Superimposed turrets

[Marshall99]

Kearsarge-class battleships had superimposed turrets. It means that on the top of the main turret, there was another turret, but way smaller and carried smaller caliber guns.

My question is, that will they be implemented into the game? It is not necessary to be able to rotate those smaller turrets. But it would be fun to have them. I think this is not a high priority thing, but later in the future it would be cool. 

Here is a picture about the USS Kearsarge (BB-5).

 

[Haratik]

Devs might consider it, but iirc from a historical standpoint, that particular form of turret arrangement was ineffective for multiple reasons, hence why it wasn't repeated in future classes.

 

A closer look at the turret arrangement:

 

Quoted from Wikipedia:
Kearsarge had two double turrets, with two 13 in (330 mm)/35 caliber guns and two 8 in (203 mm)/40 caliber guns each, stacked in two levels.^[5] The guns and turret armor were designed by the Bureau of Ordnance, while the turret itself was designed by the Bureau of Construction and Repair. This caused the guns to be mounted far back in the turret, making the ports very large. Admiral William Sims claimed that as a result, a shell fired into the port could reach the magazines below, disabling the guns.

[RedParadize]

Doesn't look practical. I love it!

[Marshall99]

I love the inefective designes

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Marshall99

[Hardlec]

The main problem with this arrangement was the difficulty getting ammunition to the upper turret.  It also raised the center of gravity of the ship, reducing stability.  

I love the look. It would be soooooo cool to have these.

Of course, in WWII, the US put quad 40mm gun tubs on some big gun turrets. The idea wasn't totally impractical.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

1 hour ago, Hardlec said:

The main problem with this arrangement was the difficulty getting ammunition to the upper turret.  It also raised the center of gravity of the ship, reducing stability.  

I love the look. It would be soooooo cool to have these.

Of course, in WWII, the US put quad 40mm gun tubs on some big gun turrets. The idea wasn't totally impractical.

 

Medium/light AA guns on main turrets was entirely practical. Every bit of horizontal space was nicely used for AA weaponry.

[Absolute0CA]

40mm is a hell of a lot smaller than 8” guns, also those 8” were fixed to the same point of aim as the 13” 

[Hellstrike]

Also, those AA guns were not used if the main battery was firing due to blast effects. And due to the vulnerability of the crew to return fire. There were few engagements when air and surface threats were present at the same time, and most of them were acts of desperation rather than actions according to doctrine (eg Samar).

[Hardlec]

Blast effects were not considered, or maybe not considered well enough, when turrets En Echelon were popular.  That lesson was learned the hard way.

Placing Medium AA guns on main battery turrets was not the same as superimposing 8 inch guns on a turret for 13 inch guns, except for the idea of superimposition.  Certain ideas come and go. Some ideas were ahead of their time, some  ideas were behind their time, some ideas were great, some were stupid.

The challenge is to allow players to think out of the box while not providing players the advantages of of perfect hindsight.

 

 

[Marshall99]

In my opinion, if these superimposed turrets are implemented into the game, the aim time of the two 8' guns should be faster. Why? Because these 8' guns turns with the main turret. So when the main turrets lock on the target, these smaller guns should too. So in my opinion these 8' superimposed guns accuracy are better than other secondary gun accuracy. 

[ThatZenoGuy]

10 hours ago, Marshall99 said:

In my opinion, if these superimposed turrets are implemented into the game, the aim time of the two 8' guns should be faster. Why? Because these 8' guns turns with the main turret. So when the main turrets lock on the target, these smaller guns should too. So in my opinion these 8' superimposed guns accuracy are better than other secondary gun accuracy. 

The guns are on top of a turret which is also trying to move against specific targets (8 inches targetting cruisers, main caliber guns BB's), so it'd actually be less accurate and might have a hard time even getting on target.

[akd]

It’s a fixed housing on top of the turret, not a separate turret.  The idea was that the faster firing 8in could engage the target while the slow reload process for the main guns was underway.  With tech that improved main gun reload rates, the whole idea became pointless.

Edited October 27, 2019 by akd

[RedParadize]

I think it always been pointless... The added complexity is just not worth it.

[PainGod]

I'm not really a fan of capital turrets mounted on capital turrets, but there is precedent for mounting small caliber AA guns on battleship turrets, especially late in the war.

[Marshall99]

Placing AA on main turrets were common. Warspite had, Gangut, Viribus Unitis, etc. Why not placing another turret? It looks stupid i know. It is inefficient. But a piece of history.

Also, if i remember correct, USS Virginia BB-13 had these superimposed turrets. Maybe she was the last pre dreadnougt, carrying a superimposed turrets. It is not neccessary to implement these into the game, but history is history. 

[akd]

That was not a turret on a turret on Virginia.  It is essentially a two-tiered, two-caliber quad turret.

Open AA / anti-torpedo guns on top of turrets could not be used while main guns were active, so presents a big problem.

Edited October 29, 2019 by akd

[Marshall99]

31 minutes ago, akd said:

That was not a turret on a turret.  It is essentially a two-tiered, two-caliber quad turret.

AA / anti-torpedo guns could not be used while main guns were active, so presents a big problem.

She carried the same main armament as the Maine class but added 4 dual 8-inch guns in an unusual superimposed turret arrangement. Virginia cruised with the Great White Fleet.

I found this information in this documentary. 

Link: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/bb-13.htm

 

If I am wrong or misunderstanding this article, please correct me. 

[akd]

I elaborated above.  “Superimposed turret” would be better written as “turret with superimposed gun arrangement.”

Quote

The superposed turrets ultimately proved to be very problematic; the arrangement had been conceived initially to save weight and allow the much faster firing 8 in guns to shoot during the long reload time necessary for large caliber guns. By the time the Virginias entered service, smokeless propellant and rapid firing, large caliber guns had reduced the time between shots from 180 seconds to 20. The 8 in guns could no longer fire at their maximum rate without interfering with the 12 in guns, since the concussion and hot gasses would disrupt the crew below. In addition, the British HMS Dreadnought—the first "all-big-gun" battleship to enter service—commissioned in late 1906 shortly after the Virginias and rendered them obsolescent at a single stroke.^[2]

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by akd

[Illya von Einzbern]

to be fair i love the idea of having turret on turret...
16" gun with 4" top mount for extra dakka ^^
wait... 16" gun with 8" and top of that a 2" deck gun... now this is cool but silly  

[Marshall99]

On 11/12/2019 at 9:40 AM, Illya von Einzbern said:

to be fair i love the idea of having turret on turret...
16" gun with 4" top mount for extra dakka ^^
wait... 16" gun with 8" and top of that a 2" deck gun... now this is cool but silly  

If it looks stupid, but works, it ain't stupid.

Change my minde 😃