>>>Beta v1.1 Feedback<<< [RC 6]

[PainKiller]

I have started to write 4 posts about how furius it made it to see how we are solving problems, and i'm forced to delete it so i don't say anything desrespectful.....better be speechless.

Let's just say what google says about caracteristics of a drunken man, which represents behaviour of ships : 

• Balance. unsteady on feet, staggering and swaying
• Impaired coordination and motor skills
• sense of confusion
• difficulty walking straight
• unsteady on feet

Enough said. Everything else would be just how sad and dissapointed i am right now.

[Knobby]

Rereading my own post made me realize how angry I am atm, so I want to start by saying that I really do appreciate the hard work the devs have put in during what for most other people is the holiday season, and that in a country that is actively being invaded. Really I want to see this game succeed. I've been heavily invested in it (emotionally even) since back when it wasn't even on steam and all we had was academy missions and custom battles. But seeing mention of a release candidate fills me with dread, considering the actual state of the game.

It has taken 10 hotfixes to get the game to a state where testing is even possible, fixing the multiple literal game breaking bugs. This is not hyperbole, these bugs made it impossible playtest as the game would not load, or it would crash, or buttons would not work. The actual framework of the game was not working, and it is just barely working now after 10 hotfixes so we can finally start looking at stuff like the new features and balance etc.

Multiple features are still in their brand new state, and clearly not working correctly or not optimized or balanced well.  Part of the problem is the black box nature of these features where testing is impossible when the tester does not know how something is supposed to work. Another big part of the frustration and basic lack of enjoyment is how most of these new features are completely out of the players control, or even influence.

And then there are replies like this:

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

[...]

Manual rudder is going to be removed. We noticed that a large number of players misuse this function or overuse it, creating multiple problems in the movement of ships. 

Drunken? What eventually is this new forum term? If someone can elaborate? There have been many improvements compared to the previous version of the game so such feedback cannot help us at all.

You have got to be kidding me. Have the devs themselves not played a single battle since 1.10? You must not have if you don't know what we mean by drunken helmsmen. I will not explain here but just assume you have read the explanation posted a few posts before mine and the excellent analysis by @Aurora just below. 

Nearly every hotfix patchnotes since 1.10 dropped have mentioned 'improvements' to this issue yet we as playtesters see no improvement at all. Sometimes things actually got worse. This seriously make me doubt devs ever play an actual battle.

But threatening to remove the one feature that makes battles halfway playable is just so classic Game Labs and makes me so angry. Accusing players of abusing a feature of the game to actually be able to play it? Are you for real!?!? 

I have to stop typing now. I've tried to keep this civil and constructive, but I just can't anymore...

Edited January 3, 2023 by Knobby

[Aurora]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Manual rudder is going to be removed. We noticed that a large number of players misuse this function or overuse it, creating multiple problems in the movement of ships. 

Drunken? What eventually is this new forum term? If someone can elaborate? There have been many improvements compared to the previous version of the game so such feedback cannot help us at all.

I don't get what's the issue with manual rudder, being able to set a continuous turn is a very important feature. The only alternative is continuing to switch between ships to tell them to turn. How else can i make small continuous turns that don't kill my accuracy?

On the topic of what is meant by "drunken" movement i'm going to link you my previous post where the issue is highlighted with pictures.

To summarize:

whenever you tell a ship to turn it will overshoot the intended heading and then it will overshoot again (by a smaller amount) when it tries to correct its trajectory. This behavior continues for a while and is especially an issue on bigger ships.

A small graph to display what it's meant by this:

It's called "drunken" because it reminds people of a drunk person driving and swerving around instead of going straight as they should. 

Also, you can simply boot up the game, build a random cruiser in a custom battle and tell it to turn by 45° once it's up to speed. You'll see the issue easily.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Aurora

[Lima]

5 minutes ago, Knobby said:

 But seeing mention of a release candidate fills me with dread, considering the actual state of the game.

Thanks. This is the best thing that can convey my feelings without bad words. Fear. I want this game to be successful. As one youtuber who has now left us said, this game represents a potentially the perfect game for me.

However, as with many other games, I get the feeling that the developers are not playing their own game. It's been very difficult to enjoy the game lately. I'm not just talking about incredibly annoying old bugs,I'm talking about the fact that there are huge problems with balance.

I'm talking about what it is like to land on an island when you need to get close to the port, and the enemy uses mines and free simmortal submarines.

I'm talking about the fact that the ship control changes in the current version have nothing at all to do with how it works IRL.

These are just two problems, and there are dozens of them, old and new. I fondly recall the first versions of the campaign.

I want to play the release version 1.1, but I understand that I won't be able to play for a long time. All these old bugs with TF, the terrible balance of submarines/mines, a lot of new bugs - I just can't stand it. Although there is a "bright" spot - after 10-15 years in the campaign, half of the countries disintegrate, and for the most part the campaign can be considered finished.

[Kevin Alexander]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Do you have shared designs used? Can you disable the shared designs and create a new campaign.

By the 

Manual rudder is going to be removed. We noticed that a large number of players misuse this function or overuse it, creating multiple problems in the movement of ships. 

Drunken? What eventually is this new forum term? If someone can elaborate? There have been many improvements compared to the previous version of the game so such feedback cannot help us at all.

Are you for real?

I have to ask this because I cannot believe what I just read in your reply.

WHY would you remove the manual rudder? The issue I am describing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the manual rudder and everything to do with whatever ship sailing behaviour you introduced in version 1.09. Why do we have to pretend you don't understand the issue when it was clearly explained SO MANY TIMES?

I attached a crudely drawn picture to exemplify what I am talking about. Why do ships sail like this even when I don't give any direction? Like, battle starts, I let my fleet sail straight ahead and they start doing ,,S" maneuvers.

This is especially frustrating when trying to evade torpedoes or when maneuvering around an enemy fleet because half the ships are always too close to the enemy and get mowed down by main battery fire or by torpedos.

 

And your response to this problem is to remove features that have absolutely nothing to do with this? I barely use manual rudder anyways.

But at this point I don't even know why I still care, I see that for all the discussion in this thread about the ship behaviour the issue is still there. Just revert the cruising behaviours to version 1.08 and the problem is fixed, for real.

 

I cannot believe that for the money I spent on this game this is the reply I am getting. I must say that at this point I am seriously starting to regret my purchase.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Kevin Alexander
grammar

[GronusCZ]

The game repeatedly gets stuck on ship building.
Reloading from the menu doesn't help.
The game always gets stuck on the same date.

[kjg000]

The Dev's seem to be more interested in dogma than realism. Navies spend a great deal of time and money training officers and crew to avoid the "drunken sailor" effect mentioned in this forum and any officer qualified to be on a ship at sea, who allowed this type of behavior, would be dismissed.

They also seem to be continually blaming players for our attempts to make the game playable, and enjoyable, by compensating for poorly developed  features.

it has been a couple of months since I last visited this forum and while the game has many new features it seems to be less playable than ever as old problems are largely ignored and new features bring more problems, and frustrations, than benefits.

Everyone here wants this game to succeed, I would hope that everyone here is aware of the difficulties many of the Dev's face and wish them success and everyone here realizes this is an early access game. However "blaming the messenger" is not going to improve the game and punishing players for not playing as the Dev's intended will just result in a poorer, less popular game.

[Zuikaku]

I'm against removing manual helm control. I also propose new helm damage types like jammed helm, blown of helm and screw damage. We do not see ships going in circles when helm is damaged. The inly effect is ship being somewhat sluggish in course change.

[Gangut]

One thing I've noticed compared to the previous version of the campaign (pre October varient) is that after 10 years from the 1890 start it becomes unstable and sluggish. This is exacerbated by the fact I'm always at war with someone, and in some cases practically everyone is at war, thus making the game very sluggish every time I the "next month" button. I think one of the major issues is that too much is going on at the same time compared to the last version, and for one reason or another, the ai just desends into an eternal royal rumble, which makes all of the issues worse as the game never gets time to 'settle' as it does in the early game.

[Knobby]

Yes, one of the many balance fixes that has been sorely needed since adding the additional major nations: Nations already at war, sometimes with multiple opponents, should try everything to avoid more enemies! Not continue badgering me with tension increases and money demands. Just so there is actually a way for that war to end, and also because fighting an opponent with hardly any fleet left and dispersed around the globe is not fun, and actually pretty hard to bring to a conclusion. And with everybody fighting everybody the game indeed slows to a crawl.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Knobby

[Urst]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Do you have shared designs used? Can you disable the shared designs and create a new campaign.

By the 

Manual rudder is going to be removed. We noticed that a large number of players misuse this function or overuse it, creating multiple problems in the movement of ships. 

Drunken? What eventually is this new forum term? If someone can elaborate? There have been many improvements compared to the previous version of the game so such feedback cannot help us at all.

>removing manual rudder
The manual rudder is the only way to be able to do anything because of how bad the AI for the ships' helmsmen are.

[Kevin Alexander]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Do you have shared designs used? Can you disable the shared designs and create a new campaign.

By the 

Manual rudder is going to be removed. We noticed that a large number of players misuse this function or overuse it, creating multiple problems in the movement of ships. 

Drunken? What eventually is this new forum term? If someone can elaborate? There have been many improvements compared to the previous version of the game so such feedback cannot help us at all.

Thank you for making me regret my purchase of this game. Totally professional response.

Waste of my money.

[admiralsnackbar]

57 minutes ago, Aurora said:

I don't get what's the issue with manual rudder, being able to set a continuous turn is a very important feature. The only alternative is continuing to switch between ships to tell them to turn. How else can i make small continuous turns that don't kill my accuracy?

On the topic of what is meant by "drunken" movement i'm going to link you my previous post where the issue is highlighted with pictures.

To summarize:

whenever you tell a ship to turn it will overshoot the intended heading and then it will overshoot again (by a smaller amount) when it tries to correct its trajectory. This behavior continues for a while and is especially an issue on bigger ships.

A small graph to display what it's meant by this:

It's called "drunken" because it reminds people of a drunk person driving and swerving around instead of going straight as they should. 

Also, you can simply boot up the game, build a random cruiser in a custom battle and tell it to turn by 45° once it's up to speed. You'll see the issue easily.

I'm wondering, even if the ship had its rudder aimed forwards by the time the ship was headed in the right direction, would the stern continue drifting [in this case] to the left of the desired turning direction? (i mean both IRL and in-game, and if so how much)

There's the student driver analogy where the student is making a 90 degree turn to the right and doesn't turn the wheel back to 'straight' properly so that the car still wants to keep turning after 90 degrees. 

Then there's the analogy of a normal person performing an otherwise correct turn but on an icy road. Then [potentially] the rear of the vehicle is dragged to the left. 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by admiralsnackbar

[Nick Thomadis]

40 minutes ago, Kevin Alexander said:

Are you for real?

I have to ask this because I cannot believe what I just read in your reply.

WHY would you remove the manual rudder? The issue I am describing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the manual rudder and everything to do with whatever ship sailing behaviour you introduced in version 1.09. Why do we have to pretend you don't understand the issue when it was clearly explained SO MANY TIMES?

I attached a crudely drawn picture to exemplify what I am talking about. Why do ships sail like this even when I don't give any direction? Like, battle starts, I let my fleet sail straight ahead and they start doing ,,S" maneuvers.

This is especially frustrating when trying to evade torpedoes or when maneuvering around an enemy fleet because half the ships are always too close to the enemy and get mowed down by main battery fire or by torpedos.

 

And your response to this problem is to remove features that have absolutely nothing to do with this? I barely use manual rudder anyways.

But at this point I don't even know why I still care, I see that for all the discussion in this thread about the ship behaviour the issue is still there. Just revert the cruising behaviours to version 1.08 and the problem is fixed, for real.

 

I cannot believe that for the money I spent on this game this is the reply I am getting. I must say that at this point I am seriously starting to regret my purchase.

 

You can check the previous version 1.09.3 in fast moving ships that the movement line has the exact same behavior, following the ship's motion. It is though updating a little differently and faster showing more evidently a previous "problem", not a new one. So all this recent overdramatization, which is usual during beta periods, just slows us down from focusing into real problems that thankfully a lot of players are helping us to solve, in a good manner.

[Spitfire_97]

2 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Manual rudder is going to be removed

Petty spite will not make your game better Nick. Manual rudder is the only way many of us can play. Remove it and we simply won't

[Kevin Alexander]

1 minute ago, Nick Thomadis said:

You can check the previous version 1.09.3 in fast moving ships that the movement line has the exact same behavior, following the ship's motion. It is though updating a little differently and faster showing more evidently a previous "problem", not a new one. So all this recent overdramatization, which is usual during beta periods, just slows us down from focusing into real problems that thankfully a lot of players are helping us to solve, in a good manner.

I don't even know why I bothered to explain the issue then, seeing that you choose to oversimplify my explanation and take it out of context.

 

1.08 cruising behaviour good, 1.09 and 1.10 cruising behaviour bad. There. 

 

And for the money I spent I have all the right, like everyone else, to complain about a "feature" that brings more problems thant good things.

[Nick Thomadis]

30 minutes ago, Zuikaku said:

I'm against removing manual helm control. I also propose new helm damage types like jammed helm, blown of helm and screw damage. We do not see ships going in circles when helm is damaged. The inly effect is ship being somewhat sluggish in course change.

We cannot add more features to support manual rudder in order to fix its potential bugs. For example, a few players use it and order their ships to join a formation or screen or do something else, but manual rudder controls are preserved and so ships spin, and chaos happens. Do players want better formations? Then we have to cut features that do not contribute on this.

[Spitfire_97]

1 minute ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Do players want better formations? Then we have to cut features that do not contribute on this.

Yes please

[Kevin Alexander]

1 minute ago, Nick Thomadis said:

We cannot add more features to support manual rudder in order to fix its potential bugs. For example, a few players use it and order their ships to join a formation or screen or do something else, but manual rudder controls are preserved and so ships spin, and chaos happens. Do players want better formations? Then we have to cut features that do not contribute on this.

Incredible.

[PoB]

5 hours ago, The PC Collector said:

I think it has already been reported, but I'm having to Alt-F4 like every 4-5 turns due to the "yes" button on dialogs bugging out and being non responsive. Bugs like this one are the reason why I say that the update is not even remotely close to be ready for RC stage.

Edit: Now the "move" button is also becoming irresponsive lots of times, forcing me to restart the game to move my fleets.

This has been by far my biggest struggle. Used to have the hang ups on submarine auto resolve but since trying out 1.1 it's every couple rounds where a menu option dies. And it's almost always the "affrmative" option. I can't click "yes" to produce a ship for a minor ally, I can't click "yes" to save, I can't click "yes" to exit, etc. 

I do notice the save file is getting downright massive so wonder if there' some issues just reading/writing to that. I'm far, far, far.....so far from a programmer so that's just spit balling. 

Despite all the numerous problems I still log a ton of time in this game but I do worry it may not live up to it's potential. When everything is working it can be fantastic. I love those moments where you've finally pushed past a tech wall and your first dreadnought or battlecruiser without horribly gimped engines rolls off the production line and you can finally go steam roll over the death blob or British ships sitting on your border. I do feel it's somehow getting further from those moments though. I adore the idea of a big open world with the minor nations and all the other things at play....but not at the expense of the core gameplay. The fun fleet actions that I enjoyed so much have been replaced by aimlessly trying to hunt down a 22kn light cruiser running away from me in my 22.2kn light cruiser with the game at 10x for infinite or until one ship finally runs out of fuel. Then promptly needing to end task when I can't get out of the next battle prompt. 

I'm not, personally, mad about this. I'm playing a beta release of an early access game. But it is a downer at times. This became my "I've got an hour to kill" game this year and being able to fire up, maybe design a new ship, play a few turns was great. I feel like I spend half that time now just trying to make it trough a single turn cycle.

 

Anyways, first post here....Devs, you have a great game here with so much potential. Hopefully understand I think people just want to see it reach it. Regardless I've put hundreds and hundreds of hours into the game so I've already more than got my money's worth.

 

[Lima]

Court martial. This is waiting for the one who allowed the drunken behavior of ships in battle. There are a huge number of videos on the web where the US Navy performs evasive maneuvers. You can see how it works there. On ships of past eras it was more difficult, but serious crew training saved there.

[Aurora]

Since i think videos can explain the issue a lot better, i recorder a battleship turning in 1.10 beta and a similar BB turning in the live version:

 

 

So yeah this is the problem i've been seeing since the start of 1.10 beta.

There are also issues with formation keeping (like distance setting being mostly ignored) but i've seen improvements with those, even though 1.8 was better in that regard.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Aurora

[Suribachi]

Aurora 's post above certainly does inhabit the phrase "A picture is worth a thousand words... [and a video is worth even more]" on this issue.  Certainly more than the gif of the car I posted earlier lol!

 

33 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said:

You can check the previous version 1.09.3 in fast moving ships that the movement line has the exact same behavior, following the ship's motion. It is though updating a little differently and faster showing more evidently a previous "problem", not a new one.

Ok, this is progress!  Now it just needs to be found what in the 1.10 code caused this issue that only occurred at very high speeds to become common at all speeds.

[Kothra]

9 minutes ago, Aurora said:

Since i think videos can explain the issue a lot better, i recorder a battleship turning in 1.10 beta and a similar BB turning in the live version:

[removed to save space]

So yeah this is the problem i've been seeing since the start of 1.10 beta.

There are also issues with formation keeping (like distance setting being mostly ignored) but i've seen improvements with those, even though 1.8 was better in that regard.

Can confirm this is the same difference in behavior I have seen since installing 1.10 beta.

[Zuikaku]

29 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said:

We cannot add more features to support manual rudder in order to fix its potential bugs. For example, a few players use it and order their ships to join a formation or screen or do something else, but manual rudder controls are preserved and so ships spin, and chaos happens. Do players want better formations? Then we have to cut features that do not contribute on this.

Isn't the manual rudder control something like formation control override? When you use it it basically cancell formation orders? 

Manual rudder is great for us who want to micromanage everything and take over when avoiding torpedoes. It's a fun minigame within the game.