Stone Rivers, Advice/Something?

[Slaithium]

Ok apparently I am doing something wrong, I am playing the game on Hard and seems almost impossible to push the Union as confederates. Ill do a play by play so those who read this can follow.

I. I take the initial objective pretty easy.

II. After that, the union bunches up in the trees and take almost 2 phases to get them routing. Using Cannons in close range 60-70% of my Corps shooting them.

III. Even when/if I do clear them and push on to the hill top. with the casualties sustained I can not get them off the hill prior to Nashville Pike. I have gotten them off the hill once on hard mode then my Corps litteraly had 1371 men left out of 23,000.... Most of the time I can not get them off it and the remains are not mush better.

IV. Proceeding the to next day, you can really flank from where the game suggests because the river crossing so narrow and then heavily defended. Attack head on with what is left of basically one corps at this point. So you have to march up hill and hope to remove them from there entrenches there. On top of that if try to bring cannons up you can get you inf to hold long enough for them to fire off before the inf breaks.

V. After all of that, if you can get them off the first objective. My army is basically spent and can not even reach the last objective.

So I do not know if this is a design flaw or I am doing it wrong. If anyone can help, if not, there needs to be a nerf because it is too much in my opinion.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Slaithium

[Hitorishizuka]

The key thing to remember is that none of the VPs matter in the end except for the final ones. All the intermediate VPs should be used as guidance for how to control the AIs movements and general hints on where you can find them. What you've described is actually, interestingly enough, exactly what the RL Confederates ran into in that battle--as they pressed in on the Union lines, their own forces wore down and the Union became more and more compacted in a defensible area until their final shell couldn't be cracked.

To combat this you need to ensure that Union forces can't keep retreating in good order to better and better defensive positions.

Broad suggestions:

In Phase 1, ignore the VPs initially and push the center directly between the two. Then use that as an anchor to push south (token guard north to not get flanked) and cut off the Union forces at the south VP and pocket them and eliminate them.

In the next phase, ignore the VP at the start and instead push hard west, then north to come up behind them. Then do the same thing as before and push against the VP from the west while having anvil forces south and east.

Done correctly, you should be able to pocket and eliminate the majority of the Union forces before the final VP while still having most of yours intact. Then you should be able to brute force the Pike (attack from the SW, the cover's better for you on that side) against what's remaining.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Hitorishizuka

[Slaithium]

1 hour ago, Hitorishizuka said:

The key thing to remember is that none of the VPs matter in the end except for the final ones. All the intermediate VPs should be used as guidance for how to control the AIs movements and general hints on where you can find them. What you've described is actually, interestingly enough, exactly what the RL Confederates ran into in that battle--as they pressed in on the Union lines, their own forces wore down and the Union became more and more compacted in a defensible area until their final shell couldn't be cracked.

To combat this you need to ensure that Union forces can't keep retreating in good order to better and better defensive positions.

Broad suggestions:

In Phase 1, ignore the VPs initially and push the center directly between the two. Then use that as an anchor to push south (token guard north to not get flanked) and cut off the Union forces at the south VP and pocket them and eliminate them.

In the next phase, ignore the VP at the start and instead push hard west, then north to come up behind them. Then do the same thing as before and push against the VP from the west while having anvil forces south and east.

Done correctly, you should be able to pocket and eliminate the majority of the Union forces before the final VP while still having most of yours intact. Then you should be able to brute force the Pike (attack from the SW, the cover's better for you on that side) against what's remaining.

Is there a video of this? And thanks for the reply, any help would be great and so far I can imagine what you are saying but I can not quite get a full picture.

[Squadron HQ]

Stones is hard because the AI has great cover at the start and you're opening with weak cover. I actually shift most of my force to the northern VP in the early phase and slowly build a salient around whatever they have in the wood. Where possible you want to draw them out onto the plains, butcher them, then corral them in the forest and get in there yourself. I often see people on this forum say to win at Stones you have to break the centre but I do not see the point in attacking cannons, with infantry in front, emplaced in woods while you charge across an open plain.

If you go for the northern VP you can hold down their whole force with a big flanking manoeuvre across the top of the north VP and to the left of their main force. Then fight downwards. Use cavalry to mop up & charge lone brigades.

A draw in Stones River is hard to play to, because whatever casualties you inflict on the first day are not counted in the balance for the second day (very frustrating) because you're forcing units from the field, not severely beating them up. On the second day I use close-range artillery to break up the brigades on the Pike defences (40 guns firing shell breaks them quick) and then capture the base of the Pike. Then I go west-north and flank around the north Pike and clear it from the top. You don't destroy the main body but you get both VPs and you aren't making a full frontal attack on the whole Pike which will cost you. I lost 33% of my Army doing this but got most of it back with the win (at 10 politics) and using the government points I won from Stones to buy 3000 men.

It's a hard battle and imo more frustrating than Sharpsburg in many ways. It's even more frustrating because being in the Western theatre, winning it gives you no advantage at Chancellorsville, except for the + morale points you will gain from the 25 govt points. Otoh, the exp I gained from fighting Fredericksburg&Stones means 23/32 infantry brigades are 2 star and 4 are 3 star.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Squadron HQ

[Wandering1]

As mentioned already, don't go in through the front. Make the walk around the left and enter the trees from the top, shooting down the two brigades in the trees to the north of the fence, along with shooting the guys on the farm fortifications in the back (they can't shoot back).

Once you claim the forest, the fence is a trap for the Union brigades, since it's not 100% cover, and you can have three brigades in the trees shooting at it. Once you whittle down the enemy units enough, you can use local superiority to knock the remaining brigades on the wall one by one. 

The second part of this battle will get easier when the next patch rolls around, since I believe it was mentioned that the fortification cover will now be directional.

[Col_Kelly]

Another way is to ignore the first day VPs and swing your 5 best brigades in the west, then straight up North. Just don't fight with them at all. In the meantime with your main line you can start to push their counter attack and inflict some damage.

At the beginning of the second phase, provided your flanking force has made it far enough north you can turn on their backs and surround them from three directions.

1. Your flanking force from the North-west

2. Your main line from the South and South-east

3. The additional troops received at the beginning of phase 2 from the North East

Just make sure you fully surround them as the AI is pretty good at escaping. If done properly you can wipe out 100% of their right wing.When the time comes to take the Pike they won't have enough men to resist your attack.

[vren55]

Another good idea is to make sure you have three full corps... then ignore the lower VP, hit the top VP, whilst making your way to the NW as fast as possible (not running, marching) Break the Union Salient around the wood/hill with your troops and then with the ones across the river, flank and take Nashville West. 

I'd be warey though... Nashville West's cover hasn't been fixed yet. SO even if y ou shoot the enemy from the rear it's not going to rout them (if they're entrenched). It's necessary to sortof do a slow, tigtening of the noose with Stones River from West to East. 

On the final day, repeat the same strategy, slowly mind you. And no charging,. that's not a good idea. Unfortunately expect the majority of your losses with this battle to come from the fact you cannot rout garrisoned units by shooting them.

 

Edit: I realize you've been playing on hard... this was on medium so... take my advice with some salt.

Edited February 6, 2017 by vren55

[Zwerty99]

My strategy is to tactically flank the southern forest in the very beginning with some of the best brigades (I used a division of 3 stars) until you can force them from the woods. The plains are your friends in this battle--you can focus fire on regiments to shatter them completely as you drive them up the field. The critical part, however, is to seize the buffer hill before the turnpikes with the 2nd/3rd corp. The best way to do this is by (again) tactically flanking them to the north and gaining a foothill in the woods. Surprisingly, artillery was nearly useless for me because of the scope and movement of the battle. I didn't try and take the turnpikes on day 1, and instead mopped up remaining union regiments that were isolated. I didn't see a significant increase in enemy troops on the second day... It really only required stretching lines to charge half-strength regiments and overpower the defenders. 

Started 52k Confeds. vs. 55k Union, so around equal strength armies. Suffered around 14k in the end while dealing over 36k on the Union. 

[Slaithium]

I need a visual LOL

[Slaithium]

OK I have been toying with it and creating strats, I got to Nashville pike and took both objectives on the first day. AND THE GAME DID NOT GIVE THE VICTORY, which is utterly frustrating and pisses me off.....

[GeneralPITA]

2 hours ago, Slaithium said:

OK I have been toying with it and creating strats, I got to Nashville pike and took both objectives on the first day. AND THE GAME DID NOT GIVE THE VICTORY, which is utterly frustrating and pisses me off.....

Did you actually hold the VPs for 30 minutes before clicking the finish button? That's usually the problem. If it's truly a bug, report with F11...but this has been addressed by the devs.

[Slaithium]

I have won battles on current campaign by controlling them, not necessarily holding them till they check mark.

[Slaithium]

Finally did it on the first day without having to go to day 2 on Stone's Rivers. Sorry it was a goal of mine.

[Pandemonium]

How do you people not have cavalry? Cavalry are so important in routing other units, capturing supplies, scouting flanks and securing rear areas- not to mention breaking exposed units when they route. I have at least one full Cav Melee unit in every division, not dragoons mind you, real saber rattling cavalry.  Sheesh.

 

EDIT: And breaking artillery, don't forget the importance of breaking enemy artillery.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Pandemonium
Additional info.

[Wandering1]

13 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

How do you people not have cavalry? Cavalry are so important in routing other units, capturing supplies, scouting flanks and securing rear areas- not to mention breaking exposed units when they route. I have at least one full Cav Melee unit in every division, not dragoons mind you, real saber rattling cavalry.  Sheesh.

 

EDIT: And breaking artillery, don't forget the importance of breaking enemy artillery.

Does one really have to ask what happens to the horses when somebody forgets to bring enough food along for the trip?

[Zwerty99]

*Enters photoshop*

 

 

1. Move around yankee flank while diverting troops in feint

2. Mop up yankee center while enemy flees onto open ground

3. Attack hill from the north while connecting with rest of army

4. If possible, move troops to cross the fords above the turnpikes 

5. Either on day 1 or 2, stretch line to attack western most vp before overrunning fortifications further east

 

Hope this visual helps--not exactly a work of art but should help give some context to what I was talking about

[A. P. Hill]

1 hour ago, Pandemonium said:

How do you people not have cavalry? Cavalry are so important in routing other units, capturing supplies, scouting flanks and securing rear areas- not to mention breaking exposed units when they route. I have at least one full Cav Melee unit in every division, not dragoons mind you, real saber rattling cavalry.  Sheesh.

 

EDIT: And breaking artillery, don't forget the importance of breaking enemy artillery.

Cavalry in the American Civil War is over rated.  

[Slaithium]

1 hour ago, Pandemonium said:

How do you people not have cavalry? Cavalry are so important in routing other units, capturing supplies, scouting flanks and securing rear areas- not to mention breaking exposed units when they route. I have at least one full Cav Melee unit in every division, not dragoons mind you, real saber rattling cavalry.  Sheesh.

 

EDIT: And breaking artillery, don't forget the importance of breaking enemy artillery.

There are different plays styles man, I play a siege crawl type army and as for killing arty units, capturing supplies, scouting, and all that other stuff you mentioned using Highly equipped skirmishers are just as effective. Also versus Calvary you out range them if they charge you 500man v 500man of each type the skirms will win because of the range disadvantage. Most of the time they will route after one volley on even vetted horse men.

 

[Zwerty99]

1 hour ago, Pandemonium said:

How do you people not have cavalry? Cavalry are so important in routing other units, capturing supplies, scouting flanks and securing rear areas- not to mention breaking exposed units when they route. I have at least one full Cav Melee unit in every division, not dragoons mind you, real saber rattling cavalry.  Sheesh.

 

EDIT: And breaking artillery, don't forget the importance of breaking enemy artillery.

If I use cavalry I only used ranged cavalry--much more versatile and can contribute to a firefight without risking being completely destroyed in some cases. However, I have a tendency with ANY cavalry to overuse them, and it sucks too much of my micro. 

[Slaithium]

6 minutes ago, Zwerty99 said:

*Enters photoshop*

 

 

1. Move around yankee flank while diverting troops in feint

2. Mop up yankee center while enemy flees onto open ground

3. Attack hill from the north while connecting with rest of army

4. If possible, move troops to cross the fords above the turnpikes 

5. Either on day 1 or 2, stretch line to attack western most vp before overrunning fortifications further east

 

Hope this visual helps--not exactly a work of art but should help give some context to what I was talking about

Thanks that is great and thanks for the effort. I tinkered and tinkered with it, I manged to figure out a strategy where I just by pass the entire army with the first corps and rush them into Nashville Pike before the Union gets there and take up cover where they normally defend. So It cuts them off and prevents them from having fortification buff. So It puts me on the defensive which musket warfare playing the D gives you a advantage. I just hold while the two hills get pounded. Still take heavy casualties but if the battle went any longer I am sure I could of annihilated the whole army given I had 8 arty pieces right there on the node with infantry in front of it. And them trying to get in there holes or trying to attack.

[Zwerty99]

Just now, Slaithium said:

Thanks that is great and thanks for the effort. I tinkered and tinkered with it, I manged to figure out a strategy where I just by pass the entire army with the first corps and rush them into Nashville Pike before the Union gets there and take up cover where they normally defend. So It cuts them off and prevents them from having fortification buff. So It puts me on the defensive which musket warfare playing the D gives you a advantage. I just hold while the two hills get pounded. Still take heavy casualties but if the battle went any longer I am sure I could of annihilated the whole army given I had 8 arty pieces right there on the node with infantry in front of it. And them trying to get in there holes or trying to attack.

No problem. Im surprised you used artillery so much--I completely disregarded mine as it couldn't keep up with my infantry onslaught *insert booming laugh* 

The visual is, of course, my personal way of playing. The wall of text from earlier just wasn't doing it for me

[Slaithium]

5 minutes ago, Zwerty99 said:

No problem. Im surprised you used artillery so much--I completely disregarded mine as it couldn't keep up with my infantry onslaught *insert booming laugh* 

The visual is, of course, my personal way of playing. The wall of text from earlier just wasn't doing it for me

We all play and stratagize differently, but It helped though I will try it in my next play though. Yea I am partial to artillery and center all my corps around it, expect one it is a light corps for fast moving. Lot of skirms and Calvary and small brigades us it as a flanking or reserve army in certain grand battles.

But the battle on hard mode that I am stuck on right now is RIO, the trip vetted calv charge on the starting 3 brigades and arty you get wipes them off the planet before they can fire a single volley. And there is like 6 brigades of them it is nuts and have no clue what I can do. Tried placing my dudes in parts of the map, hell retreated them back to wait on the reinforcing army to get there. Still nothing, I really I mean that screams re-work to me. Or it could be a another stones river I am going to have to figure out.

[Zwerty99]

5 minutes ago, Slaithium said:

We all play and stratagize differently, but It helped though I will try it in my next play though. Yea I am partial to artillery and center all my corps around it, expect one it is a light corps for fast moving. Lot of skirms and Calvary and small brigades us it as a flanking or reserve army in certain grand battles.

But the battle on hard mode that I am stuck on right now is RIO, the trip vetted calv charge on the starting 3 brigades and arty you get wipes them off the planet before they can fire a single volley. And there is like 6 brigades of them it is nuts and have no clue what I can do. Tried placing my dudes in parts of the map, hell retreated them back to wait on the reinforcing army to get there. Still nothing, I really I mean that screams re-work to me. Or it could be a another stones river I am going to have to figure out.

I sympathize with you on this one. Rio is... interesting, to say the least. Next time I come across it I'm going to try and retreat immediately to wait to join up with arriving corp. 4 brigades is not enough--I think the best way to minimize casualties is avoid combat until the last possible second, conquering vp with minutes to spare. Its similar to the cavalry raid defense in the union campaign (can't remember name) except for the openness of it all, which actually increases difficulty. I wouldn't bring any cavalry either because it will just get destroy when countercharging these elites.  

Edit: I realize you talked about retreating but I still think it's the best option (just pre-empting a response)

Edited February 7, 2017 by Zwerty99

[Slaithium]

5 minutes ago, Zwerty99 said:

I sympathize with you on this one. Rio is... interesting, to say the least. Next time I come across it I'm going to try and retreat immediately to wait to join up with arriving corp. 4 brigades is not enough--I think the best way to minimize casualties is avoid combat until the last possible second, conquering vp with minutes to spare. Its similar to the cavalry raid defense in the union campaign (can't remember name) except for the openness of it all, which actually increases difficulty. I wouldn't bring any cavalry either because it will just get destroy when countercharging these elites.  

hopefully the Devs will rework it some because where you/I they will follow and destroy you. There like nukes on legs, virtually unwinnable unless the AI bugs out or something. Because you will loose 5k men just dealing with the calv alone.

[Zwerty99]

5 minutes ago, Slaithium said:

hopefully the Devs will rework it some because where you/I they will follow and destroy you. There like nukes on legs, virtually unwinnable unless the AI bugs out or something. Because you will loose 5k men just dealing with the calv alone.

I don't know the history behind it but from a gameplay perspective, there should probably be a higher reward or less elite opponents. Or perhaps the game could give players pre-set troops (like in shiloh and salem church)