'Historical' Submod of J&P Rebalance mod, release thread

[dixiePig]

Thanks for the generous comments and speedy response, @adishee Especially pleased that you found the 'cavalry independence' and status popups suggestions useful - and relatively easy to implement. 

7 hours ago, adishee said:

I'm not actually too sure the degree to which they historically did operate independently at the regiment level.

Short answer:  Yes, the regiment was the fundamental battle unit and its subcommander (usually a Colonel) was expected to act with some initiative. And common sense.  Due to smoke, confusion, distance, and "other priorities" - the regimental commander was often required to interpret his (very rare) direct commands from the commanding general - and use his own best judgement in many, many situations.

The subcommander profile

Thanks for pointing out this feature - and how to access it. It ain't obvious.  And yet it should be.

• One way to provide us with a 'hint' that it's there would be to Highlight the XP-bar when (by chance) I mouseOver it.
• A tooltip might help
• Increase the 'actionable area' so that the profile feature is easier to find.  In this case, the profile would appear when I mouseover the subcommander's portrait or his name, as well.  Make it easy to be informed.  PS:  I have no need to mouseOver the xp-bar - and the profile just doesn't appear all that quickly.

The profile itself is sorta helpful, but also kinda wordy.  It will become increasingly unwieldy as my army grows (too much to remember).

Design problem

We have no profiles or leadership assessments for Division and Brigade level-commanders.  I realize that this is probably a limitation of the base game, but still ... The Divisional commander is the guy who 'manages' the behavioral quirks of his regimental subcommanders, interprets and executes the orders from the General, and is responsible for maintaining the integrity of The Line (multiple regiments) in battle, despite the behavioral strengths and weaknesses of individual regimental subcommanders.  His command profile (strengths & weaknesses) is very much a factor.

The commanding General depends on his divisional and brigade commanders to guide the regimental subcommanders wisely.  I realize that it's part of the game, but the commanding general should not be obliged to micromanage every regiment.

But more on that later...

8 hours ago, adishee said:

Also, the 'Reliable' officer perk allows a high degree of fine control including charge, fallback, facing, holding fire. So if you know a specific group of units are going to be operating away from the lines, you should try to find some of those officers that will not be useless

I have no way of knowing the behavioral profile of more than half of the subcommanders of the army in 1st Bull Run And at Shiloh, because they are not listed in the Order of Battle.

• Possible solution: Include a full listing of the entire army (even allied unites) in the Camp
• Possible solution: Allow me to see the behavioral profile of a unit commander in the midst of battle (when I really need to see it)

 

[adishee]

58 minutes ago, dixiePig said:

Thanks for the generous comments and speedy response, @adishee Especially pleased that you found the 'cavalry independence' and status popups suggestions useful - and relatively easy to implement. 

Short answer:  Yes, the regiment was the fundamental battle unit and its subcommander (usually a Colonel) was expected to act with some initiative. And common sense.  Due to smoke, confusion, distance, and "other priorities" - the regimental commander was often required to interpret his (very rare) direct commands from the commanding general - and use his own best judgement in many, many situations.

The subcommander profile

Thanks for pointing out this feature - and how to access it. It ain't obvious.  And yet it should be.

• One way to provide us with a 'hint' that it's there would be to Highlight the XP-bar when (by chance) I mouseOver it.
• A tooltip might help
• Increase the 'actionable area' so that the profile feature is easier to find.  In this case, the profile would appear when I mouseover the subcommander's portrait or his name, as well.  Make it easy to be informed.  PS:  I have no need to mouseOver the xp-bar - and the profile just doesn't appear all that quickly.

The profile itself is sorta helpful, but also kinda wordy.  It will become increasingly unwieldy as my army grows (too much to remember).

Design problem

We have no profiles or leadership assessments for Division and Brigade level-commanders.  I realize that this is probably a limitation of the base game, but still ... The Divisional commander is the guy who 'manages' the behavioral quirks of his regimental subcommanders, interprets and executes the orders from the General, and is responsible for maintaining the integrity of The Line (multiple regiments) in battle, despite the behavioral strengths and weaknesses of individual regimental subcommanders.  His command profile (strengths & weaknesses) is very much a factor.

The commanding General depends on his divisional and brigade commanders to guide the regimental subcommanders wisely.  I realize that it's part of the game, but the commanding general should not be obliged to micromanage every regiment.

But more on that later...

I have no way of knowing the behavioral profile of more than half of the subcommanders of the army in 1st Bull Run And at Shiloh, because they are not listed in the Order of Battle.

• Possible solution: Include a full listing of the entire army (even allied unites) in the Camp
• Possible solution: Allow me to see the behavioral profile of a unit commander in the midst of battle (when I really need to see it)

 

hey @dixiePig

One by one:

- regimental officer profiles: I empathise with you that these are not obvious to happen upon, but I was constrained to find anywhere to squeeze them in at all, and it took quite a lot of work to implement them. I would also like to add that if you mouse over regiment stats, it gives explanations about their computations. You can also mouse over the officers in your barracks to get the brief synopsis of traits. (Before you point out, the fact that you cannot see profiles of officers not yet hired is a feature-not-a-bug; I don't want the player to know what he is getting, I want a sort of lottery.)

- brigade command traits: Unfortunately the officer's personality traits don't really do anything fancy for officers at the brigade level. Only their reputation stats are implemented, and add/subtract morale from each of their units. I could definitely do more here but that remains for the distant future, if ever. The reputation is displayed in the usual place, and their reputations change based on their brigades' performances in each battle in terms of inflicted/sustained. So there are long term consequences for a poor showing, as with regiments themselves whose morale are permanently affected by battle performance. 

- traits in battle: The third hud mode displays all your regimental officers' traits, you need to cycle through to it with the tilde key.

 

*edit*

If the fancy strikes you, feel free to compile a list of traits and their effects that you think would be cool to apply to brigade level officers (division in vanilla). Such a thing would certainly help me in that implementation. Also if you feel like it, I've wanted to make historically notable officers' traits non-random -- eg Thomas Jackson: 'Sharp, Diffident, Energetic, Religious' -- but haven't found the time yet. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by adishee

[dixiePig]

18 hours ago, adishee said:

Before you point out, the fact that you cannot see profiles of officers not yet hired is a feature-not-a-bug; I don't want the player to know what he is getting, I want a sort of lottery

mmm ... sort of, but not really, imo.  An officer already has a record, a reputation, and has likely been evaluated by previous supervisors, so it's not likely to be a blank slate - especially in the case of more senior officers.  The surprise factor is interesting from a playability perspective, but is not necessarily historical.  Viable option:  display only a couple of attributes and/or an attribute might be re-evaluated after a battle - as you're already doing.

19 hours ago, adishee said:

officer's personality traits don't really do anything fancy for officers at the brigade level

Unfortunate.  In my experience the senior officers (the guys commanding brigades and divisions) are the onew we know most about ... precisely because - aside from the commanding general - they often had the most impact on the fighting of a battle.  Regimental commanders are important, but the divisional and brigade commanders hold the regiments together as a larger fighting unit.  There are plenty of examples throughout history of armies with decent troops who failed because they had shitty commanders.  A line of regiments will have  strengths and weaknesses within individual regiments, but its success is determined by how it functions as a larger unit (i.e. as a division or as a brigade)

Intriguing note:  We assign perks to commanders at a corps level and attribute/perks to regimental subcommanders, but divisional and brigade commanders ... nothing, really.

19 hours ago, adishee said:

If the fancy strikes you, feel free to compile a list of traits and their effects

I urge you to refocus those traits as the military would:  the metaphor is a Fitness Report rather than 'personality'. A commander needs to know how an officer will respond in battle.

Personality traits are kind of fluffy and difficult to interpret.  Net/net:  I may personally like Colonel A, but still know that Colonel B is the guy I want leading the charge.  The personality descriptors add color ... but what do they actually mean?  Several commanders could be described as "religious" - but their performance varied profoundly

A commander's attributes - like perks - define how they will perform.  That's how I'd look at them.  And I'd keep them simple, for starters (Once you know that the simple stuff works, you can always add complexity).

Here's a simple comparison of attribute / role / behavior

• Takes Initiative / Strong Attacker / likelier to move 
• Deliberate and Slow / Strong Defender / likelier to remain in place

For the sake of expediency, the role is how we see that commander.  It's not strictly an either/or, of course - but it's how we often describe people.

A lot of pages, but very thorough and insightful https://generalmeadesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/rate-generals-5-to-society-Wedo.pdf * This is the one to read! Excellent

Informal ranking of civil war generals https://www.andthevalleyshook.com/2015/4/16/8429647/poseur-ranks-the-world-civil-war-generals

 

 

[adishee]

2 hours ago, dixiePig said:

 

Here's a simple comparison of attribute / role / behavior

• Takes Initiative / Strong Attacker / likelier to move 
• Deliberate and Slow / Strong Defender / likelier to remain in place

For the sake of expediency, the role is how we see that commander.  It's not strictly an either/or, of course - but it's how we often describe people.

 

This would be a very easy implementation to apply assuming I get the auto-AI function to start working. That is to say, if a unit is out of the control area it would revert to the build-in AI control; and depending on aggressive / defensive personality, that brigade would use the attacking or defending AI. And if it were not optional, it would probably add a significant layer of shit to worry about for the player... I like it. Plus, you can always put the units on hold and they will not move around, which is probably good because that auto-AI is not very useful as we all probably know.

 

Thanks for the idea, I'll do some research on this down the road.

Edited March 23, 2021 by adishee

[dixiePig]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:55 PM, adishee said:

assuming I get the auto-AI function to start working

Here's hoping that it's not too much of a chore - It will really make a difference.  But I thought you wanted to walk away from this for a while?

On 3/23/2021 at 7:55 PM, adishee said:

you can always put the units on hold and they will not move around

As you know, I'm more concerned about units foolishly staying in a suicidal position because no-one has deliberately ordered them to NOT be dumb ... The most logical & realistic solution is "continue doing the last thing you were ordered to do ... until that order changes"

i.e. If I told you to 'hold position" ... then just continue to do that

if I told you to [Fallback] ... then fallback and fight.  If the enemy presses ... then fallback and fight. (repeat).  This allows exposed troops under pressure to fall back (hopefully in an orderly fashion) ... until other units can support them.  It's standard military training.

On 3/23/2021 at 7:55 PM, adishee said:

if it were not optional, it would probably add a significant layer of shit to worry about for the player

Yep.  A subcommander with strong Initiative but little Discipline might actually compromise a defensive situation ... by breaking the integrity of the defensive Line.  A subcommander with weak Intiative but strong Discipline might compromise a offensive situation by being reluctant to attack.  Both have been known to happen

* in this case 'discipline' means "willingness to follow orders (even if you don't necessarily agree with them)

Footnote:  The integrity of any army was always determined by "the Line":  The ability of a group of units to defend, attack, and support itself ... all of which is dependent on maintaining 'the Line'.  The perks/profile of the group's divisional/brigade commanders made a BIG difference.  The army commander/commanding general - even more so.  But don't ignore the value of "group" (brigade/division) commanders who maintain the group of regiments in theLine.

• Nice to Have: Show us behavior/profile/perks for the subcommanders we can acquire from Barracks, etc.

Edited March 29, 2021 by dixiePig
clarification & follow-up

[adishee]

@dixiePig check the version (f) I just posted, it gives a lot more tactical control to units in a pinch. I think you will appreciate that.

Quote

But I thought you wanted to walk away from this for a while?

I do; I do not think I'll research these ideas any time soon. After 1.3.5 is done and dusted I wanted to take a 6-12 month break from modding.

Quote

Nice to Have: Show us behavior/profile/perks for the subcommanders we can acquire from Barracks, etc.

I addressed this a couple posts above.

Edited March 30, 2021 by adishee
grammar / style

[Dauntless07]

Very interesting reading, and interesting developments since the last time I played this mod. I have a few ideas for improvement.

To nitpick, sprites of the dead look weird, and a few still seem too big, (like the train in the Union tutorial.) I understand if this is an engine limitation though. Also, initial units should probably be scaled down to match the Regiment-level vision, (especially since disbanding them manually no longer yields a manpower return.)

The big issue is micro management. It seems unreasonable to require the Corps General to issue direct orders to every unit. I know I can still draw a path, but that method is rather slow and tedious. I still think this should be an option however, as historical Generals (Albert Sydney Johnston) sometimes lead in this manner.

Here are my ideas:

1.  Make the first Regiment of a Brigade a pseudo General unit, similar to the Union cavalry that appears in 1st Bull Run.

2.  (Alternative) Re-enable direct orders without the General, but delay their reception by how distant that Regiment is from others in the same Brigade.

 

Either option would incentivize Regiments to stick together, and perhaps these orders can still be potentially ignored, depending on the Regiment officer’s traits. Just some friendly suggestions, if practical to implement.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Dauntless07

[adishee]

23 hours ago, Dauntless07 said:

Very interesting reading, and interesting developments since the last time I played this mod. I have a few ideas for improvement.

To nitpick, sprites of the dead look weird, and a few still seem too big, (like the train in the Union tutorial.) I understand if this is an engine limitation though. Also, initial units should probably be scaled down to match the Regiment-level vision, (especially since disbanding them manually no longer yields a manpower return.)

The big issue is micro management. It seems unreasonable to require the Corps General to issue direct orders to every unit. I know I can still draw a path, but that method is rather slow and tedious. I still think this should be an option however, as historical Generals (Albert Sydney Johnston) sometimes lead in this manner.

Here are my ideas:

1.  Make the first Regiment of a Brigade a pseudo General unit, similar to the Union cavalry that appears in 1st Bull Run.

2.  (Alternative) Re-enable direct orders without the General, but delay their reception by how distant that Regiment is from others in the same Brigade.

 

Either option would incentivize Regiments to stick together, and perhaps these orders can still be potentially ignored, depending on the Regiment officer’s traits. Just some friendly suggestions, if practical to implement.

@Dauntless07 I see what you're saying, but I think that if you take a step back from your concerns and look at the wider picture you might see that you are answering your own question/concern. The way I have the system set up is that the general should be reluctant to drill down into regiment-level command, unless he is specifically in the immediate area of units.

Rather, the player should concentrate on making calculated, considered bulk orders to whole brigades/multiple regiments at once. I've tried to cast command itself, or the player issuing orders, as a finite resource in the game. The general can only issue so many orders at once through his staff (in fact, the order cooldown rate is tied to the general's hp/total hp as well to achieve this effect).

So I appreciate what you're saying; but on the other hand, just the fact that you are saying it makes me think the effect is working as intended! I want it to be hard and messy to command, not like in vanilla where it is clearly abstracted away.

There is a lot of cleaning up of the order system in the current dev version, as well as a whole new simplified order macro view that I've developed, which allows a simplified view of the brigades specifically, and the ability to bulk select them.

[Dauntless07]

I’m not sure what you mean by “bulk orders”. Can you explain how, because I couldn’t find a way to issue commands to groups of units outside the General’s command radius at all. (Well, I did find an exploit where I can order distant units to occupy fortifications, and they instantly obey, but I’m pretty sure that was unintended.) What you said makes me think I haven’t been commanding as intended.

[adishee]

On 6/5/2021 at 7:45 AM, Dauntless07 said:

I’m not sure what you mean by “bulk orders”. Can you explain how, because I couldn’t find a way to issue commands to groups of units outside the General’s command radius at all. (Well, I did find an exploit where I can order distant units to occupy fortifications, and they instantly obey, but I’m pretty sure that was unintended.) What you said makes me think I haven’t been commanding as intended.

It's simple, you can double click on any unit and that will select the entire brigade of that unit (or, every unit that is not currently out of order). Then you can hold the right mouse button down to issue a line-order for all of those units. In this way, you can zoom way back and give large commands to many units at a time -- but of course this will force a cooldown of your commanders' ability to issues orders depending on your AO stat.

[adishee]

@Dauntless07 https://discord.gg/gTjpcR5d link to discord channel, I post latest dev versions there.

[Dauntless07]

I see. I was not aware that method of movement was still possible. The experience has much improved with that knowledge.

[adishee]

6 hours ago, Dauntless07 said:

I see. I was not aware that method of movement was still possible. The experience has much improved with that knowledge.

Very glad to hear it. Next version will have a much more cleaned up control scheme -- and maybe some useful documentation (finally) to introduce people to how the mod works.

[I_Din_Do_Nuffin]

Hey ive been loving this mod, it has made the game 100% better. Thanks for all of the effort you have put into this. You are the GOAT. 

I has one question though, is there any way I can re-enforce my veteran units with more men or do is my only option to disband a very depleted unit?

[adishee]

14 hours ago, I_Din_Do_Nuffin said:

Hey ive been loving this mod, it has made the game 100% better. Thanks for all of the effort you have put into this. You are the GOAT. 

I has one question though, is there any way I can re-enforce my veteran units with more men or do is my only option to disband a very depleted unit?

Thanks for the kind words.

Currently (and by this I mean, in the latest rolling dev version) the only type unit that cannot get new recruits is Union infantry regiments, which was historically, generally, the case (to their detriment).

Further, you can combine regiments in the camp screen. More work has been done on this in the latest dev version, but generally units must have the same equipment, perks, and be below the max unit size when combined and they can merge.

I encourage you to check out the submod channel here to get more explanation and the latest version, which is quite far evolved beyond the latest released version. 

[adishee]

release bump

[I_Din_Do_Nuffin]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:12 AM, adishee said:

Thanks for the kind words.

Currently (and by this I mean, in the latest rolling dev version) the only type unit that cannot get new recruits is Union infantry regiments, which was historically, generally, the case (to their detriment).

Further, you can combine regiments in the camp screen. More work has been done on this in the latest dev version, but generally units must have the same equipment, perks, and be below the max unit size when combined and they can merge.

I encourage you to check out the submod channel here to get more explanation and the latest version, which is quite far evolved beyond the latest released version. 

Thanks you so much! Could you post the link again? When I click on it is says is expired.

[adishee]

19 hours ago, I_Din_Do_Nuffin said:

Thanks you so much! Could you post the link again? When I click on it is says is expired.

Try it again?

[I_Din_Do_Nuffin]

4 hours ago, adishee said:

Try it again?

Still no luck : / idk why discord does this sometimes.

[adishee]

OH. I thought you meant the download link. 

https://discord.gg/wVn6Y7uZ

[Chieftan]

I'm having a severe issue with the first Confederate mission, being that it does not recognize the batteries destroyed, so it fails me after the defence because of the previous phase, and can't continue.

Also, I am having a frustrating experience with the selecting my cavalry causing my entire force to be selected.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Chieftan

[adishee]

On 9/26/2021 at 9:14 PM, Chieftan said:

I'm having a severe issue with the first Confederate mission, being that it does not recognize the batteries destroyed, so it fails me after the defence because of the previous phase, and can't continue.

Also, I am having a frustrating experience with the selecting my cavalry causing my entire force to be selected.

Hi @Chieftan,

1) The first issue, this is a known issue within the J&P mod (and I think vanilla). Sorry about that, I've tried to fix this but I guess it didn't work, just try replaying the battle and eventually it will trigger. That is not a great answer but it works.

2) In my submod, when you are zoomed out you enter 'macro' or 'brigade' mode, whatever you like. This allows you to select entire brigades with one click. If you zoom IN, it will re-enter normal mode in which individual units (regiments) can be selected. You can change the distance at which this mode changes in the Historical config file. But just zoom in, I think this is the problem you are having. In addition, make sure you're not double clicking the unit because this will also select the entire brigade in the submod.

Let me know if you're still having issues.

[Chieftan]

Hi there, I was wondering if you could make a submod for J&P that just changes the unit formations to that of your mod. I much prefer the thin lines to the whoppers of a unit in vanilla and in rebalance.

[Gettysburg]

@adishee,

I don't know if this is part of the mod or not, but the regiments cannot be reinforced after the battle. I have not changed anything, and have downloaded everything correctly. Is this intentional? I understand that you've ended further updates the mod, but I just want to clarify.

Thanks

[pandakraut]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:38 PM, Gettysburg said:

@adishee,

I don't know if this is part of the mod or not, but the regiments cannot be reinforced after the battle. I have not changed anything, and have downloaded everything correctly. Is this intentional? I understand that you've ended further updates the mod, but I just want to clarify.

Thanks

It might be a union only thing. But I'm pretty sure this is intentional. You're intended to merge units by dragging them on top of each other as historically those brigades didn't get topped up.