As the game slowly dies

[Magnum]

A fundamental of games that both (or all) sides have an EQUAL chance of winning at the onset, well unless or course, you are in a casino.

The ability of one Nation, Clan, or group to War Bomba another nation WITHOUT any defense violates this for an example.

----

In games that last (Baseball, Lacrosse, Rugby etc.) both sides have an equal chances to become the victor and equal chances to be the "victim" ---- NA is fundamentally about setting up the "game, instance, or happening" in such a way that YOUR team has a much better chance of becoming "not" the victim.

A certain amount of unevenness in gear is exciting since it gives you something to "overcome" ---- but it reaches a point where when you get ganked for the "last" time - it really is the "LAST" time. I now know two players now who have left the game for the last time (so they swear) because of this unsustainable advantage that the gankers (Ambush Attackers) get.

The drag on the game is pretty strong ......

[Fenris]

3 minutes ago, Magnum said:

A fundamental of games that both (or all) sides have an EQUAL chance of winning at the onset, well unless or course, you are in a casino.

The ability of one Nation, Clan, or group to War Bomba another nation WITHOUT any defense violates this for an example.

----

In games that last (Baseball, Lacrosse, Rugby etc.) both sides have an equal chances to become the victor and equal chances to be the "victim" ---- NA is fundamentally about setting up the "game, instance, or happening" in such a way that YOUR team has a much better chance of becoming "not" the victim.

A certain amount of unevenness in gear is exciting since it gives you something to "overcome" ---- but it reaches a point where when you get ganked for the "last" time - it really is the "LAST" time. I now know two players now who have left the game for the last time (so they swear) because of this unsustainable advantage that the gankers (Ambush Attackers) get.

The drag on the game is pretty strong ......

Excuse me...What are you trying to say?

[Magnum]

1 minute ago, Fenris said:

Excuse me...What are you trying to say?

No Trolling allowed ....

[Fenris]

1 minute ago, Magnum said:

No Trolling allowed ....

I am serious.

[Magnum]

Well, thanks for the bump then.

[jodgi]

Magnum. 

I have memories of constructive things you've said in the past, not that long ago.

Your slide into clickbait title, simple whining and passive aggressiveness went fast.

(Please come back)

[Sir William Hargood]

I agree with Mangum insofar as I do believe that the current ROE protect the antagonist in the game...and unfairly so.

There cannot be any risk free rogueing, especially right in front of the Nation Capital.

The practice of hiding in the Battle Result Screen or in a Logged Out State and then logging in, when the call is made often by a spy alt, and attacking the poor victim with the benefit of an instantly locked battle instance and then thereafter having the benefit of the sanctuary of the Battle Result Screen again until wash and repeat, is simply put is darn right ridiculous.

Currently there are Star Wars mechanics in the game which simply has no place in the 18th century maritime world. Focus guys...how reasonable is it to have risk free ganking outside a national capital...and I don't buy the excuse: "hey we need PVP!!!"...that is NOT pvp, that is screwed up mechanics that WILL KILL the game....PERIOD!!!!!!!!

The game needs to cater for all, the casual and hard-core gamer, the lone PVPer, the Crafter, the RVRer, the Port Battler, the Rogue, the Privateer and the Merchant and Trader alike.

All these must have risks and rewards. If one of the above is protected above the other then the game will be imbalanced and will run the risk of petering out.

Thing is if the risks and the costs are too high the waters will become vacant, this counts for both the predator and the prey. Currently there is an imbalance. I agree there is a need for more active PVP, but it has to be fun first to work, for both sides.

Personally I love the idea of PVP zones where a special currency may be obtained, and only though PVP, with which you can purchase special upgrades or maybe special exception ship writs. That will give you your fix for pvp...and equal fight pvp too.

And if you insist on ganking outside a national capital, you cannot have protected species mechanics, there has to be risks to that...unlike at present...and I don't even want to start with RVR port battle "National Effort" hostility nuking....that mechanic has simply back fired:

Refer to this for a better solution:

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sir William Hargood

[Vaan De Vries]

Oh my. This whining about gankers again...

Honestly, do you try to "gank" someone yourself?

With all the forts, insane amount of AI fleets (in Danish, Sweden and French waters you can found a spot from which you can at the same time see 5-6 AI fleets constantly) Ai fleet you can take with you.

If you got attacked "right in fron of you capital" - just sail to the freeking fort!

4 hours ago, Sir William Hargood said:

The practice of hiding in the Battle Result Screen or in a Logged Out State and then logging in, when the call is made often by a spy alt, and attacking the poor victim with the benefit of an instantly locked battle instance and then thereafter having the benefit of the sanctuary of the Battle Result Screen again until wash and repeat, is simply put is darn right ridiculous.

 

What poor victims are you talking about?

The PVE "admiral" saiing on lone 1st rates and whining they are capped by 1-2 frigates? Well, If they don't know how to sail a 1st rate than maybe they shouldn't sail one alone. Cause if you search this forum you find enough sccreenshots with lone SOL demasting all the frigates sanking a couple of them and then just sailing away. Because her captain knows what he is doing. Yeasterday I was escorting in my Pavel a friend in an Indiaman and we got "ganked" by a couple of french frigates. One of them lost 2 of his masts on my second salvo! Yes, due to stupid repair mechanic he was able to repair his sails back to 85% but only to retreat after that.

 

Ok, maybe you are talking about some poor traders in LGV, Well, I never was caught in my green capped from AI LGV. My friend once was chased by 2 Surprises, 2 Trinc and renommee and he escaped in OW (without forts, AI fleets and etc). It's all about keeping attention and knowing sailing profiles of different ships. LGV, for example is capable of outrunning almost anything except fot Rattlesnake maybe. But I don't see a lot of rattlesnakes out there "ganking".

 

Finally, maybe you are talking about lone Indiamans? Well, I would say that all "ganking friendly" regions are well known and if you sailing in a lone Indiaman in these regions you have nobody to blame but yourself. Don't be shy - ask for a convoy. Community in this game is very helpful - you will find someone to help you.

 

I am playing for both sides. I too need to trade and gather resources and build ships in distant regions. Typically I am playing alone or together with a friend. When we are done with trading we like to hunt near Carricou and Hat Island. We never attack players in brigs with low rank. About traders I can say - it's very hard to catch the one that knows what he is doing. Current ROE with forts, towers, AI fleets is favorable for skilled traders. 

About PVP - we never gank low-level players in brigs. But I've been in several battles with french where we fought 3 vs 4 or 3 vs 2 and they were easier to won than some 2 vs 2 battles against skilled players. Had awesome 2 vs 2 against 2 Pirates on a Frigates (we were on 2 surprises) yesterday. My friend was almost sunk (less then 10% hp on both sides) but we we able to cap one Frigate and sank another. Did anybody complained about ganking? No - everybody was thankfull for a chance to have a nice Frigate battle. 

 

So please stop whining about ganking. There are several problems with this game but it's definitely not the problem of ganking or crafting.. 

From my point of view it's the problem of game being too EASY and allowing players to reach admiral rank and being able to sail 1st rates without knowing how to sail them. After that they are getting "ganked" and start whining..

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Sven Silberbart]

4 minutes ago, Vaan De Vries said:

So please stop whining about ganking. There are several problems with this game but it's definitely not the problem of ganking or crafting..

agree

[Vaan De Vries]

13 hours ago, Magnum said:

 ..... I didn't like some players getting access to OP gear while others did not.

 

What OP gear are you talking about? 

Agamemnons? I never participated in any event, I am not in clan. And yet I collected all needed resources and labor contracts, asked in a nation (Dutch) chat for an agamemnon to be built and I got myself one with British refit without paying for anything  except for the mats. 

And soon my friend will get Strong Hull La Ocean pretty much the same way. Collect all needed mats and ask nicely in a nation chat.

Or do you think you should be given good ship in PVP OW sandbox game without moving even one finger?

 

[Hethwill]

Vaan is a reasonable fellow with a objective overview on how the game plays and what need improving rasther than whining and wanting to see it removed out of spite or unwilling to risk a challenge.

Well done sir. Thank you. Snappy salute.

[Hethwill]

It is a struggle between change and Comfort.

I want to test different things until release.

Land in Port battles will allow us to mimic this

[Sir William Hargood]

2 hours ago, Vaan De Vries said:

Oh my. This whining about gankers again...So please stop whining about ganking. There are several problems with this game but it's definitely not the problem of ganking or crafting.. 

Will you please read my post carefully... Ganking or Raiding is part of this game...its inevitable...I have no problem with that...but if you abuse the mechanics by which you magically cloak yourself in some Star Wars Cloak mechanism (yeah like this has a place in a 18th century Naval Game) between Carlisle and KPR and on top of that have the benefit of an instantly locked battle instance...how on god's earth is that fair? Then to add insult injury you hide in the Result Screen guaranteed protection from a reprisal fleet...IN FRONT OF AN ENEMY CAPITAL...is there no sanctity in this game? And there you go BLEATING again...justifying an obviously f@cked up mechanic.

What I said was: "....All these must have risks and rewards. If one of the above is protected above the other then the game will be imbalanced and will run the risk of petering out...........And if you insist on ganking outside a national capital, you cannot have protected species mechanics, there has to be risks to that...unlike at present..."

Did I ever object to ganking....NO....do I have a problem with the mechanics pandering to its protection and exclusivity? (because of the constant bleaters demanding its protection...) HELL YES ...OMG, you just see the word Gank you go full-on BLEAT...along with the BLEAT Clan...and I thought I presented a reasonable assessment of current screwed ROE.

[Sir William Hargood]

The silent masses avoid the forums because of the toxicity one garners from reasonable assessments posted here...good luck

[Vaan De Vries]

12 minutes ago, Sir William Hargood said:

Will you please read my post carefully... Ganking or Raiding is part of this game...its inevitable...I have no problem with that...but if you abuse the mechanics by which you magically cloak yourself in some Star Wars Cloak mechanism (yeah like this has a place in a 18th century Naval Game) between Carlisle and KPR and on top of that have the benefit of an instantly locked battle instance...how on god's earth is that fair? Then to add insult injury you hide in the Result Screen guaranteed protection from a reprisal fleet...IN FRONT OF AN ENEMY CAPITAL...is there no sanctity in this game? And there you go BLEATING again...justifying an obviously f@cked up mechanic.

What I said was: "....All these must have risks and rewards. If one of the above is protected above the other then the game will be imbalanced and will run the risk of petering out...........And if you insist on ganking outside a national capital, you cannot have protected species mechanics, there has to be risks to that...unlike at present..."

Did I ever object to ganking....NO....do I have a problem with the mechanics pandering to its protection and exclusivity? (because of the constant bleaters demanding its protection...) HELL YES ...OMG, you just see the word Gank you go full-on BLEAT...along with the BLEAT Clan...and I thought I presented a reasonable assessment of current screwed ROE.

Why aren't you then objecting about Star Wars national chat mechanic giving you possibility to organise revenge fleets? During real age of sail there was no possibility to ask friends in nation chat or in TS to come and revenge your pour soul to THIS PARTICULAR COORDINATES. But I am not hearing anyone saying "let's remove chats from game and ban everybody using TS". Nobody says "let's remove TP between outposts (not even Star Wars - more like Star TRAK technology) so the friends of this trader won't be able to jump through half the map and organise revenge fleet".

During real age of sail there would be NO REVENGE Fleet at all cause everybody will know a trader been lost maybe in 1-2 month time. So technically you attacked someone unseen - nobody was able to enter the battle and help this poor ganked captain - you are free to go. You don't have to deal with revenge fleet summoned here by Star Wars chat mechanic.

Also I was the one to propose restriction to stay in BS or logoff when sailing in enemy region territory. I am not against it. BUT crying and whining that ganking is like the biggest problem of this game is just laughable. It's really hard to get ganked in this game in its current meta. It's just people used to single-players games or WOW like games don't quite understand what a PVP sandbox is.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Hethwill]

I agree with you on certain conditions being that the rest of the Conquest remains the same.

I am looking more to a asymmetrical wargame where this conditions ca nbe fully explored

At the moment we have a nice Trafalgar system, which is fun. But why not try something else ? IIRC from the announcement patch note the PBs will have land and control points right ?

[Sir William Hargood]

17 minutes ago, Vaan De Vries said:

During real age of sail there would be NO REVENGE Fleet at all cause everybody will know a trader been lost maybe in 1-2 month time. So technically you attacked someone unseen - nobody was able to enter the battle and help this poor ganked captain - you are free to go. You don't have to deal with revenge fleet summoned here by Star Wars chat mechanic.

Sir, you are missing my point entirely. ROE need refining. They're one sided atm. Incidentally the true distances I was referring to where ships are attacked to the National Port is a mere 25km, that's within actual visual range on a clear day, reasonably within 3-5 real-time sailing hours on a sailing ship, scaled up for the game? In-game one covers that distance comfortably within 2 minutes. You draw your own conclusions. And you expect an entirely risk free jump (not wanting to use the work gank coz that appears to be a trigger) in this zone?

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sir William Hargood

[Hethwill]

There are enough reports of privateers, buccaneers and age of sail navy captains regarding horizon spotting and none goes even close to 25km on a clear day.

What you must think is that we, players, have to compromisse between 2 things:

1. If we are at port screen our ships are not ready to sail.

2. If we are in the OW just anchored near the port we are at large and ready to sail.

Finally you wouldn't receive real time communication that a ship was under attack unless you were there, in that right moment, in that same area.

It is a game and RoE needs refining but definitely not changing it to a no-risk no-challenge mechanic.

From the announced patch notes you see some changes coming that serve both worlds.

Let's hold fast

[Vaan De Vries]

Currently in ROE you have 2 circles system representing the approximate distance you can cover in 2 hours real sailing time after which battle will be ended anyways. So it you are not in this bigger circle - you won't be able to help attacked ship OR to pursue an attacker. This is not a bad ROE - this is bad understanding of limitation of OW/instance battle systems. 

On one side we have people suggesting to introduce "warp tunnels", but on the other side we have people that can't quite comprehend that "seeing ship attacked" in OW still means you will have to sail 3+ hour of real time to reach the battle place. And WHEN battle already commence and you are able to spend 2 mins sailing to the battle place in OW it doesn't mean you have right to attack the ship getting out of battle, because to reach the battle place in real world you would have to spend 3+ hours sailing and attacker would be long gone.

So it's really revenge fleets that are using Star Wars jumping technology. Cause in real world - if you are outside of the tagging circle - you won't have ANY chance to arrive at the battle place before battle ends. Attacker is free to flee anywhere.

Perhaps to make things equal everybody wanting to attack ship coming out of battle should spend 2+ hours just sailing in empty sea - perfect imitation of what it would take to reach battle in reality. Only after 2 hour sail will you be allowed to attack anyone. Let's see home many "Avengers" will accept such mechanic.

It's quite funny how many think that 2 min sailing in OW (instead of 3+ hour sailing it would take in battle instance) to coordinates communicated to them in chat or TS should give them right to attack someone they would never caught in real life.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Sir William Hargood]

Your forensic analysis is admirable indeed,  however it does little to justify its impact on the playability of the game. Simply put its protective mechanics for the attackers whichever way you dance around the definitions.

The fact is its a game with variable scales, OW and Battle Instance Scales none of which are true. You say the Large Circle is 2 hours real time sailing...this is most certainly not correct in the in-battle scale... and quite impossible so for the open world time scale ... so is that then a 3rd time scale?

Suffice to say the variable scales are irrelevant and one must look then at the impact on gameplay....for it is after all a game...

[Vaan De Vries]

Agree completely, hence I welcome the return of the ability to enter the battle after some time in next patch.

But still the existence of revenge fleets is no better than BS camping. Let's just say if you wasn't there in OW to see battle commencing with your own yeas you won't be able to get to the battle place before attacker is long gone. Period. So if attacker is willing to engage revenge fleet which Teleported to the battle place - he is welcome to do so. If he is not willing - he can use his chance to slip away.

The main thing I am advocating - everyone is responsible for himself being ganked and shouldn't rely upon the possibility of revenge fleet camping attacker outside. If you want to be protected during your trade run- ask for convoy, stick to slow AI fleet or take your chance in a fast trader like LGV. Or better introduce patrols of your territory. It works quite well by brushing gankers fleets aside or battling with them and clearing OW area for traders. It's a sandbox - if people want to stop gankers - they just have to work together and stop them - not asking devs to introduce new mechanics to make the game even more carebear than it is now.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Jerome]

People who can't handle open world PvP should not play this game. Far more players quit this game when BR restrictions were introduced then quitters that can't handle losing.

[Jerome]

As for "I'm front of the capital", holy hell we have to sail twenty minutes to get there and you want mechanics stacked against us?

[Sir William Hargood]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

There are enough reports of privateers, buccaneers and age of sail navy captains regarding horizon spotting and none goes even close to 25km on a clear day.

Lets go to the science: If Eye Height  = 1.5 m, then Horizon Distance = e4 * sqrt(1.27*1.5) = 1.38e4 m = 13.8 km = 7,5 Nautical Miles

As a general rule, if visibility is good and you are at the waterline, you can see the mast of a ship come over the horizon at 12 miles and the whole ship at about 9 miles. If your vantage point is higher you can see farther.  At 100ft up horizon is @ 11,4 Nautical Miles out; 110ft up @ 120 nm; 120ft up @ 12,5 nm; 130ft up @ 13 nm; 140ft up @ 13,5nm      Note these distances are to the horizon visible from a given vantage point height. Note: 25km = 13,5 Nautical Miles

Therefore it is safe to say any vessel 25km off will be visible from the masthead of a Frigate or larger ship on a clear day.

[Sir William Hargood]

1 hour ago, Vaan De Vries said:

But still the existence of revenge fleets is no better than BS camping.

Agreed, that is why I would suggest that the relative ship position achieved in battle instance be transferred to Open world when the instance ends. Enabling a general chase and escape option to those in battle.

So if a player wishes to he can continue running in battle instance for 1½ hours. The "running" ends when the battle timer runs out and not necessarily when "Battle Ended". The player choses his point of departure .

When battle instance ends his relative position gained in battle gets transferred to the open world. This also enables running fleets to "star burst" escape. There is no longer the need to hide in battle result screen afraid of revenge fleets. You can plan your escape....much more realistic and immersive.

This also gives the revenge fleet challenging but not impossible counter measures. Generally those types of attackers have faster ships anyway and virtually guaranteed escape. I never understood the "all pop back into open world" in exactly the same "as tagged" position. I don't believe the relative differential between open world and battle speed scales are an issue...actually the to the contrary.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sir William Hargood