements. I am glad Mr. Darby brings us back to written rules and desired intent of sea trials...

[Sin Khan]

 

 

PvP is free for all.

If there is an etiquette (like not running from battle during sea trials) we enforce it by design - like the battle circle.

 

Ok read this again very slowly since apparently even moderators do not know what this means. "Free for All" means anything goes. Etiquette is to be enforced "By Design" not by the mob! Your pressuring other players to play this game in a manner not conducive to "Normal Practices" is what will ruin this game. Let people Run! Let people choose not to fight! If the current system makes you mad then CHANGE THE SYSTEM BY DESIGN! You should not be forcing players to change their play style and battle tactics to fit your desires. Instead, you change the game. That is what testing is all about. Lower the timer, make the circle drop faster, do anything other than trying to force people to play the way you want them too, because it will never happen anyway and it should never happen this way.

 

You act like the players who want to do something different are WRONG! No, it is you that is wrong for demanding that other players DO AS YOU DEMAND with their ship and game slot. What we have here is a bunch of people who have apparently never been in a testing environment before. I have also noticed a heavy handed totalitarian peer pressure system going on here. 

[ObiQuiet]

I think you gentlemen may be confusing each other. Do you really disagree on these points?

1. Verbal abuse of other players - not ok?

2. Fighting to the end, even against long odds - is it ok?

3. Running away and not fighting - not ok?

(In some cases #2 looks to the opponent like #3.)

Edited March 11, 2015 by Lt. Obiquiet

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Ok read this again very slowly since apparently even moderators do not know what this means. "Free for All" means anything goes. Etiquette is to be enforced "By Design" not by the mob! Your pressuring other players to play this game in a manner not conducive to "Normal Practices" is what will ruin this game. Let people Run! Let people choose not to fight! If the current system makes you mad then CHANGE THE SYSTEM BY DESIGN! You should not be forcing players to change their play style and battle tactics to fit your desires. Instead, you change the game. That is what testing is all about. Lower the timer, make the circle drop faster, do anything other than trying to force people to play the way you want them too, because it will never happen anyway and it should never happen this way.

 

You act like the players who want to do something different are WRONG! No, it is you that is wrong for demanding that other players DO AS YOU DEMAND with their ship and game slot. What we have here is a bunch of people who have apparently never been in a testing environment before. I have also noticed a heavy handed totalitarian peer pressure system going on here.

How about we take Admin's response in context instead. Here is the original post that Admin's post that I quoted regarding a "free for all" was responding to:

 

There is a TLDR bit

 

Last night was my first session on with the Lynx, I was fortunate in that a friend of mine took me into the dual option and run me through the basics, after which we decided to jump into a PVE battle. A problem quickly arose when on clicking what I thought was small ship PVE I actually put myself into PVP mode and not the small ships PVP mode either. Their seems to be an issue with the lobby in windowed mode the mouse position does not match the buttons on my system I shall confirm tonight and log it as a bug. Anyway,  I quickly tried to exit, but even leaving the game whilst the timer was running simply placed me back into the same queue when I restarted.

 

Resigned to my fate and with my friend in a somewhat humorous state of mind, told me to press tab and read out what was on the screen, each line read seemed to provoke convulsions of laughter. None the less I left him in no doubt I fully expected his help here in terms of tactics. He advised for me to try and stay in a position with the bigger boats between me and the enemy load chain and pop out and aim at the sails take shots initially tactic did not seem to work as ranges to enemy ships was seemingly beyond my guns reach. However, things did eventually get closer and  I was starting to hit sails, My friend then said as I get closer look for opportunity’s particularly on the smaller looking ships, so switch from side to side I was looking for shots eventually I was shot down but lasted 30+ minutes and accumulated 1026 damage, not the worst in the team which did ultimately win. Now I am under no illusions my friend was the big winner here, and I suspect my ship was not really considered a threat so was not targeted but I had a great deal of fun and I am now hooked on this game.

 

TLDR

The question is it good etiquette for a small boat like the Lynx to be in the large ship PVP battle as i would like to do that again?                                   

PvP is a free for all was in response to this Captain's question as to whether or not it is ok for a small ship to be in the full PvP room.  Admin then went on to indicate that if they do not want something to happen, they will use game mechanics to restrict it, he then referenced the other post I quoted where they added a circle to PvP to prevent people from running away down wind the entire fight and forcing all of the ships to spend a long time chasing them down.  Open World escape tactics are for Open World, Sea Trials is to test sailing characteristics and combat mechanics.  Now that we have a circle, as I indicated above, running away while within the circle and staying out of range is within the rules.  The rules being, sail outside of the circle and you get sunk after a certain time period.  At the moment, anything inside of that circle is fair game.

 

Now, with regards to your assertion that people are being totalitarian, wasn't it you who just yesterday argued that there should be no limits on behavior other than what the community as a whole will tolerate, with the community shunning and providing negatives for that behavior if they found it objectionable?  How can you then argue that people are wrong to tell others they disagree with their playstyle and encourage them to approach the game differently?  The OP specifically asked the community's opinion about their actions, the community has responded, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

As to testing, this is an early Alpha Test.  Alpha testing is marked with particular objectives and instructions for data gathering and play-test information.  We already know that you can drag a fight out for an extremely long time by refusing to engage and running as hard as you can in the other direction.  Trust me, it works, it doesn't need to be done by players match after match.

 

 

I think you gentlemen may be confusing each other. Do you really disagree on these points?

1. Verbal abuse of other players - not ok?

2. Fighting to the end, even against long odds - is it ok?

3. Running away and not fighting - not ok?

(In some cases #2 looks to the opponent like #3.)

 

The following are my personal opinion only - not an official stance of Game Labs:

 

1.  If the player isn't using the insult generator, not ok.  Treat each other with respect, use the insult generator if you must directly address someone in a negative manner, and have fun shooting at each other.

2.  Situational.  In my opinion, if the enemy is strung out, and you have a legitimate chance of killing them one at a time, great!  Do so.  I've personally done this in a Surprise solo against a Snow and two Cutters.  The Cutters left the Snow alone by tacking early, so I ran the Snow downwind alone and killed him.  I then let the Cutters approach, but they were working together very well and causing me quite a bit of damage, so I maneuvered them onto opposite tacks and then ran one of them downwind while his mate tried to catch up.  After I killed him, I turned and killed the final ship (and they had done a lot of damage to me in the mean time - it was close).  Using distance to even the odds, if you're actively fighting is good gameplay.  On the other hand, if you're a Surprise and the enemy has a Bellona, Constitution, and a couple of Trincomalees left, and you're just running full tilt away with no efforts to engage them to draw the match out, this is pretty mean-spirited - again, in my opinion only.

3.  Running away and flat out not fighting - why are you in a PvP match at all?  This is letting down your fellow teammates, and adding frustration to folks that are looking for a great, fun match.  Go play PvE and sail away to your heart's content.  The bots won't mind.

 

 

Now, let's please bring this thread back onto the OP's original topic and away from community management and behavior.  Thank you.

[AwkwardDavies]

Well I'm sorry this has, in spite of my best efforts, resulted in bad feelings.  I agree with Sin Khan. And I agree with Henry d'Esterre Darby. You both make good points, and you both are wrong in areas. Please, don't let my question come between either of you and having a good time. 

 

Yes, Mr. Darby, this is an Alpha test. We are here to help the developers produce a game that will be fantastic for us, and for those who come after us.  We shouldn't be focused only on winning. But by the same token, different play styles will have to be taken into account (and thus, allowed) in order for the Dev's to know what programmatic constraints are needed to keep the play moving along in the best manner for all.  Thus kiting is not 'bad' or actionable; whereas abusing another player because of his playing style is. None of which obviates my obligation to play in a way that is not bad-mannered to other players. 

 

To me, this means that my 'fighting retreat' (as I prefer to call it, as 'kiting' sounds too much like avoiding battle) is valid, and not rude. IF I am, in fact, fighting. (Which I have already indicated to be the case.)

 

And yes, Sir Khan...'free for all' in context (even in the stipulated context of the original post) means that anything goes, within the limits of the game. The circle is there to stop all-out fleeing simply to force a draw.  IRL I'd take my cutter behind an island and go for the shoal waters if I were being chased by big frigates, and to hell with fighting. That isn't a possibility now BECAUSE of the controls in place to keep us playing as the Dev's need us to. And any limitations programmed or requested by the Dev's should be met with wholehearted approbation and cooperation on every side.  

 

Have fun out there. I know I will!

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Mr. Davies, you have my deepest respect sir.  Stringing out one's opponents while still fighting them is a good tactic, and one I've used myself.  I believe the issue we run into in this thread is that it is a very situational tactic, that can be the perfect response in one circumstance, and griefing in another (understand I'm not saying you're a griefer sir!).  I believe one's motives are the primary factor in whether or not it is acceptable to "run", and I know you do so only out of the best intentions.

 

No worries, I actually appreciate your making this topic, it has generated a lot of very spirited and lively debate!

[Grim DeGrim]

This thread is killing me! 

 

The original intent was to get feedback on a poll.  As you can see at the top of the thread, the poll was:  "Should a player quit a battle when its hopeless?"  On its own, the easy answer is to say "No, you should not".  But the poll lacks the context of what Mr Awkward was really inquiring on.

 

I look at all those "No's" and I instinctively know that half the storm quitters are the ones saying "No, you shouldn't quit".  But that is pure speculation.  So let's stick to the facts that were presented with the topic.  There are 3 main points provided and 2 inquiries, and then a number of clarifications / supplemental bits.  See below.

 

 

Point #1... a player on the other team making ... comments about my play ... [said] that I was an idiot and a bad player.

Point #2 ... I didn't give up. He was mad that the game went 10 minutes longer because they had to chase me down. I spent my time running, then jigging to fire into the pursuers...

Point #3 ... I was totally outclassed by the three on the other team.

 

Inquiry #1 ... Did I screw up by fighting to the end, or is that the  point of the game?

Inquiry #2 ... [is it] considered rude to fight a losing battle [interpretation:  what is the accepted player etiquette given the points stated above]

Supplemental:  The second thing is a gripe I have about not being able to strike colors in the event you are completely hopelessly outmatched. 

Supplemental:  It is fun. I play this game to have fun ... making them WORK for it gives me pleasure. 

Supplemental: I fight on because it is my best choice, but I'd be happier to surrender and save my crew in the really bad cases. 

 

Point #1 - no on supports this person's response, regardless of the scenario.

Point #2 - This is kiting.  No statement as to right or wrong, but this is the name for this strategy that has been assigned by the community.

Point #3 - Establishes that prolonging the match served no testing purpose from an alpha perspective.  Mr Awkward was clearly destined to lose this match.

 

Inquiry #1 - Is it "wrong" to continue to fight under these circumstances.  Agreed 100%, that "No" it is not wrong.  I question the manner in which a person might choose to fight on, but we'll address that in #2.  Remember - Mr Awkward has clearly stated that there was no hope of winning.

 

Inquiry #2 - What is the etiquette under these circumstances? (this very specific, situationally defined scenario where it is 100% established that the loss is inevitable)  Prolonging the match , in my opinion, is very poor etiquette.  I do not propose he drop sails and "just quits".  I propose he chooses a more "noble" death by fighting at close range, testing himself on how long he can prolong the battle at close range.  How many additional broadsides can he get off.  This is done as a courtesy to everyone that has fought valiantly that deathmatch, but only had the misfortune of sinking earlier.  If the match was close, or victory in question, I whole heartedly support his endeavors to kite as a means to swing the tides of battle, regardless of the additional time it takes.

 

Supplemental:  Take them as you will.  While I know Mr Awkward is not intending to be purposely antagonistic, I'll draw you to the 2nd one.  "Making them WORK for it gives me pleasure".  THIS is why players take this strategy to heart and why I consider it poor etiquette.  The match is lost (as established, there is 100% no chance of victory).  Prolonging the match is very often antagonistic on the part of the final "loser" - I do not use that word as a derogatory term.  Instead it helps add perspective on why some people would employ such tactics late in a match. "If I'm going to lose, I'm going to make it painful as prolonged as possible for you as the victor" [some might even add:  to make you work for it].  This has no place in alpha testing.  You've clearly lost the match, face it nobly and respect your fellow testers.

 

For the record, I believe Mr AwkwardDavies to be a fine gentleman and make no allegation here, implied or otherwise.  Instead, I try to provide insight on why I personally frown on this situational activity.

 

This topic allows some very "awkward" discussion on a charged topic.

 

While not a court case....I rest my case

Edited March 12, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Saintduiex]

The premise of the question is that you are keeping others "waiting". What the hell are they waiting for? To discuss test results?

No. The premise of the question defines this as a game. If it was strictly test the premise is not valid.

Therefore, since the question is based on this being a game, so is the answer. So for me, without a mechanism to surrender and save your crew, my response is they can wait till hell freezes over. You can only run around a circle and if the belligerents can't figure out how to cut you off that is a failure on their part, not yours.

If a question was based on this being testing then turn around and go head first into the valley of death.

And if this were open world, not test, my response would be the same as the first.

If you treat it as a game then play it as a game. If you are treating it as testing then test and park the BS and complaining.

Just my opinion

[Macjimm]

Thank you Mr. Awkward for setting up this thread.  I gave me hope … for a while. 

 

I read what happened to you and felt similar because it had happened to me.  When I started I had no idea about the nuances of online gamer competition etiquette and complexity of testing gamplay balance.  I had thought I was testing the game mechanics of sailing, shooting and the fun that could be had in a battle.

 

When I found myself outnumbered 3-1 I did what seem natural and common sense … I fled.  That was before I had heard the term “kiting”.  My intentions were pure.  I was trying to stay alive.  I was clueless.  I thought the game was so cool and I was immersed in the moment.  But the flow of text that came from my worthy opponents made it clear that they wanted me to allow them to destroy me.  This seemed silly.  I thought that they were just luring me to my death, so I steeled myself to their insults and did my best to stay alive.  I fled in ignorance with no intention to be offensive.

 

Afterwards reading in the forums about storm quitters I decided that many here have strong opinions related to their satisfaction with “winning”.  The game must offer a very carefully crafted opportunity to obtain a victory.  Relating this to the kiting match I surmised that if a player is obviously outnumbered be must sacrifice himself reasonably quickly so as not unduly delay his enemy.  I realized how unaware I had been and began to feel poorly for offending people.  I did not consider sea trials would show failings in the open world if we did not adhere to balanced competition.

 

After a few more matches with the resolve to not “kite” and never quit prematurely I still caused more grief for others because I was out of position.  More text insults and friendly shots through my sails. 

 

I sought clarification on the forums and received some.  I wanted to know all of the actions that were not acceptable in game.  I understood the basics http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2340-important-announcement-for-new-captains/ but I was struggling to understand the unwritten rules about kiting, storm quitting, kill stealing and what-ever-unknown-gamerstyle-offence I had not thought of.  Some responses were positive but in the end the answer was basically that players are expected to just intuitively know what to do.  And there was a strong undertone that efforts to discuss it would be considered off topic and derailing the thread. 

 

It wasn’t so bad seeing the insults in text.  It was gaming with people who were so angry and offended by others who meant no harm to them.  What other things was I doing incorrectly that somewhere players were screaming at me silently.  Focusing their hate toward me. 

 

I decided to confine myself to PVE and await the open world.  I felt just a little guilty for not contributing to the testing but no one had provided me with details of what we are testing that the kiters and storm quitters can cause the test to fail so significantly.  In the end I had no idea what to look for and the rules were so elusive that they cannot be documented.

So I was encouraged when I saw your post, the poll results and all of the comments that confirmed it was okay to flee when overwhelmed.  Perhaps there was hope.  Perhaps I would be welcome in PvP and the rage was with a minority.

 

Then I read Sin Khan and I was elated.  Such a way with words.  He explained exactly how I felt except that I had not intended to insult anyone.  I do not want to be rude and I wish to game in a manner that is not considered poor mannered or unsportsmanlike.  But sacrificing myself and my ship (to appease others who want rapid closure at their terms) just seems so gamey.  But that is because I do not understand how the testing will fail if I do not push on into a fight that will destroy me.

 

At least 2 of the moderators seem to feel that discussions on this matter are not productive to I sincerely hope this post will not be interpreted as instigating discontent.

 

Thanks to Mr. Darby for his efforts on 10 Mar 2015 by highlighting the admin comments from 28 Nov 2104.  This sheds some light on the competitive game play.  But I am still at a loss as to how to make the leap from that admin guidance to “That does not include running away the whole match without trying to engage. “  I state this not to receive a stern retort but only to explain that this point is not as clear to those of us who are still learning it.  Surely you must understand we were not born with this knowledge and please accept that I mean no disrespect.

 

It still seems to me that some players are trying to force their unwritten gameplay rules on others so they can enjoy their own sense of satisfaction in a win. 

 

So I suppose I will stay away from PvP and hope that issue dissolves in the open world.

 

Thanks again Mr. Awkward for starting this thread.  It been very helpful, offered brief relief and rekindled hope for the open world\

 

EDIT:  Suppliment Thanks also to Mr. Saintduiex, I had not read your thread before posting. As a Moderator your words carry extra weight.  Perhaps there is hope.

Edited March 12, 2015 by macjimm

[Saintduiex]

Thanks to Mr. Darby for his efforts on 10 Mar 2015 by highlighting the admin comments from 28 Nov 2104. This sheds some light on the competitive game play. But I am still at a loss as to how to make the leap from that admin guidance to “That does not include running away the whole match without trying to engage. “ I state this not to receive a stern retort but only to explain that this point is not as clear to those of us who are still learning it. Surely you must understand we were not born with this knowledge and please accept that I mean no disrespect.

I believe (but I may be wrong) that the Admin wrote that PRIOR to implementing the battle circle, which was implemented due to those who would run and no way to catch them before the timer ran out. Now you can run but chances are you will get "cornered"(in a circle . ).

EDIT: Suppliment Thanks also to Mr. Saintduiex, I had not read your thread before posting. As a Moderator your words carry extra weight. Perhaps there is hope.

. Please do not add any more weight to my opinion than that of anyone else.

And there is hope. There are testers/players who try to help keep it all in perspective. It's a great game and, truly, a very awesome and unique gaming community that are second to none. Give it time and stick with it

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

...

I sought clarification on the forums and received some.  I wanted to know all of the actions that were not acceptable in game.  I understood the basics http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2340-important-announcement-for-new-captains/ but I was struggling to understand the unwritten rules about kiting, storm quitting, kill stealing and what-ever-unknown-gamerstyle-offence I had not thought of.  Some responses were positive but in the end the answer was basically that players are expected to just intuitively know what to do.  And there was a strong undertone that efforts to discuss it would be considered off topic and derailing the thread. 

 

It wasn’t so bad seeing the insults in text.  It was gaming with people who were so angry and offended by others who meant no harm to them.  What other things was I doing incorrectly that somewhere players were screaming at me silently.  Focusing their hate toward me.

Insults and disrespect in the game should be screen shotted (F12) and reported via Tribunal. We do not tolerate disrespect towards other Captains here, with the exception of the Shakespearean insult generator. That you have been the victim of bad apples is bad enough, that you think that it's acceptable and you just have to put up with it is worse. Past that, most of us are pretty nice, and we're not screaming at you silently. Please don't paint the larger portion of the community with the actions of a few loudmouths (who need a gag).

I decided to confine myself to PVE and await the open world.  I felt just a little guilty for not contributing to the testing but no one had provided me with details of what we are testing that the kiters and storm quitters can cause the test to fail so significantly.  In the end I had no idea what to look for and the rules were so elusive that they cannot be documented.

So I was encouraged when I saw your post, the poll results and all of the comments that confirmed it was okay to flee when overwhelmed.  Perhaps there was hope.  Perhaps I would be welcome in PvP and the rage was with a minority.

This is a pretty early Alpha. Many of the "rules" are nothing more than player preference, and are not rules at all. Above, I mentioned that I personally thought that fleeing when a win was hopeless and you were outnumbered is boorish. I still believe it is, however, the post I quoted from Admin proves that the rules are whatever you can get away with (with the exception of farming damage - that is to have a large ship choose to fail to defend itself and allow enemy ships to farm damage off of it) are enforced by game mechanics - the circle prevents the griefers that liked to simply point their ship in a direction, set full sails, and then go out for a pint with their mates. If you're running away but staying inside that circle, well, you're in the clear as far as admin is currently concerned. Many folks like to watch the end of the match and then spend a few minutes in general chat congratulating friends and foes on well executed maneuvers, or shots, generally doing a post mortem. Those players can get frustrated when, in a system where the only thing you really need to advance is damage, with wins and losses not having any meaning, someone decides to drag a match out simply to avoid "dying". It's a little like when a player is losing a soccer match, and he takes every opportunity to kick the ball as far as possible out of bounds to force the other team to go get it. He's not doing his team any good by doing so, and he's certainly not making the match more fun for the participants. I'm in no way saying that running around inside the circle to avoid dying isn't allowed, or that I think people that do that are bad or evil, it just disappoints me on a personal level - but it's not your job to prevent my disappointment.

Then I read Sin Khan and I was elated.  Such a way with words.  He explained exactly how I felt except that I had not intended to insult anyone.  I do not want to be rude and I wish to game in a manner that is not considered poor mannered or unsportsmanlike.  But sacrificing myself and my ship (to appease others who want rapid closure at their terms) just seems so gamey.  But that is because I do not understand how the testing will fail if I do not push on into a fight that will destroy me.

The testing is designed to gather large amounts of data that can then be crunched statistically to adjust gameplay. I'll give you an hypothetical example. Matches are supposed to last no more than one hour. Preferably, the "normal" match should conclude some time before that, to allow for matches that are particularly competitive not to run into the end of the timer. When you have a number of people that have no chance running around making life difficult for the other team, you artificially extend the amount of time the match took to complete. This can cause the data to skew, leading the developers to make bad decisions about how much damage ships put out, how fast they should go, and how maneuverable they are, so that they can meet their match time goal. When there is no negative to losing your ship, some folks have a difficult time understanding why they need to chase you down for half an hour when the rest of your team is dead. That said, see my comments in the previous paragraph about game mechanics.

At least 2 of the moderators seem to feel that discussions on this matter are not productive to I sincerely hope this post will not be interpreted as instigating discontent.

I'm not sure what you're referencing here. Your post is constructive and respectful, and pretty much on topic. I don't see why you would be concerned about being accused of instigating.

Thanks to Mr. Darby for his efforts on 10 Mar 2015 by highlighting the admin comments from 28 Nov 2104.  This sheds some light on the competitive game play.  But I am still at a loss as to how to make the leap from that admin guidance to “That does not include running away the whole match without trying to engage. “  I state this not to receive a stern retort but only to explain that this point is not as clear to those of us who are still learning it.  Surely you must understand we were not born with this knowledge and please accept that I mean no disrespect.

I would hope you wouldn't think I'd give you a stern retort. I'm rather direct in my language at times, but I usually save my ire for folks that are causing trouble (or who have camped athwart my hawse). I welcome newer players posting in General Discussion about aspects of gameplay which are confusing them or giving them trouble. The Developers need to know how newer players are doing so that they can adjust the UI and gameplay to be less confusing where possible. PLEASE post your questions and allow great players like Captain Doran, Dr. Maturin, Prater, etc. to help you out. We want you to succeed!

Here's a little elaboration on what I meant. If you spent the entire match without firing more than a broadside or two, avoiding trouble and staying out of range, I'd personally like to see you a little more aggressive. I've posted before - if you're in a smaller ship than the norm, stay out from between the bigger ships and their enemies, and in fact stay near the bigger ship, on the far side from the enemy, just a bit behind them (watch out for them turning). Be patient, and soon enough you'll close to where you can hold that position and add your damage to theirs, and since they're occupying that bigger ship with their threat, you can remain relatively undamaged. Get in and fight your ship! Don't do so by yourself where the enemy can swat you like a fly, but watch for that opportunity to engage a ship that is occupied with a larger friendly and you'll be amazed at how helpful you can be.

It still seems to me that some players are trying to force their unwritten gameplay rules on others so they can enjoy their own sense of satisfaction in a win. 

 

So I suppose I will stay away from PvP and hope that issue dissolves in the open world.

You'll do yourself a HUGE disservice if you don't PvP now, while the stakes are nonexistent. Right now, you can sail in, make a mistake, get absolutely murdered, and say to yourself "well Henry, that was bloody stupid of you, next time, zig instead of zag", exit the match, pick the same ship you were just in, and go again. No repair costs, no loss of ship, no having to find/build a new one, you're good to go. The bots act nothing like players, and if you're not ready to run into the likes of Prater or Mr. Doran when you hit the Open World, you're going to find yourself in a rowboat quite often. Get into PvP, fight your ship, ignore the jerks, listen to the folks that are genuinely trying to help, and learn! I guarantee if you report offensive behavior (with that F12 screen shot), and listen to the guys that are good at this stuff (and I'm NOT one of them, I get eaten for lunch regularly), you're going to be way ahead of the newer folks that are just joining. If you confine yourself to PvE, you'll be disappointed when Open World really gets going.

PLEASE - feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns you have. I'll help you in any way possible because I want you to have fun and succeed.

[Saintduiex]

The game functions as it functions. Kiting is what it is right now, so use it or don't use it. It will be changed or it won't. You can have your opinons, but as someone quoted from Admin earlier, if there is an etiquette, it is enforced by design. That is the word from GL and everyones opinion about current mechanics are only that, just their opinion. No?

Kiting will be changed when it is. Or it won't.

Stay tuned and chill out if you can't catch someone and they are "beating" you with kiting. If you are that good you will find a way to easily defeat that in open world and if not, well, perhaps GL will change it for you. But for now this is Sea Trials testing.

Drinks are on SLVF tonight

[Grim DeGrim]

The game functions as it functions.... if there is an etiquette, it is enforced by design.

 

...

Drinks are on SLVF tonight

 

If only it were all so clear. 

 

Does game design address the Code of Conduct as proposed by AUSL?

 

No, not really.  These are player desired behaviors, and some as required by GL, for the community we currently game in.  But certainly not enforced by mechanics.  This is a heavy shade of grey, the topic of kiting with zero hope of winning the match.  But no one is disagreeing about the legitimacy of kiting alone as "wrong" in deathmatch.  The debate is more with respect to "etiquette", and that is something far more subjective (a reality that I accept).  We all want for the good of the game and the community.

 

I agree, drinks on SLVF...

[AwkwardDavies]

Point #1 - no on supports this person's response, regardless of the scenario.

Point #2 - This is kiting.  No statement as to right or wrong, but this is the name for this strategy that has been assigned by the community.

Point #3 - Establishes that prolonging the match served no testing purpose from an alpha perspective.  Mr Awkward was clearly destined to lose this match.

 

Inquiry #1 - Is it "wrong" to continue to fight under these circumstances.  Agreed 100%, that "No" it is not wrong.  I question the manner in which a person might choose to fight on, but we'll address that in #2.  Remember - Mr Awkward has clearly stated that there was no hope of winning.

 

Inquiry #2 - What is the etiquette under these circumstances? (this very specific, situationally defined scenario where it is 100% established that the loss is inevitable)  Prolonging the match , in my opinion, is very poor etiquette.  I do not propose he drop sails and "just quits".  I propose he chooses a more "noble" death by fighting at close range, testing himself on how long he can prolong the battle at close range.  How many additional broadsides can he get off.  This is done as a courtesy to everyone that has fought valiantly that deathmatch, but only had the misfortune of sinking earlier.  If the match was close, or victory in question, I whole heartedly support his endeavors to kite as a means to swing the tides of battle, regardless of the additional time it takes.

 

Supplemental:  Take them as you will.  While I know Mr Awkward is not intending to be purposely antagonistic, I'll draw you to the 2nd one.  "Making them WORK for it gives me pleasure".  THIS is why players take this strategy to heart and why I consider it poor etiquette.  The match is lost (as established, there is 100% no chance of victory).  Prolonging the match is very often antagonistic on the part of the final "loser" - I do not use that word as a derogatory term.  Instead it helps add perspective on why some people would employ such tactics late in a match. "If I'm going to lose, I'm going to make it painful as prolonged as possible for you as the victor" [some might even add:  to make you work for it].  This has no place in alpha testing.  You've clearly lost the match, face it nobly and respect your fellow testers.

 

For the record, I believe Mr AwkwardDavies to be a fine gentleman and make no allegation here, implied or otherwise.  Instead, I try to provide insight on why I personally frown on this situational activity.

 

This topic allows some very "awkward" discussion on a charged topic.

 

While not a court case....I rest my case

Grim, 

 

Thank you for a very erudite response. I appreciated every one of your points, even the few that I could not entirely support. 

 

Point 1 - Thank you. 

 

Point 2 - I'm actually happy to know that this is a known issue, and that clarification was in order. I feel the better for having raised it.

 

Point 3 - I suppose that could be true, though my previous comment related to the Dev's understanding play style in order to set up programmatic limitation where needed is also valid. 

 

Inquiry 2 (also Supplemental)  - Is it not a valid point that forcing the enemy to understand and respond to difficulties is also part of the testing? I don't say that - was the term 'griefiing'? - is a good, but that causing other players to have to do their best to get the win; most especially now, when it matters little, is a defensible act?

 

Again, thank you for your insightful comments,

[AwkwardDavies]

...  It was gaming with people who were so angry and offended by others who meant no harm to them...

 

Sadly, this is part of 'net life these days. I play WoT far less often now for that very reason. I'm hopeful that it will not happen here to the same extent. 

 

 

...Perhaps I would be welcome in PvP...

 

You would be welcome on my PVP team any time you choose to attend. 

 

...Then I read Sin Khan and I was elated.  Such a way with words... 

 

I agree, he expressed some of my thoughts far more clearly that had I. 

 

...At least 2 of the moderators seem to feel that discussions on this matter are not productive to I sincerely hope this post will not be interpreted as instigating discontent...

 

I have received no disapprobation from the PTB (PowersThatBe) for starting this hare a'running

 

...Thanks to Mr. Darby...

 

And my repeated thanks as well. 

 

...It still seems to me that some players are trying to force their unwritten gameplay rules on others...

 

I believe you're right. That is why I think this discussion holds value. 

 

So I suppose I will stay away from PvP and hope that issue dissolves in the open world.

 

I really hope you reconsider. PVP is the best gameplay, and the best way for the Dev's to see how to adjust the final product. As I said, I would be most happy to play, with or against you, in any PVP. 

 

Thanks again Mr. Awkward for starting this thread.  It been very helpful, offered brief relief and rekindled hope for the open world\

 

I'm glad this thread served a purpose. And I would very much like to extend that hope. I honestly think that these growing pains are a GoodThing and will only add to the ultimate goal of all players of good conscience. A fine, fun, playable game. 

[Grim DeGrim]

The mere fact that inquire on Etiquette tells me you care about player relationships in game.

I'm guilty in a real life context. I have my own quirky Etiquette that often runs afoul with accepted convention - and my wife is always after me.

Sometimes we go through a drive through and we buy coffee. The attendant takes the order and I pull through to the pickup. My wife is incensed: "Daniel, you didn't say [the words] thank you". She considered this impolite and to be poor Etiquette. [this has nothing to do with tipping, for clarification]

Am I wrong for not saying thank you? That is that person's job. "Thank you sir for doing your job". Unless exceptional service, it often feels awkward to me.

But I will not deny that etiquette would suggest what the polite and respectful thing to do is...

We all make choices with respect to how we choose to act in specific scenarios. Often there is no right or wrong. But how I conduct myself will determine the response from my peers.

If that coffee attendant learns my voice, maybe they give poor service (or worse) because they think I'm being rude.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[AwkwardDavies]

Sometimes we go through a drive through and we buy coffee. The attendant takes the order and I pull through to the pickup. My wife is incensed: "Daniel, you didn't say thank you". She considered this impolite and to be poor Etiquette.

Am I wrong for not saying thank you? That is that person's job. "Thank you sir for doing your job". Unless exceptional service, it often feels awkward to me.

 

I find it so easy to relate!  When I was young (and oh, so very foolish) I did not think 'tipping' servers was warranted. Until, that is, I found out that not only was it an expected part of their income, but they are taxed on EXPECTED TIPS. The IRS (The 's' not standing for 'service' as they content, but something far more aromatic) has decided that all waitpersons are liars and so will be taxed on what the IRS considers 'fair' tips.  Since then I have always over-tipped for good service. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by AwkwardDavies

[Grim DeGrim]

Aye, having worked in that industry, I tend to over tip as well.

Edit: to clarify, it is the lack of "words" used to express thank you. Unless I'm super wrong, it is not customary to tip at the Tim Horton's drive through in Canada... These employees are not taxed for expected Gratuity.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Manne af Orust]

Never give up

[Grim DeGrim]

Never give up

That's the face I make when I load double shot to teach them my final lesson.

[Guthwait]

Never give up