15 min ROE - ASAP!

[Mrdoomed]

6 minutes ago, Ser_Slack said:

It's true to an extent no doubt. Its never going to make everyone happy. And for your style of play I could see why you'd want insta-close. For my style I don't. Everytime I'd sail out with friends on a hunt I'm fully committed to losing my ship in battle as long as we had a good scrape. And we got it alot of times. Sometimes it was hilarious because under some of the iterations of ow tagging (see BR limiting from months ago) the revenge fleet could never get rid of us. I'm not sure what the answer is but either way some people won't be happy.

They really need to try the circle thing with no or low ai drawn in. 

You guys CAN all still play like you did it just takes a slower pace,which you may not like, but when i do sail with someone we just have to keep our speed close in open world then the tag ship heards the enemy into range of the slow ship.

Right now hardly anyone is playing because of thecircle but for 2 different reasons hahahaha

[Rramsha]

People forget that to maintain any basic form of reality to the age of sail there can only be two types of fleets and they work with the current ROE.

1. Scout Fleet - Fleet stays separated to cover large amounts of ocean, with the side effect being that engagements will be with smaller player numbers as not all ships will be able to join the battle due to the distance.

2. Firepower Fleet - The Fleet sails together to make sure that all members join the battle instance together and in good locations, allowing the fleet to utilize its organization and fire power at the expense of no longer being able to cover huge amounts of ocean.

 

Can you mix the two types of fleets? to an extent Yes, but you have to always realize that any time you spread out to cover more ocean you may end up in a battle with limited reinforcements its the nature of the age of sail.

 

Unfortunately I have realized that the development of this game has finally reached a point where casual play with a stable game world is not really possible because the game changes and is modified at such an accelerated state. All game mechanics will continue to change as the games content continues to expand. It is the ROE that gets the blame while its truly the fault of the ever expanding and of course unfinished mechanics which are truly to blame. That is the nature of game development I fear.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rramsha

[Mrdoomed]

49 minutes ago, Rramsha said:

People forget that to maintain any basic form of reality to the age of sail there can only be two types of fleets and they work with the current ROE.

1. Scout Fleet - Fleet stays separated to cover large amounts of ocean, with the side effect being that engagements will be with smaller player numbers as not all ships will be able to join the battle due to the distance.

2. Firepower Fleet - The Fleet sails together to make sure that all members join the battle instance together and in good locations, allowing the fleet to utilize its organization and fire power at the expense of no longer being able to cover huge amounts of ocean.

 

Can you mix the two types of fleets? to an extent Yes, but you have to always realize that any time you spread out to cover more ocean you may end up in a battle with limited reinforcements its the nature of the age of sail.

 

Unfortunately I have realized that the development of this game has finally reached a point where casual play with a stable game world is not really possible because the game changes and is modified at such an accelerated state. All game mechanics will continue to change as the games content continues to expand. It is the ROE that gets the blame while its truly the fault of the ever expanding and of course unfinished mechanics which are truly to blame. That is the nature of game development I fear.

I agree .  i like the new roe and do not have any issues trying to keep small fast and big slow ships together to join the battle. Has been fine since first day.

My and our and many people only issue with the new roe is that when youtag a enemy you will pull in 5, 7, 10, 20 ai ships with him almost every time and since the new roe we have had hardly any battles we could stay and fight or that where anywhere closer to fun or realistic . 

Even our targets have said they agree with us running and that the friendly ai fleets and ships are just ruining the open world.  If you want a god fight you and the target have to both agree via pm to move way way way out to sea .  Yeah thats so immersive . 

The new roe is not the problem for dead servers the ai ships being pulled in is.

Also i agree somewhat with Wraith about the econ. I dont think it needs to revert to the old style but more of a hybrid between them both along with crafting of ships. ive got a good idea how to do it but im not wasting 20 minites typing it all out because the devs are going to do what they want.

Wraith i also prefer the new rvr system WAY WAY WAY more than that stupid flag bum rush system. I think the hostility points are the way to go BUT I would have implemented them difrently but again not worth my time to type it out.

I think the biggest population killer problem right now is the ai ships being brought in.

[Mrdoomed]

I have a wonderful way to create the hostility on a much more easy and faster way but its not worth the effort to explain because the devs do what they want .        

I will say this, hostility should be raised by another means too, and that is the presence of enemy ships near a port. Not just sitting on the outskirts but in visual range. One ship alone would take days to trigger it BUT if lots of ships where there ,  it would increase just at a better rate. couple that with attacking the ai ships and missions and pvp it would be reletivaly easy to trigger a port battle. Blockade tbe port by sitting in its harbor will increase it more. These types of triggers would be posted in nation chat that ships are blockading port xx and large fleets are patrolling port xx.

The pvp that COULD come from that alone if people wouldn't be cowards would epic sized battles thatmany want. winning battles helps increase the hostility till the port can be attacked.

Since this makes it prety easy to trigger a port battle the battles would have to be limited to a certain amount spread over 24 hours to give all a chance . 

Anywsys that is a part of my idea but lime i said it wont matter.

[Mrdoomed]

23 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I wholeheartedly agree, and honestly, with a finer grained system of detecting where hostility is rising/falling (give us a damn heatmap already) I would argue that we might remove AI hostility missions with open timers entirely and replace them with hostility patrol zones where PvP'ers meet for war. We could supplement those zones with non-open timer missions for newbs and people not looking for that type of action, but the general idea of loiter and patrol I think is a good one.

Yes. Players blockade a port or sit in its "zone of control " so to speak .  Hostility begins to raise without a large alert BUT say once it reaches 25% then the alarm sounds and a red heat bloom could apear near the ports being blockaded and an alert would post in red letters in nation chat. PLEASE NO ALERTS ACROSS THE SCREEN ha ha ha thoseare so annoying . 

All playerd then decide to fight or not etc. it could generate huge pvp battles it could generate small engagements if hunters tag ships comming to defend etc. pirates of course would stil be off doing there thing.

The only thing i would say must be done is a limit on ports capturable per 24 hours. With it being much easier to trigger a battle i wouldnt want to see one clan just run the table at midnight.  Say limit to 3 ports that can be captured every 8 hours and the top 3 hostility points being the 3 eligible for a attack. You can still have unlimited ports being triggered but the top 3 are only open to attack.

Of course the map will change drastically the first week as high population factions claim all they can but it will then turn into real borders to be fought on .

I have no idea why this plus my other ideas wont be put in the rvr part of the game. I see no exploit or way to abuse it, it gives all players equal chances to participate whether they are hard core or casual.

And if the ai fleets are adjusted to a much more appropriate level so you dont pull in 50 every attack then the players triggering hostility just by being in a zone of control will attack ai ships to speed up the process thus giving constant action either vs people or bots . 

Anyone see any real negitive to this method ? 

[Rramsha]

This system  will just end up with blobs of players camping and sitting in front of a port.

On the other hand, I feel that if you come within visual distance of any enemy port that enemy port should report your sighting to the nation. Maybe enemy AI ships once they pull into a friendly port can also report your position.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rramsha

[Mrdoomed]

Well there of course at first the race to capture as many as they can but thats gonna happen now just slower. once brders are established then it will work better.

[Havelock]

Maybe we could make it possible to have a 5 min join timer, but like in PBs the battle wont start in these 5 mins? Then we also wouldnt have to spawn at ridiculously far range. Combine it with my earlier post to have a max BR difference of x1.2, battles would even out automatically. I think waiting max 5 mins is worth a good fight, considering atm were roaming the OW for hours these days to find ANY PvP.

Or we make it 4 mins, and then the lower BR side has 1 min to decide to reject the battle if the enemy has more than a x1,5BR advantage. All my proposals have the goal for less ganking and more fair fights, even tho a lot of people seem to enjoy hammering enemies in 1v5s :/

 

For traders some rules might be different, attacking them should instantly close the battle like it is now.

[fox2run]

Whatever The mecanisms suggested we need Easy Access to pvp and duras. This game is too dull to survive...

Edited November 14, 2016 by fox2run

[Hethwill]

"Social perk will return for testing in another form - allowing entry to the weaker side until the battle is balanced. "

 

[Hethwill]

Just now, Wraith said:

Yeah.. I can't say I'm excited by this. I feel that if you're hunting in a pack (and alternatively taking the risks of sailing alone) you should still be able to benefit from WYSIWYG combat.  :-/

I'm not. But I understand the "need" to cater for a solid fence with two grazing grounds.

( I will risk burning my hands saying that it will not be used that much and we will still read a lot of... 15 mins was much better *wink*... )

[Mrdoomed]

16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Perhaps, I'm willing to test it to see. Anything that brings people back and excites them to PvP is a good change. We'll just see how many of those lone Buc and Bellona captains are going to like our spread out Rattler Gang traps again.

So True.  the same xx people didn't like long timers , short timers , no timers, BR timers etc. Seems like a common theme . 

 

When will devs realize certain people want zero ow pvp but dont have the stones to say that. Devs stop listening to squeeky wheels.

[Edward Canaday]

On 11/10/2016 at 1:45 PM, Ser_Slack said:

Tell me Hodo whats the difference between a group of guys/gals sailing together and ATTEMPTING to find pvp and a  "gank fleet". Having a few runners scouting for the larger, slower ships was almost always fun. It actually took some teamwork and tactics. Now we ain't got shit. You wanna sail by yourself in your gdamn mercury or suprise more power to you but this is an MMO. If you don't band together with people your always gonna be at a disadvantage our aim was always be victors and not victims. Other nations can't get their shit together (see Britain) and thats our fault? How much resistance is Britain getting now in the regions its taking? Somehow your nation couldn't get SOLs made under the OLD crafting rules and now thats gonna change and we're gonna see a large uptick in PVP? Ya, no.

And as for taking ships after reset under the old system, we have aussies in our clan (glad to have them), I suppose they just shouldn't play and just pve. Britain had it's share of Aussies in the past you just couldn't retain them. Not our fault again.

Whats gonna be the draw for people when this game goes into official release? If we can't even get people who have bought the game to come back and check out the changes (and retain them) what makes you think we'll have fresh blood? We've talked about this alot on TS. What we got is what we got there's not gonna be a huge influx of players. Not gonna happen.

Granted, I'm willing to concede that a wipe on the near horizon has people not wanting to even log on just to have their shit disappear soon. Not worth the time. I don't want to play 4+ hours every evening anymore in the current system.

 

This really gets back to "I want the game my way, not your way".  It's a mentality that all of us have, but I think some things should be considered.  While it is a Game first and foremost, it's also a simulation of a particular time in our history.  You're running into a battle between Arcade and sim, which is going to be rocky until we hit a balance between the two.  I personally like the two circle system, because it allows me to play solo.  I shouldn't have to join a clan or sail around in large groups just because you want to.  While it is an MMO, it's not WoW.  There are "Raids" in the Port battles, but not everything revolves around playing with other people.  In general, I like to do MY thing in a game, not something that some group of other people want to do.  There are many people just like that.  We're a little anti-social (we are playing a game on a computer), and just want to enjoy a good game.  

You can still sail in large groups, you just can't ambush other lone players or smaller groups without them having some kind of warning.  I spent the weekend in battles with other lone captains.  It was great.  No one jumped in after the battle started, and it was a pretty even distribution of power between the two sides.  That's what this game is (I personally believe) all about.  A contest between Naval captains to determine who is the better sailor and gunner.  Your version of the game is just about who is more popular.  

 

So (again, this is only my opinion) if you want to get in a big battle, use one of the MANY mechanics designed around large fleet actions.  But for the rest of us, let us have our Cruises and smaller actions between ships.  I know this is a tired and worn comment, but it rings true:  Age of Sail fleet actions were fairly infrequent.  They were incredibly costly and usually cost hundreds of lives for a primarily moral victory.  Ship to ship actions happened much more frequently, and didn't involve massive fleet backup sailing (At speeds unheard of in those days) in to crush the enemy ship(s).

 

[Hethwill]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

And we go back to the get tagged, think you have a even fight, then 10min later 24 1st rates plop in right on top of you.  Yeah... fun.

What is your point ?

The RoE is here to stay. Fine with us, it is a great RoE and the best so far.

Social comes back for all the others that are not fine with it. How is it balanced ? Equal BR. I bet the socialites will be hating it but you know what it might just the right recipe for them to start enjoying proper PvP and build up their confidence.

Fleets waiting outside is not new, it has been here forever. It is a fact of "life". So you keep smashing the wall. Is not coming down as much as spawn camping is never eradicated from a FPS, go figure.

[Salty Dog.]

15 minutes is a bad idea, 2 minutes was a bit short but doable.  I would suggest 2 minutes / 5 minutes (with Social perk) or a system that a battle remains open for 15 minutes or until the weaker battle Rating is within 200 points.  

Edited November 14, 2016 by Salty Dog PVP1

[TrackTerror]

I would very much like to try the 15 minutes timer, It has obvious drawbacks but with a smaller server pop this might have to be done in order to keep the game fun. When the server pop increases this should be reviewed and perhaps lowered, if server pop hit fantastic heights then I am personally ok with instant close.

Right now the instant close with all it's merits does not actually make the game more fun, rather the opposite.

It is important to remember that timers and such does not automatically scale with the server population/mapsize/etc which makes this a variable that have to be reviewed and alterered on each few patches depending on current health of server since player density has lots to do with what would be a good implementation, we all want to have fair fights but having fun and actually getting into fights are far more important.
 

[Mrdoomed]

11 minutes ago, TrackTerror said:

I would very much like to try the 15 minutes timer, It has obvious drawbacks but with a smaller server pop this might have to be done in order to keep the game fun. When the server pop increases this should be reviewed and perhaps lowered, if server pop hit fantastic heights then I am personally ok with instant close.

Right now the instant close with all it's merits does not actually make the game more fun, rather the opposite.

It is important to remember that timers and such does not automatically scale with the server population/mapsize/etc which makes this a variable that have to be reviewed and alterered on each few patches depending on current health of server since player density has lots to do with what would be a good implementation, we all want to have fair fights but having fun and actually getting into fights are far more important.
 

When we had the long timers before it was a nightmare because every battle was open to everyone anywhere practically and it let asshole try hards who would sit in battle screens and set up massive ganks all day long or 50 players sittig in port doing nothing but waiting to gank and that waBEFORE no cooldown teleports . 

With  no cooldown teleports here is how every battle will go. You tag a ship. Entire server teleports to your battle and since you was out looking for pvp youare near enemy turf ad the battle is 25vs you.  yeah ill pass on that.

The players already are here crying about open missions not being fair because people can keep joining. Imagine every battle being open for the entre server.

Maybe like alot of players youndont care ablut solo or small groups or casual players but its just another nail in thier coffin.

[Fletch]

Some of the biggest and most  fun battles I have taken part in was during that period of the social perk, it was that feeling you never who or what was going to turn up next. I thought the 2 min timer worked well also. I don't like the current system it restricts combat too much in my opinion, its great if you like solo hunting though..

Edited November 15, 2016 by Fletch67

[Rramsha]

In general the main people who enjoyed the old timer system were those who sailed in fleets of 3 or more with smaller ships running in advance to draw players into combat.  In my opinion the old system works in a modern age space combat game, where your reinforcements can warp on top of the target once combat has engaged but in an age of sail game where speed and maneuvering are important it does not.  The funny part is that the current ROE extend out to the two minute mark drawing in ships that would have been able to join under the old system, therefore the only advantage of the old system was the fact that your reinforcements could warp onto the target/targets once in the instance.

[Hethwill]

Old Socialize perk in action.

A battle that started as a 5v5 IIRC progressed towards a massive 5v17... fun (?)... sure.

Even so some of the socialites left the battle so absurd the battles was regarding numbers and BR.

 

[Fletch]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think you also have to remember this was also in a time where you had at least three times the current server population. I'd warn against conflating mechanics with the effect that having many more opportunities for PvP available has on your perceptions of fun. I remember far more un-fun moments when Social Perk was operating and the revenging/ganking/port-camping/rabbit-holing/baiting were completely out of hand.  

So at the moment the gank fleet simply  sits outside the battle waiting for the occupants to come out rather than joining in. I see little difference. People are now using trade ships as bait to get a people into battle, then  travel and wait on the crossed swords. It all depends weather you like small battles or big battles I guess.

[Fletch]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Old Socialize perk in action.

A battle that started as a 5v5 IIRC progressed towards a massive 5v17... fun (?)... sure.

 

17 people had fun 5 didn't?

Seriously, I know it was not perfect but there was some huge open world battles went down during that time. I think its too far now in the other extreme, just my opinion.

[Rramsha]

Now I do not mind the return of the 2 minute timer if the reinforcements came in the distance and had to sail into battle, but admin stated that for this to happen they would have to remove land from battles, I much prefer the current system, that is for sure, and keep the land in the battle instance.

[Fletch]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think it depends on whether you like the majority of your battles evolving into unbalanced situations because of late joining players, where running then is the only option. Running sucks. and is a net PvP killer. Dictating your terms of engagement is a net PvP generator, and I think that's the general consensus.

That said, I think the proposed changes and implementations of BR restriction/balance may alleviate that outcome, but I still am leery of magical conjuring of opposition into the middle of battles when you thought you'd set up the perfect tag, wind positioning, and situations for a battle to be in your favor.

Just seems a bit daft that people who were  just the wrong side of a white line cannot join a battle that is raging right in front them. Instead they simply sit outside waiting.

[Mrdoomed]

17 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

So at the moment the gank fleet simply  sits outside the battle waiting for the occupants to come out rather than joining in. I see little difference. People are now using trade ships as bait to get a people into battle, then  travel and wait on the crossed swords. It all depends weather you like small battles or big battles I guess.

Ha. you acually think those same people wont be waiting to gank instead of joining in when there is a chance they will get hurt?? hahahaha what game have you been playing ? 

They are all still going to gank. youre trying to apease gankers by giving them a " fair" way to gank. Im sorry but ow any game is about ganking. The more a game prevents it the better. The battle lock  no timer is perfect. this way you only deal with one gank at a time.