PainKiller Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 I have recreated an 1930 costum battle where my ship has 200mm and 50mm guns, trying to show off how ineffective the 200mm guns while the 50s are active and made a report. I can't have a conversation through the bug report, so if you need me to do something, show something, make different gun combinations, please, let me know Nick (or any other devs who are working on bugs) I belive earlier you sad that 50mm guns cause splashes and that's what causes the issue, which would be completly fine, but i belive 3x2 small lonely tiny 50mm guns shouldn't cause 1 minute wait time on a 200mm gun that reloads almost every 12sec. Not only that, but had 3 turret on that design, and only 1 turret would fire....every minute or so approximately, from like 3-4km away, with 100% accuracy, set to agressive, as you suggested. I'm serious, feel free to correct me. I'm not going to keep reporting this as bug if this is truly intented. I would like to know how to be helpful. Please. I don't even know if this bug happens in your game, as you said earlier that you are unable to recreate the situation. Again, this 50mm - 200mm guns is just ONE combination, there are others which does something similar patterns. And looking at the enemy ships in campaign, this also affects them. Their main guns having problems fireing. ( I don't know how bug report work, can someone enlighten me? Do they just see the printscreen picture and our written message? Or can they actually play the game and see what is happening from the moment we created the bug report? the latter one would be better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 Regarding the so called "Drunken movement" it is just a visual representation of the movement path estimation which utilizes ship's velocity. The ship's velocity is not static but pulsates because of waves (there is calculation involved) so the estimated path changes accordingly with oscillation. Ships will steer straight whatsoever if the ship is not steering too much. In reality do ships straight in absolute straight lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, PainKiller said: I have recreated an 1930 costum battle where my ship has 200mm and 50mm guns, trying to show off how ineffective the 200mm guns while the 50s are active and made a report. I can't have a conversation through the bug report, so if you need me to do something, show something, make different gun combinations, please, let me know Nick (or any other devs who are working on bugs) I belive earlier you sad that 50mm guns cause splashes and that's what causes the issue, which would be completly fine, but i belive 3x2 small lonely tiny 50mm guns shouldn't cause 1 minute wait time on a 200mm gun that reloads almost every 12sec. Not only that, but had 3 turret on that design, and only 1 turret would fire....every minute or so approximately, from like 3-4km away, with 100% accuracy, set to agressive, as you suggested. I'm serious, feel free to correct me. I'm not going to keep reporting this as bug if this is truly intented. I would like to know how to be helpful. Please. I don't even know if this bug happens in your game, as you said earlier that you are unable to recreate the situation. Again, this 50mm - 200mm guns is just ONE combination, there are others which does something similar patterns. And looking at the enemy ships in campaign, this also affects them. Their main guns having problems fireing. ( I don't know how bug report work, can someone enlighten me? Do they just see the printscreen picture and our written message? Or can they actually play the game and see what is happening from the moment we created the bug report? the latter one would be better) We are aware of the target reset problems as we wrote in the changelog and we will fix them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 37 minutes ago, Lima said: War, war never changes There will be no advance if the attacker does not cause enough losses to the defender on a turn so this can happen. However in your last example Ethiopia should have been pushed back. We will check. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PainKiller Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: We are aware of the target reset problems as we wrote in the changelog and we will fix them. I'm sorry, i thought the target reset meant, that when there are multiple enemy ships, the guns keep changing their target too frequently, which was introduced in v1.1 as i expreienced. What i'm reporting is complety different, and has been in the game since v1.06 or 1.07, not exactly sure. If we do talk about the same problem, then I'm glad you are working on that. Sorry for bothering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) I just had the speed of my ships lock up again and it seems what fixes this is going to uncompressed time. Edit: Nevermind... that wasn't it either. Seems it just disappears by itself after some time, regardless of what I do... or not. 😕 Edited December 28, 2022 by Norbert Sattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: Regarding the so called "Drunken movement" it is just a visual representation of the movement path estimation which utilizes ship's velocity. The ship's velocity is not static but pulsates because of waves (there is calculation involved) so the estimated path changes accordingly with oscillation. Ships will steer straight whatsoever if the ship is not steering too much. In reality do ships straight in absolute straight lines? It is not just the line that goes like a snake. The ships themselves do too. They turn further than they need to change course, then over-correct and need a couple of back and forth corrections before they get back to driving in a straight line. Here's a screenshot of what happened when I gave my ship the order to turnto starport about 45°. As you can see it is now making a turn to port because they over-turned and need to correct. You can also see the S-like wake of my ship. Edited December 28, 2022 by Norbert Sattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Donuts Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 30 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: Regarding the so called "Drunken movement" it is just a visual representation of the movement path estimation which utilizes ship's velocity. The ship's velocity is not static but pulsates because of waves (there is calculation involved) so the estimated path changes accordingly with oscillation. Ships will steer straight whatsoever if the ship is not steering too much. In reality do ships straight in absolute straight lines? To quote Gregory Peck, "Whoever dreamed this one up should have their brain in a glass jar at Harvard." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lima Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 33 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: There will be no advance if the attacker does not cause enough losses to the defender on a turn so this can happen. However in your last example Ethiopia should have been pushed back. We will check. There was not a single successful offensive in the entire game. The "Advance" level never rises above zero. There were many such cases as with Ethiopia (Britain - Saudi Arabia, Germany-Poland, Austria-Serbia). I just took screenshots of what came to hand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZorinW Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, Lima said: There was not a single successful offensive in the entire game. The "Advance" level never rises above zero. There were many such cases as with Ethiopia (Britain - Saudi Arabia, Germany-Poland, Austria-Serbia). I just took screenshots of what came to hand. Yes, exactly. Not a single advance ever got past zero in my Hotfix 4 campaign. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Donuts Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, ZorinW said: Yes, exactly. Not a single advance ever got past zero in my Hotfix 4 campaign. In my case they did. It just takes time and depends greatly upon the numbers. Japan's 54 man invasion of Manchuria didn't go anywhere. Here I wondered how that constituted a Major Invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZorinW Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, Admiral Donuts said: In my case they did. It just takes time and depends greatly upon the numbers. Japan's 54 man invasion of Manchuria didn't go anywhere. Here I wondered how that constituted a Major Invasion. Yes, exactly. Just like all navies the armies don't have a clue when not to attack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neph Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 The ships' movement screams poorly tuned PID to me. The effect is worsened when ships are following one another--perturbations in the lead vessel(s) course amplify oscillations in the following vessels'. Currently, it's common to see behavior like this when commanding a turn in a line of vessels. It seems like this behavior is due to following ships trying to maintain a constant distance from their lead ships. It means that the second ship will begin to turn late, since the distance opens up only when the lead ship is in the maximum of its turn, and then because of ship handling characteristic the second ship will not be in the maximum of its turn until after the lead ship has settled into its new course. This causes a yet further delay for the course change of third & later following ships, meaning that the effect is exacerbated going down the line. It leads to a whip-lash effect and the third and later ships usually greatly overshoot, fall out of formation, and have to complete a long and slow 360° turn to return eventually to formation. It's almost impossible to keep ships in lines longer than 2, even through very very simple maneuvers. I propose than instead of each ship only looking at the distance from the one before it, an iterative process that amplifies perturbations and quickly leads to bad behavior in high-inertia/slowly-handling ships, we try a different method. Have behind the lead ship a "ghost division" of calculated ship positions--where ships should be if they followed perfectly (had perfect handling & no delay). Each ship instead will simply try to minimize their distance to the corresponding element of the ghost division. This should minimize whip-lash and keep ships in formation through simple turns. Thishttps://imgur.com/j4DueZB 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said: Regarding the so called "Drunken movement" it is just a visual representation of the movement path estimation which utilizes ship's velocity. The ship's velocity is not static but pulsates because of waves (there is calculation involved) so the estimated path changes accordingly with oscillation. Ships will steer straight whatsoever if the ship is not steering too much. In reality do ships straight in absolute straight lines? Nobody is talking about how "absolute straight lines" the ships had to be. But how they behave to the turning order. For example, if a ship is heading 030 and I ask it to turn 20 degrees to starboard in the last patch it'll slowly turn until its heading is 050. But right now it'll turn hard to starboard in an attempt to follow the exact line created then overshot the line and then turn to port oscillating over and over instead of simply "head to that direction". Which is a lot worse than useless and not in the slightest realistic. Edited December 28, 2022 by DableUTeeF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) This shouldn't be a problem in the first place since the data about turn radius and rudder shift rate already exist. You can just use that and stop the turn when the calculated momentum would bring the ship to the speficied direction. I shouldn't even be typing this since it used to work last patch. Edited December 28, 2022 by DableUTeeF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) We're not navigating these ships through minefield or narrow channel anyway. Accurately controling the heading is a lot more useful than threading the precise path if we can only select one. Edited December 28, 2022 by DableUTeeF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suribachi Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) I do not think I completely understand how the Naval Invasions are supposed to work. Playing as Japan, I have 2 fleets (4 BBs and 10 CLs, 7 BBs and 2 CLs) sitting so close to Davao in the Philippines that my ships are anchored close enough to hurl insults at the Spanish if they wanted to. Unfortunately, I cannot get these two fleets to combine like I used to be putting one on top of the other for some reason. I may have to move them all the way back to Naha then back again to combine them into a single fleet if it is mandatory for the over 100k tonnage to be recognized. Fleets are set to Invade. Combined tonnage of these two fleets is somewhere in the neighborhood of 157,000 t. Naval Invasion is not available under the Politics tab despite all of this. What is the tonnage requirement for the invasion fleet? Does it need to all be in one fleet? Do I need to be at war with the nation controlling the port in question? Are certain ship types needed to kick it off? Edited December 28, 2022 by Suribachi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PainKiller Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Suribachi said: What is the tonnage requirement for the invasion fleet? Does it need to all be in one fleet? Do I need to be at war with the nation controlling the port in question? Are certain ship types needed to kick it off? Yes you need to be at war with the nation you want to attack first. Then move ships sum 100.000t to the area. Thiese can be any kind of ships ( i have not tried with submarines though...) They don't have to be in one task force, they can be in multiple, just need to be close to each other / close to the area you want to invade. I don't belive you need to set their status to invade however, but to be sure, let set their status to invade. I always thought that taks force in invade status used to mean that it's more likely to attack merchant ships... Edited December 28, 2022 by PainKiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 minute ago, PainKiller said: Yes you need to be at war with the nation you want to attack first. Then move ships sum 100.000t to the area. Thiese can be any kind of ships ( i have not tried with submarines though...) They don't have to be in one task force, they can be in multiple, just need to be close to each other / close to the area you want to invade. I don't belive you need to set their status to invade however, but to be sure, let set their status to invade. I always thought that taks force in invade status used to mean that it's more likely to attack merchant ships... Like say, if I'm USA and want to invade Cuba I can just declare war on Spain and set 100,000 tons of fleet on Cuba and the "Naval Invasion" would show up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suribachi Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, PainKiller said: Yes you need to be at war with the nation you want to attack first. Well there goes my plan to Pearl Harbor my way into having oil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, PainKiller said: I have recreated an 1930 costum battle where my ship has 200mm and 50mm guns, trying to show off how ineffective the 200mm guns while the 50s are active and made a report. I can't have a conversation through the bug report, so if you need me to do something, show something, make different gun combinations, please, let me know Nick (or any other devs who are working on bugs) I belive earlier you sad that 50mm guns cause splashes and that's what causes the issue, which would be completly fine, but i belive 3x2 small lonely tiny 50mm guns shouldn't cause 1 minute wait time on a 200mm gun that reloads almost every 12sec. Not only that, but had 3 turret on that design, and only 1 turret would fire....every minute or so approximately, from like 3-4km away, with 100% accuracy, set to agressive, as you suggested. I'm serious, feel free to correct me. I'm not going to keep reporting this as bug if this is truly intented. I would like to know how to be helpful. Please. I don't even know if this bug happens in your game, as you said earlier that you are unable to recreate the situation. Again, this 50mm - 200mm guns is just ONE combination, there are others which does something similar patterns. And looking at the enemy ships in campaign, this also affects them. Their main guns having problems fireing. ( I don't know how bug report work, can someone enlighten me? Do they just see the printscreen picture and our written message? Or can they actually play the game and see what is happening from the moment we created the bug report? the latter one would be better) The problem is that, currently there's a limitation on rate of fire on a single ship. I think 2-3 rounds per second but not comfirmed. So if you have 3 tripple 50mm with rate of fire of 20 rounds per minute each. You have a grand total of 180 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per second already. So if the limit is also 3 rounds per second you'll never get to fire anything else since the firing priority for whatever reason is completely random. This has been an issue since forever but if it's really a limitation on the game's engine then the only thing we can do is use fewer but bigger secondary guns instead. Edited December 28, 2022 by DableUTeeF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PainKiller Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, DableUTeeF said: The problem is that, currently there's a limit of rate of fire on a ship. I think 2-3 rounds per second but not comfirmed wait...WHAT? wow. Since when? What is your source? I did not read this/ know about this. Fascinating. So, according to this, if i lower the amount of small gun, and also use the worst loading mechanics, i can go below this limit, and can make my bigger guns actually fire? Brb, need to test this hypotesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 minute ago, PainKiller said: wait...WHAT? wow. Since when? What is your source? I did not read this/ know about this. Fascinating. So, according to this, if i lower the amount of small gun, and also use the worst loading mechanics, i can go below this limit, and can make my bigger guns actually fire? Brb, need to test this hypotesis. It was there since the first time I play the game, around June this year. I also managed to dig some onversation but not convinced enough and decided to experimented myself. You can see this by using the biggest american battleship but putting as many tripple 9" (230mm?) turrets as you can (at least 7). Fit it with light shell and Auto II loader. And you'll find that some turret will naver fire because the other guns reload so fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suribachi Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 15 minutes ago, DableUTeeF said: The problem is that, currently there's a limit of rate of fire on a ship. I think 2-3 rounds per second but not confirmed. If true, this explains A LOT about main guns not firing until secondary guns are turned off. @Nick Thomadis can you confirm or deny this at all? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DableUTeeF Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Suribachi said: If true, this explains A LOT about main guns not firing until secondary guns are turned off. @Nick Thomadis can you confirm or deny this at all? I test it again with that but apparently now I can only have 7 turrets and the rate of fire of 21x9" mark 5 is not enough. But a lot of 2" still able to yield roughly the same result. Edited December 28, 2022 by DableUTeeF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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