Is there obligation for PVP server to protect PVE only veterans?

[Jean Ribault]

13 minutes ago, fox2run said:

It was the status in marts 2016. Never had this much fun in a pc game. But it got boring down the road. 2000 online where not mythical. But real. Guess you must be new?

I was on then.  Flags gave the [battle] content then IMO.  This whole hostility system garbage is to blame.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Jean Ribault

[IndianaGeoff]

11 minutes ago, fox2run said:

It was the status in marts 2016. Never had this much fun in a pc game. But it got boring down the road. 2000 online where not mythical. But real. Guess you must be new?

I was around then.  Population levels crashed long before the great wipe even during your mythical PvP free for all.

This game will not survive without a continual stream of new players.  It will not have said stream without an in game progression of things to do and a chance to learn how to play.  If those new players are killed 15 minutes after sailing their newly purchased Surprise, they are gone.  That was tried in hardmode.  If failed miserably.  I am finding new players are staying longer now but the flow of new people into the game is rather low.

Edited December 11, 2017 by IndianaGeoff

[IndianaGeoff]

3 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

I was on then.  Flags gave the content then IMO.  This whole hostility system garbage is to blame.

I agree the flag system worked.  Yes the battles were lame (3 towers in an ocean), but the whole process of pulling a flag, chasing the flag carrier then fighting the battle worked.  If gave you a reason to get on each night.  If you were on smashing AI and things started going down, you escaped the AI fight and went to where the battle was.  You had to be positioned to defend your ports at the drop of a hat and your team had to be organized.

[Jean Ribault]

5 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I agree the flag system worked.  Yes the battles were lame (3 towers in an ocean), but the whole process of pulling a flag, chasing the flag carrier then fighting the battle worked.  If gave you a reason to get on each night.  If you were on smashing AI and things started going down, you escaped the AI fight and went to where the battle was.  You had to be positioned to defend your ports at the drop of a hat and your team had to be organized.

Completely agree, and while there were certainly more people on at the time it was still true that the system while flawed still provided a more lively element to the server.  Hostility never has done that, not once.

[Hethwill]

People refuse to sail out and chase the hostility runners for some reason... I guess it is the same reason they Cat&mouse pvp. Either you attack and rise up to a epic challenge or you will not.

Assymmetry will always be a given. The majority of combat will never be fair. So better to sit on our hands or actually damn it all and sail out on ships we can afford to lose ?

C'mooon captains, we have seen it all and not once, not once have we seen 99% of players out there in pvp no matter what. It is a mindset  

Grab the NPC shop ships and fight. No reason to cry  why oh why did my beauty sunk... 

Deal ?

[Jean Ribault]

18 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

People refuse to sail out and chase the hostility runners for some reason... I guess it is the same reason they Cat&mouse pvp. Either you attack and rise up to a epic challenge or you will not.

...

 

I can tell you why, at least for solo players.  I looked for areas of hostility and then went there to fight.  Instead, I was met with gank forces and at least one time was ganked three times in a row before I just gave up.  Maybe others too.  Yeah yeah yeah, join a big group you say and go out together, but that don't really work out when you only get a small time per day to get on and you can't be relied upon because your kids are constantly needy.

[IndianaGeoff]

46 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

People refuse to sail out and chase the hostility runners for some reason... I guess it is the same reason they Cat&mouse pvp. Either you attack and rise up to a epic challenge or you will not.

Assymmetry will always be a given. The majority of combat will never be fair. So better to sit on our hands or actually damn it all and sail out on ships we can afford to lose ?

C'mooon captains, we have seen it all and not once, not once have we seen 99% of players out there in pvp no matter what. It is a mindset  

Grab the NPC shop ships and fight. No reason to cry  why oh why did my beauty sunk... 

Deal ?

The current hostility missions are not even close to the same dynamic as the flag missions.  With the flags, win or lose, it was over that night.  With current missions, hostility never ends.  You might get beaten back, but you can go back at it a couple hours later.  All that assumes that someone is watching the hostility counter, you can find them and in the end, the port battle is a day later.

I do not suggest that you change the port battle system.  The current system is very serviceable.

Instead, incorporate the old flag system into a raid mechanic.  Something with real teeth.  Maybe a successful raid will eliminate coastal batteries for 3 or 4 days, set hostility or steal loot (ie loot in a port, reduce resource spawning, cost the owner money etc).  Pull the flag and when it is pulled the type of attack is chosen.  Do a server announcement, plant the flag (or he is stopped), start the raid and if the defenders show up, a fight.

Maybe we are all wrong, but player levels were higher in the flag era.  It seemed like most nights, fun was to be had.  You actually liked the nights that were quiet so you could do other stuff.  Any time you were on, you knew you might be thrown into a life or death struggle over a port that mattered.  It was not perfect, but it was a game mechanic that older players keep asking for.  It worked.  Find a way to put it back in.  Tweak it, but run with your winners.

[Barbancourt]

On 12/11/2017 at 5:02 AM, Hethwill said:

People refuse to sail out and chase the hostility runners for some reason... I guess it is the same reason they Cat&mouse pvp. Either you attack and rise up to a epic challenge or you will not.

Assymmetry will always be a given. The majority of combat will never be fair. So better to sit on our hands or actually damn it all and sail out on ships we can afford to lose ?

Why would I want to hand the enemy free ships, repairs and XP, plus aid their hostility generation by getting sunk?  That isn't fun at all, and just wastes what little leisure time people have.  "Oh no, the Bulgarians have a fleet trying to flip Grand Anse - I better get up there in my Frigate and put a stop to this!"  LeL

I wonder if there could be a modification so that when somebody creates a hostility mission it creates an opportunity for the port owner to assemble an appropriate BR player battle group and get transported into the hostility mission instead of the usual AI defenders.  That would be interesting.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd)

[Anne Wildcat]

22 minutes ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

 

I wonder if there could be a modification so that when somebody creates a hostility mission it creates an opportunity for the port owner to assemble an appropriate BR player battle group and get transported into the hostility mission instead of the usual AI defenders.  That would be interesting.

 

 

That would be interesting but it caters to laziness, like people who now sit in port and wait for an enemy sighting to be shouted in chat. 

[Barbancourt]

2 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

That would be interesting but it caters to laziness, like people who now sit in port and wait for an enemy sighting to be shouted in chat. 

1)  You can form a battle group at any time from players/ships all over the map, though some people would need to use tow to port and/or teleport and change and unfleet ships first. 

2) Generally if people are in the OW instead of port they're already busy with some time consuming task and can't get involved in immediate action anyway. 

3)  Allows some people to be alerted offline and quickly log into the game to join the battle group. 

4)  PVE hostility missions, night/workflips and empty port battles suck. 

[Sea Nettle]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:50 AM, admin said:

Can you wardec the Imperial Academy? Or School of applied knowledge?

Eve went from a sub model to free 2 play. Much like POTBS did the same. It's a last resort before the plug is pulled. That isn't a team/model one should look too.

The tyranny of new player protections quickly becomes the tyranny of exploitable mechanics and leads to a dead game.

Eve is also a bit more complicated than either this or potbs and has other considerations. But the logistics portion of the game is nigh pointless as hi-security protections remove the ability to stop the enemy from rebuilding which is key to war.

The only safe zone in this game should be one that teaches the mechanics. Anything after that should be earned through risk.

People are new for only a short duration and you are going to have far more veterans than new players in the best of circumstances.

Another huge issue you have is allowing free reign to join whatever nation a player wants which leads to massive imbalances in populations.

Do away with nations altogether aside from flavor, get rid of port battles and turn the game into a leaderboard contest for wealth, kills, captures etc. Like Sid Meier's Pirates but with the depth it currently has. This can be made to cater to all types of players. Have the boards be able to sort as monthly, weekly and daily. I'd avoid lifetime as the maximum data stored limitation leads to a first person to max becomes 1st for life issue.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Sea Nettle

[Sunleader]

Players being New or Vet doesnt really Matter.

PvE Players are either Protected or dont Exist.

A Protected PvE Player will sometimes venture into other Areas and thus end up in PvP.

A Unprotected PvE Player will consider the Game "Not Fun" and will leave the Game entirely thus never again appearing in PvP.

So you could just as well ask. If there is any Obligation to Keep Servers Running or just Shut em down right away.

 

 

Not that it matters at this Point anymore. As the Game is Practically Dead already and wont recover unless the Devs run a Massive 180 Degree Turn on their Development Priorities which they wont do anyways.

Naval Action Legends will take over most of the PvP Playerbase. Gankers and other Scum will haunt the Servers as long as they keep running and since there is little to no PvE Content in the Game the PvE Server will remain a small idle place till its Shut down.

At least Naval Action Legends will likely be hugely more Successful and keep the Company above the Water.

 

[Hethwill]

Go check your figures in all the books you can devour about naval warfare. All of it is based on trade protection and transportation of goods and control of routes amking sure enemies do not intercept allied shipping.

A wargame based on sea, in any era, is in its essence trade wars. Navies protect trade which fuels building navy.

Not that it matters at this point anymore, for you. Stay safe captain.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

Go check your figures in all the books you can devour about naval warfare. All of it is based on trade protection and transportation of goods and control of routes amking sure enemies do not intercept allied shipping.

A wargame based on sea, in any era, is in its essence trade wars. Navies protect trade which fuels building navy.

Not that it matters at this point anymore, for you. Stay safe captain.

 

Oh it does matter to me Mate.

I have no Intention to leave until its over. And I actually have Hopes that Legends which suits a PvP Gamestyle way better. Will actually take off quite well once its open to more than just the few NA Players we got currently.

 

As for the comment.  I somehow Doubt that Reading any Books on Naval Warfare has any Meaning to this. For there are some Big Differences between Reality and Game my Friend.

You see. In Reality People actually Lived there and needed to Work and Eat. They had little choice but to take the Danger. Regardless of it being Fun or absolutely Hated by them. 

And Pirates as well as National Captains Risked their Lives in any Engagement. Thus they would usually not waste Ressources and Possibly Risk Death in any Engagements that were not Necessary for them. 

Meaningless Slaughter of Ships attacking anything they see just for the Fight was nearly nonexistent thanks to the Risks and Gains involved. And in General the Ratio of Pirates vs Trading Ships was absurdly high in Favor of the Trading Ships.

 

In the Game ?

RPKs and Griefers not only will Attack anything that is a Player on Sight entirely Regardless of it being worth the Time or having any Value in the First Place. But they also Vastly Outnumber the Traders and other Players in the Game.

While in Reality you had 10-20 Trade Ships crossing the Lanes where maybe 1 Smaller Pirate Ship or very rarely an Enemy Nation Frigate was Hunting. In the Game You got 1 Trade Ship attempting to somehow scrape through 10-20 Pirates and Enemy Nationals sitting in Frigates and Ships of the Line

 

But the Biggest Difference. Is the Simple Fact that in a Game. If people dont like it they can just Walk away and tell you to Screw yourself and your System

In Short. If its not Fun to them. They just Leave

Which is pretty much exactly what happened already in this Game and which is why the Games Population keeps Shrinking further and further.

[Landsman]

I think the new patch is real cancer for nation and RvR balance but I have to admit I love how admin basically said "Go hello kitty yourselves!" to the PvE players on the PvP server.

[IndianaGeoff]

3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Go check your figures in all the books you can devour about naval warfare. All of it is based on trade protection and transportation of goods and control of routes amking sure enemies do not intercept allied shipping.

A wargame based on sea, in any era, is in its essence trade wars. Navies protect trade which fuels building navy.

Not that it matters at this point anymore, for you. Stay safe captain.

Yes, that perfectly explains a 2 minute timer for people to join a battle, invisibilty and super speed at the end of a battle and an attacker being able to use these mechanics against the AI ships of other nations to jump away from a defense fleet.

If you want to keep up this "defend the coast" BS, then take the handcuffs off and let us go out and defend our coasts.  If anything is in character it is the ability to call in a massive AI fleet when in sight of your own capital.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Landsman said:

I think the new patch is real cancer for nation and RvR balance but I have to admit I love how admin basically said "Go hello kitty yourselves!" to the PvE players on the PvP server.

 

Problem is. The Vast Majority of PvE Players has long said "go hello kitty yourselves" to the Devs and Admin and have left for Good.

So I am not exactly sure it really matters at this Point anymore.

I doubt PvP Server will exist in 2 Years time.

 

I am also Highly Interested in the Fact. That upon the Server Merge. They REMOVED the PvP label of the Server. Just calling it Carribean now.

I dont know tough if thats a sign that they might be going more towards a Mixed Server in the Future. Or if they just removed it hoping that Players (which almost never read Description) are more likely to Join it lol

Edited December 24, 2017 by Sunleader

[Hethwill]

3 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Yes, that perfectly explains a 2 minute timer for people to join a battle, invisibilty and super speed at the end of a battle and an attacker being able to use these mechanics against the AI ships of other nations to jump away from a defense fleet.

If you want to keep up this "defend the coast" BS, then take the handcuffs off and let us go out and defend our coasts.  If anything is in character it is the ability to call in a massive AI fleet when in sight of your own capital.

I totally support that. Let's make timescale 1:1 in OW and in battles and battles stay open all the time.

aka. you are there or you ain't

( or players can collaborate, setup regular convoys and escort them. nothing stops you from doing this except your own haste )

 

@Sunleader

Yes. It is a jungle out there.

That's how it is in wargames somehow. Go fly alone and be prey or fly with a wing and put up a fight. Choices choices...

[Sunleader]

6 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I totally support that. Let's make timescale 1:1 in OW and in battles and battles stay open all the time.

aka. you are there or you ain't

 

Sure but only if we also make the Distances 1 on 1 in OW.

While that RPK Ganking Squad goes Chasing me I.ll go AFK for 2 or 3 days while they are Catching up with their 1 Knot Faster Ship seeing my Sails in the Distance

[Hethwill]

Just now, Sunleader said:

 

Sure but only if we also make the Distances 1 on 1 in OW.

While that RPK Ganking Squad goes Chasing me I.ll go AFK for 2 or 3 days while they are Catching up with their 1 Knot Faster Ship seeing my Sails in the Distance

I just provided a equally valid argument sir. Timescale and how to reach to places.

aka. you are there or you ain't

is it good for gameplay ? you think of saving your buddies. I know exactly of how to ambush you and your buddies blind with a long timer. been there, done that.

We do not test for own concern but fair honest experience and equal chances.

[Sunleader]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I totally support that. Let's make timescale 1:1 in OW and in battles and battles stay open all the time.

aka. you are there or you ain't

( or players can collaborate, setup regular convoys and escort them. nothing stops you from doing this except your own haste )

 

@Sunleader

Yes. It is a jungle out there.

That's how it is in wargames somehow. Go fly alone and be prey or fly with a wing and put up a fight. Choices choices...

 

Except there is not much of the Jungle Left.

 

 

There is nothing that would ever be able to keep up regrowth when faced with Unrestricted Human Greed.

 

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I just provided a equally valid argument sir. Timescale and how to reach to places.

aka. you are there or you ain't

is it good for gameplay ? you think of saving your buddies. I know exactly of how to ambush you and your buddies blind with a long timer. been there, done that.

We do not test for own concern but fair honest experience and equal chances.

 

Yes. And I answered with the same Idea.

 

Base Statement.

An Fleet in range of a Port would call for Reinforcements.

 

Counter Statement.

In Reality this Fleet would need very long to Arrive for Helping the Ship and the Range would be extremely Limited.

 

Hence my own Counter Statement.

In Reality this goes both ways. Its true that Sending for Help when your Lookouts spot an Attack would take very long.

But in Reality you would also never have that case of an Enemy Ship just catching you in 2 Minutes while your attempting to Escape towards your Port.

 

 

 

The Truth is.

If we go by Realism. The Port would in Fact Send Reinforcements as far as they are Available.

And they would Arrive in Time. Not because they are Fast. But because an Inferior Fleet would head towards the Port and catching up would take Hours or even Days for the Enemy Fleet giving the Port enough time to not only Send Reinforcements. But in Reality often giving the Defending Port enough Time to even Levy additional Garrisson Troops for a Coastal Defense.

 

 

I dont mind additional Realism. But if we go that route we have to take it all.

Not just the Bits that you PvP Guys would like to have

Edited December 24, 2017 by Sunleader

[Hethwill]

Fair enough.

But given "in reality" a ship would never fly a ID, i wonder how "in reality" comes to play when a trader would even have an idea it is a enemy ship until it is too late. But hey  gameplay, so everything cool.

I would, "in reality", sail in port, with the naval base just up river, board and steal a brig at anchor - tradesmen scared to hell surrendering the ship, they are not fighters, nor marines - and sail away with it as prize, and even hail the patrol with impeccable english explaining and showing flase papers, even having a tea while waiting for confirmation, and then make way back to homeland.

The timescale is equal for everyone atm. Maybe some groups are just more organize and collaborate more than others.

It is not the timers. This has been proven. But by all means, let rip with them open all the time. More meat for the grinder, given at the moment is all flag squadrons flying around  

 

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Fair enough.

But given "in reality" a ship would never fly a ID, i wonder how "in reality" comes to play when a trader would even have an idea it is a enemy ship until it is too late. But hey  gameplay, so everything cool.

I would, "in reality", sail in port, with the naval base just up river, board and steal a brig at anchor - tradesmen scared to hell surrendering the ship, they are not fighters, nor marines - and sail away with it as prize, and even hail the patrol with impeccable english explaining and showing flase papers, even having a tea while waiting for confirmation, and then make way back to homeland.

The timescale is equal for everyone atm. Maybe some groups are just more organize and collaborate more than others.

It is not the timers. This has been proven. But by all means, let rip with them open all the time. More meat for the grinder, given at the moment is all flag squadrons flying around  

 

 

2 Reasons. (pls note I actually assume you know this but will explain it anyways)

 

In Reality. Most Traders would Fly a Neutral Countries Flag. To make sure they dont get caught by Warships of two Factions at War. 

And in Reality there was no Battle Royale going on. Especially not with Ships hunting near Enemy Ports. After all what use does it have to Catch a Trader of the Enemy if he in exchange gets a Warship of yours which was so deep inside his Territory that he could encircle and Destroy it

And actually most Trade Ships were Heavily Armed far beyond what Pirates could actually Muster. So Pirates would usually not Attack these anyways. They would usually Attack smaller Local Vessels

 

 

And yes. The Timescale is not the Problem in itself.

There is currently 2 Major Problems.

 

The First Problem is that there is no Consequence for Running completely useless Fights against Newer and/or Weaker Players.

Which in Effect results in RPKs just Massacring anything they can with no Risk to it. Causing New Players to never get any Foot in the Door and causing even Older Players to be Decimated over time.

As long as this stays this way. The Game will run a Negative Population Trend. Because no amount of New Players will ever Keep up with how many Players the RPKs and Ganking Squads drive out of the Game.

 

The Second Problem is that there is little to no Territorial Control. In Reality Traders and Allied Fleets were Defended by Patrolling Fleets and Networks of Spotting Towers and Scouts.

But in the Game the Patrolling NPC Fleets dont Attack Enemies entering their Territory. And if anyone seriously Expects Players to Patrol their Waters in any way that would allow for Defense of PvE Players you could just as well put a Bucket of Water next to your Cat and Rely on it to Clean up the House while your Gone

And here is the thing I always say. Players Play for Fun. If its not Fun they dont Play.

You either Protect them or you wont have anything to Protect. Thing is. You wont have anyone to Hunt or Build Ships for you either.

 

 

Theme Park Games with very Restricted PvP like Silkroad, WoW or whatever. Got 10 times as much PvP all Day long than Naval Action has even in Prime Time.

Is because these Games got Players.

A Game with 5000 People online and very Strict PvP Restrictions. Will still have far far more PvP than a Game with 500 People Online could ever have even if it removed any and all Restrictions.

 

 

 

As the Picture of the Jungle Above my Friend.

There is no Population in the World that will Survive if Human Greed is not Restricted.

Currently. The Protection for Players on the PvP Server is far too low as for that Server to ever get out of the Negative Population Development.

So the Server Spirals down the Path that any other of the Unrestricted PvP Servers in other Games took as well. Decimating its Population over and over while Preventing any Regrowth of Population. Until at some Point there is nobody Left.

 

[Slim McSauce]

7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

The Second Problem is that there is little to no Territorial Control. In Reality Traders and Allied Fleets were Defended by Patrolling Fleets and Networks of Spotting Towers and Scouts.

But in the Game the Patrolling NPC Fleets dont Attack Enemies entering their Territory. And if anyone seriously Expects Players to Patrol their Waters in any way that would allow for Defense of PvE Players you could just as well put a Bucket of Water next to your Cat and Rely on it to Clean up the House while your Gone

Agree immensely here. We could take out the term RVR and just use PBs because that's basically all it is. No OW integration at all, no territory to hold, no port spotting, no points of interest. Just bland open ocean that no one wants to fight for.

Not everyone wants to be a solo hunter, some people enjoy the fleet v fleet dynamic but that is mostly only found in PBs and its not realistic nor fun.

Give us OW objectives so we can be actual navies at war and not a bunch of privateers.