Sea Trials

[Suppenkelle]

1 hour ago, Puchu said:

Because he gained more from that than what he would have, had he stayed and fought.

The fear of loosing said ship made him run. The enjoyment of the fight was not enough to overcome the fear of loss. So no content happened. Not for him, not for you. You lost and you are sad now. 

He won the price, but not the fight. he is happy now. He would be even more happy, had he fought and killed you. But the fear of loss drove him away from that.

Wouldn't it be great if the game was designed in such a way that he would stay and fight you even though he might loose the fight?

ummm, he was in a Loki ship. As you haven't been active for a while, do you know the rules of Lokis?

If you run and escape you do get exactly nothing.  You can't keep the ship. The Loki did not risk anything as it wasn't his ship at all. So, in what way would you redesign the game if people run that literally have nothing to loose instead of fighting what they came for?

 

[Schnapss]

Lets return to the topic. There must be some mechanic to test your ship with upgrades. 

There is no ingame info about your ship stats when you put some refits in it, like spanish or pirate.

Does the pirate refit has any effect on reuqin or trader lynx? What is my speed on inger with spanish refit?

Devs propose to gather this info myself because do not bother to implement correct ingame statistics. Why would I need to go on na-map to check speed stats of my ship? How can i be sure that an info on this site is correct?

Ok, I can put an upgrade , undock in my capital, tag some npc snow and try to gather all info. But wait, what if my nation have no capital? Do you propose to sail 30 min to find npc in empty see? Thank you very much, it is a distinction between complete product and alfa test.

What if I need to test my maneurability against particular ship? How can I do it? To sail in empty ow trying to find a player willing to fight? Ok, lets test with npc! But wait! I need to spend 30 min to find this npc and it is so ridiculously buffed that it makes no sense to try if I want to prepare for pvp, because this is a pvp game, isnt it?

[Henry Long Castle]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:41 AM, Puchu said:

Because he gained more from that than what he would have, had he stayed and fought.

The fear of loosing said ship made him run. The enjoyment of the fight was not enough to overcome the fear of loss. So no content happened. Not for him, not for you. You lost and you are sad now. 

He won the price, but not the fight. he is happy now. He would be even more happy, had he fought and killed you. But the fear of loss drove him away from that.

Wouldn't it be great if the game was designed in such a way that he would stay and fight you even though he might loose the fight?

That was a guy using a Loki rune... Thats the only reason I posted it... He had nothing to loose...

You were talking about the Loki rune when I answered to you with that picture, now you talk about a casual engagement in the OW with another player.  Make up your mind please.

[Puchu]

Sry, I made a mistake there. 

Here's what i would like to have said:

Loosing already hurts. Even when you dont loose anything in case of the Loki ship, there are some people for whom even that loss of pride is too much to handle. 

So how hard must it be for that player to loose a real ship in combat? Probably unbearable. 

That's why he doesn't fight. And doesnt provide fighting content to himself or to other players.

There are allways players on both edges of the extreme. Some will only fight if they for sure gain something out of ot. Some will fight even if they loose everything they have. Both are not people that you can design a successful game around. 

I would love the game to be rewarding for any real fight, no matter if you loose or win. How to implement that? I am not a dev. Many games do it in many different ways. But i dont think there are many successful multiplayer games out there that punish the player as hard for loosing as this one is. 

[Never]

On 6/12/2020 at 3:41 AM, Puchu said:

Because he gained more from that than what he would have, had he stayed and fought.

The fear of loosing said ship made him run. The enjoyment of the fight was not enough to overcome the fear of loss. So no content happened. Not for him, not for you. You lost and you are sad now. 

He won the price, but not the fight. he is happy now. He would be even more happy, had he fought and killed you. But the fear of loss drove him away from that.

Wouldn't it be great if the game was designed in such a way that he would stay and fight you even though he might loose the fight?

Not only does that not mean anything for Lokis. But people do get something from fighting rather than running in Patrol Zones and some still choose to run and lose a ship instead of fighting. 
I've had the thought of suggesting some system that should keep track of all damage done in PVP in all it's forms and provide points you can exchange for some exclusive items. But would that really keep people from running from a fight they think they will lose? It seems no matter what you do, as long it's even a remote possibility to escape, some players will always chose to run. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Never

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

1 hour ago, Puchu said:

So the game makes you work or pay for ships. 

And it makes it very easy for you to loose said ships that you worked hard for.

And then wonders why people are unhappy with losses. 

 

I am sure less people cry about loosing "free" dlc ships, than they cry about crafted golden ships. 

 

How toxic are loki players in global chat. Do they complain, flame, insult in global if they got sunk? I haven't seen that jet.

 

That leads us to the conclusion that the more people loose, the more they rant. 

 

You can change the behavior of humans by changing their environment. The most well thought person can become toxic if put in an unjust situation. And the most toxic person can be the nicest guy when put in he right environment. Banning chat is like putting makeup over skin cancer so people dont see it.

That´s all pretty reasonable. Yet you have a buy-contract for loki-runes running! The one tool where you cannot lose anything and the opponent a precious vessel and the fun with it.

[mikawa]

4 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

Yet you have a buy-contract for loki-runes running! The one tool where you cannot lose anything and the opponent a precious vessel and the fun with it.

Yes, true. Because of that, the loki rune is the most hated item ingame. Perhaps somebody should think about another use for this item. Maybe you can generate some fog around you in OW so you can "conjure it" to catch a trader or escape from chasers.

[Puchu]

3 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

That´s all pretty reasonable. Yet you have a buy-contract for loki-runes running! The one tool where you cannot lose anything and the opponent a precious vessel and the fun with it.

I have a Loki rune contract running because i can use it to get an immediate fight without waiting or sailing where i dont loose anything. That's exactly how i would like to play the game.

If i use the loki rune i gain immediate fun. If there is only pain to gain for the opposing side it's a flaw in the game mechanics.

The loki rune is only a problem for people who cant win vs a player even when they have all advantages in the world.

I loose 90% of my loki fights. For 4 reasons: 1. Bad tag, the opponent allways has the wind on me. 2. Predamage, I come to a fight when my ship is already at 50%hp or less 3. No repairs. 4. Overwealming enemies, usually i fight an uphill battle angainst bigger or more ships. 

I dont know how anyone can hate loki runes... well i actually do. It's the people who just want to farm AI and broadsidetrate it down by just having the bigger and better ship. Loki rune is not for people who dislike pvp. But then again ... they have their own server, dont they?

 

Dear Hethwill, 

I used to think like you, too. That the players can decide for themselves and it's a honorable point of view. It blames the decider for his decisions. And yes, I would aggree to that in the real world. But this is a game. People behave differently in games. Even in real life and in judging you can never separate the decision from the surrounding situation. People will allways decide based on the ruleset of the world around them. Same goes for games. Even more so, because in games the consequences of selfish actions are way less punished and social behavior is way less rewarded. It's the principles on which the game operates which promotes or demotes certain behavior. You cant blame people for exploiting the game. That's what games are all about. Try to get the maximum benefit out of it. Thats what people do in every game. Games have to put in surroundings that promote positive behavior towards the games goal. If the game wants as many people to fight as possible, it needs to put in mechanics which promote fighting. If the game wants people to sail around experiencing the emptyness, then it needs to put in mechanics which deter people from fighting. Basically Every behavior we see by players is massively influenced by the games design. Yes people can still choose otherwise, they allways can. But if it hurts their progress in the game they will never do it. If there is no reason to do it, they will rarely do it. Just "Being nice" is not what people play games for. Many play games because they can be a filthy pirate instead of the allways friendly guy behind the counter. 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Puchu

[qw569😳]

21 minutes ago, Puchu said:

I dont know how anyone can hate loki runes... well i actually do. It's the people who just want to farm AI and broadsidetrate it down by just having the bigger and better ship. Loki rune is not for people who dislike pvp. But then again ... they have their own server, dont they?

PVE is one source of most books, rarity cannons and modules.

[Never]

The same issue from years ago still remains, players don't want to sail around in a 'beautiful open world' if said world is boring to them without any motivating factors to make want to sail in it. Forcing people to go out and do things like trade or PVE to gain an income will always be NA's Achilles' heel. People should be able to sustain their economy in a PVP server without being forced into any activity that isn't PvP.

An illusion has been sold to players that they can play NA 'PVP server' and only exclusively PVP., maybe it was the intent of the Devs, but it hasn't been realized. Even if the server had one million players, you still can't play the game without doing hours upon hours of boring chores to be able to have resources to go out and PVP. Even if you only use DLC ships, you still have to buy tons of repairs and guns, and upgrades. So if you are just an average player, pvp alone will never be able to sustain you. Because 1 ship lost costs a lot more than what you can gain from sinking 1 ship. There just aren't enough support systems to give players the ability to sustain a pure PvP play style. The PvP game in NA is geared towards the top 1-5%  who can sink 10-20 enemy ships for each ship they lose. But what is sustaining all those who can only sink 1 or 2 while they lose 5 ships? what about those new players that only sink and take some weeks to get their first kill?

The ship 'insurance' was an attempt at alleviating things but it gives back only 5% of the value of a ship or less. So it's a decent feature but way out of balance. There needs to be a lot more features to support players that have a desired play style, that the game wants them to have. The game wants you to go out and PvP all day, but doesn't provide you with what you need for that or give you goals or motivation for it, other than PvP just for PvP's sake. Trade and PvE is far more rewarding cause you get more with far less risk, and infinitely more fair. 

[Puchu]

6 hours ago, qw569😳 said:

PVE is one source of most books, rarity cannons and modules.

Yes it is, but it doesn't have to be  

 

Never, you speak from my heart!!! 

I the last grind before the final exp grind I tested doing only pvp for exp, gold and everything. It was meant to find out if it is possible as a top 1% player (I'm pretty sure I did once belong to that league) to sustain yourself through only pvp. I was poor as a mouse all the time and i leveled much slower than everyone else. It was Painful. You cant reliably get kills when you are not suuuuper careful. But when you are suuuper careful you dont get fights at all...   

Yes i know things have changed since then, but im not sure they changed for the better. It used to be doable to beat 3rdrates in frigates. Through the accelleration changes this was made very very tricky. So chances are that you will be even poorer if you try my experiment now. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Puchu

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

8 hours ago, Puchu said:

Yes it is, but it doesn't have to be  

 

Never, you speak from my heart!!! 

I the last grind before the final exp grind I tested doing only pvp for exp, gold and everything. It was meant to find out if it is possible as a top 1% player (I'm pretty sure I did once belong to that league) to sustain yourself through only pvp. I was poor as a mouse all the time and i leveled much slower than everyone else. It was Painful. You cant reliably get kills when you are not suuuuper careful. But when you are suuuper careful you dont get fights at all...   

Yes i know things have changed since then, but im not sure they changed for the better. It used to be doable to beat 3rdrates in frigates. Through the accelleration changes this was made very very tricky. So chances are that you will be even poorer if you try my experiment now. 

why experiment? that's one of countless ways to play in the sandbox. a choice. we have a clanmate who almost exclusively sails in 6 & 7 rates. a choice. others might provide powerful upgrades with their long range and risk trading.... many ways to go in naval action.

[Hethwill]

all CHAT related discussion been split into a new thread as to preserve the original post idea

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/36415-battle-chat-global-chat/

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Hethwill

[Puchu]

4 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

why experiment? that's one of countless ways to play in the sandbox. a choice. we have a clanmate who almost exclusively sails in 6 & 7 rates. a choice. others might provide powerful upgrades with their long range and risk trading.... many ways to go in naval action.

True, there are countless ways to play this game. They are just not all treated equally. Some are more incentivised, some less. I need to have very strong reasons to conciously act against what the game offers me as the best/most effective way of doing things.