'President' American 44-Gun Frigate (With Plans)

[maturin]

The bulwarks weren't really that low, were they?

[Talos]

Lower, actually. She was built with completely open quarterdeck and forecastle, with rails instead. They were often covered in weathercloths and /looked/ like bulwarks from a distance, but they really weren't. You can see that in the plans on the previous page.

[akd]

Those were plans for the class of frigates.  It does seem that Constitution was built with quarterdeck bulwarks, although her exact appearance on the day she launched is conjecture.

 

 

 

While

the designer's original draught still exists, there is much additional documentary evidence that

makes it clear that the builders did not follow the plans with exactitude. The earliest known artist's

rendering was done about 1803 by Michel Felice Cornè; the earliest model dates from 1812. But if

we cannot see her directly, we can construct a reasonably good image of her first appearance by

extrapolation from the draught, from diary and journal entries, and from newspaper articles of the

period.

 

Constitution's hull originally bore a broad yellow ocher band from the vicinity of the hawse pipes to

the quarter galleries, the outer surfaces of the gun port lids being

the same color. This band extended approximately from the level of the channels down to the top of the main wales. Below, in

the "bends," the ship was tarred; above it, including the quarterdeck bulwarks, she was painted

black. Whether or not there was decorative painting other than this on her sides is unknown, but

Cornè shows a yellow ocher "pin stripe" on the moldings at the spar deck sill level.

 

http://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/What-did-the-Constitution-look-like-when-she-was-launched-in-1797.pdf

 

Corne painting of Constitution in 1803:

huge: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Constitution1803.jpg

[Legioneod]

I sure wish the Constitution in game model had the same curves as the real Constitution. 

I've been wanting this for a very long time, the in-game Constitution doesn't look like she does in real life at least imo. She needs more tumblehome (curve) among other things.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Legioneod

[Pablo Frias]

Pretty ship. I really love the style of the american frigates built in the final ages of XVIII centruy.

[Talos]

I've been wanting this for a very long time, the in-game Constitution doesn't look like she does in real life at least imo. She needs more tumblehome (curve) among other things.

 

Don't feel too bad about it, the real life one is a hodgepodge that doesn't accurately depict the ship as intended (War of 1812). She's mostly a mix of post-war and anacronistic features.

[Cragger]

Don't feel too bad about it, the real life one is a hodgepodge that doesn't accurately depict the ship as intended (War of 1812). She's mostly a mix of post-war and anacronistic features.

 

Hull shape (other then the excessive hogging after removing her stringers) never changed. The hull especially the bow are far to slab sided and lack the proper geometry. 

[maturin]

Hull shape (other then the excessive hogging after removing her stringers) never changed. The hull especially the bow are far to slab sided and lack the proper geometry.

The placement of the lower yards is messed up to, and she never carried a spritsail.

[Legioneod]

I know they have more important things to focus on but after release I hope they fix up the inaccurate models.

[Cragger]

I know they have more important things to focus on but after release I hope they fix up the inaccurate models.

 

Well, honestly right now I hope they don't. And here is why.

 

The ship models are not done in house. As such they are contracted out. Once accepted the modelers commitment and thus payment is satisfied. So to update the Constitutions model would require a new contract and thus payment and right now the game is in dire need of funds being directed to far more important applications. 

[Legioneod]

Well, honestly right now I hope they don't. And here is why.

 

The ship models are not done in house. As such they are contracted out. Once accepted the modelers commitment and thus payment is satisfied. So to update the Constitutions model would require a new contract and thus payment and right now the game is in dire need of funds being directed to far more important applications. 

Do they not know how to edit a model? And why would they pay someone else to do it when they could do it themselves?

Also if you didn't noticed, I said they have more important things to do, that's why I said it should be after release.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Legioneod

[BungeeLemming]

I am not sure where you have that information, Cragger.

 

Ship models are made by gamelabs employees. They are modeled, textured and made ready for game.

ships such as: santissima, Victory, Bellona, Pavel, bucentaure, ingermanland, Constitution, trincomalee, brig, snow, lynx, cutter,

(these are the ones I remember out of my head there might be more and there will be more to come)

 

Now there are a few community members who model ships. Schips such as the new Santa Cecilla which is made by Ragnar hairy trousers. He also made some other models which we might see sometime in the future. Another one of ragnar's : Niagara.

There might be more 3d artists within the comunity but the devs wont tell us to keep new ships a secret until they decide to announce them.

 

So. Instead of writing half truth you  might want to inform you first hand

[Reorx Redbeard]

another of presidents sisterships. the uss Philadelpian vas destroyed in the battle of tripoli in 1804 after she ran aground. outside tripoly harbor

[Talos]

another of presidents sisterships. the uss Philadelpian vas destroyed in the battle of tripoli in 1804 after she ran aground. outside tripoly harbor

 

Sister ship only in the sense that she's another American frigate from the same era. Philadelphia was one of the public subscription frigates ordered later, designed by Josiah Fox and nearly 20 feet shorter than the heavy frigates. Officially constructed as a 44, but she only carried 38 guns. Even the Constellation and Congress, the two 38s of the initial Six Frigates, were bigger than Philly.

[Cragger]

Do they not know how to edit a model? And why would they pay someone else to do it when they could do it themselves?

Also if you didn't noticed, I said they have more important things to do, that's why I said it should be after release.

 

Because they are a small team and it's actually quite common in the industry (I worked on some of the models for IL2 Forgotten Battles, namely the F4F. Though a better model was produced and I had no qualms about him picking up the contract since I was overloaded with work). It takes a lot of time and experience to be able to model something with precision from line drawings and unless you have a dedicated graphics section for the engine you are working on (Like if you where using your own proprietary engine) it's more efficient to farm it out.

 

As far as editing a model that's not as simple as it seems. Changing geometry like that would change so many little facets of the model you'd need to do a complete repass. Parts that had been occluded due to being obscured could suddenly be revealed and create 'holes' in the model. Not to mention textures would need to be remapped. 

 

It can be done but both the financial and man power demands right now in my mind don't feel justified for where the game needs to go.

 

 

I am not sure where you have that information, Cragger.

 

Ship models are made by gamelabs employees. They are modeled, textured and made ready for game.

ships such as: santissima, Victory, Bellona, Pavel, bucentaure, ingermanland, Constitution, trincomalee, brig, snow, lynx, cutter,

(these are the ones I remember out of my head there might be more and there will be more to come)

 

Now there are a few community members who model ships. Schips such as the new Santa Cecilla which is made by Ragnar hairy trousers. He also made some other models which we might see sometime in the future. Another one of ragnar's : Niagara.

There might be more 3d artists within the comunity but the devs wont tell us to keep new ships a secret until they decide to announce them.

 

So. Instead of writing half truth you  might want to inform you first hand

 

A contracted employee is still an employee just not a permanent one. Their employment ends when the contract is fulfilled and the service accepted. So they are under no obligation to 'update' anything without a new contract. This is very common and makes logical sense in the realm of graphics especially when not using a proprietary engine. This way you don't have to keep paying an employee all the time and let graphical assets outpace their ability to be included in the application, since well you don't want to just have an employee sitting around.

 

So I ask what proof do you these models where done by full time retained staff of gamelabs? My own experience tells me otherwise, especially when it comes to the Unity Engine and assets. 

another of presidents sisterships. the uss Philadelpian vas destroyed in the battle of tripoli in 1804 after she ran aground. outside tripoly harbor

 

Talos beat me to it. Philadelphia was not designed by Humphreys and was built well before the original six frigates of the U.S. Navy.

[maturin]

So I ask what proof do you these models where done by full time retained staff of gamelabs? My own experience tells me otherwise, especially when it comes to the Unity Engine and assets.

Uh, we asked?

Cerberus was bought online, but AFAIK that's it.

And I'm gonna stop you right there with your goalpost-moving mention of 'full-time, retained.' Gamelabs has artists. They don't hire random shmucks from the internet and then burn their invoices.

[Talos]

Talos beat me to it. Philadelphia was not designed by Humphreys and was built well before the original six frigates of the U.S. Navy.

 

Actually, Philadelphia was laid down after Constiution, United States, and Constellation were already comissioned (November 1798 with completion in April 1800, while the two heavy frigates comissioned in July in 1797 and 1798, and Constellation in the spring of 1798). The other three were paused due to budget constraints and completed later.

[Cragger]

Actually, Philadelphia was laid down after Constiution, United States, and Constellation were already comissioned (November 1798 with completion in April 1800, while the two heavy frigates comissioned in July in 1797 and 1798, and Constellation in the spring of 1798). The other three were paused due to budget constraints and completed later.

 

You are 100% correct. I was mistaken in my memory. She predates the President but not the Constitution due to the pause in construction. 

[Legioneod]

I have a question, if I were to model some ships could they be added to the game? What are the requirements for this?

[Talos]

You are 100% correct. I was mistaken in my memory. She predates the President but not the Constitution due to the pause in construction. 

 

Yeah. Good rule of (simplified) thumb is the six frigates were the original purchase. Some were paused and finished later. The subscription frigates, which included Philadelphia, John Adams, Boston, and others, were the second generation.

[Cragger]

Uh, we asked?

Cerberus was bought online, but AFAIK that's it.

And I'm gonna stop you right there with your goalpost-moving mention of 'full-time, retained.' Gamelabs has artists. They don't hire random shmucks from the internet and then burn their invoices.

 

And I'm going to stop you in your exaggeration in "burn their invoices" Being a contract worker and consulting engineer for the last 15 years because I enjoy the variety of projects it brings, I know with experience that a contracted employee is only obligated by the terms of their contract. Once a client has accepted a service or product as complete the obligation ends there. If they wish to update or change the product later a new contract is negotiated. It is not done for free or done on the contractors timeline as the original terms were satisfied.

 

If the modeler is free of other contractual agreements and enjoyed working on the contract being rehired is likely. But they aren't required or obligated to, that is the distinction I making. I never claimed the ships where bought from an assets shop like your example with the Cerberus.

 

If a developer wishes to state that the models were indeed done by a permanent team member and not under contract then by all means I'm fully open to be proven wrong. And I'll even be impressed due to the small size of their studio.

[Legioneod]

And I'm going to stop you in your exaggeration in "burn their invoices" Being a contract worker and consulting engineer for the last 15 years because I enjoy the variety of projects it brings, I know with experience that a contracted employee is only obligated by the terms of their contract. Once a client has accepted a service or product as complete the obligation ends there. If they wish to update or change the product later a new contract is negotiated. It is not done for free or done on the contractors timeline as the original terms were satisfied.

 

If the modeler is free of other contractual agreements and enjoyed working on the contract being rehired is likely. But they aren't required or obligated to, that is the distinction I making. I never claimed the ships where bought from an assets shop like your example with the Cerberus.

 

If a developer wishes to state that the models were indeed done by a permanent team member and not under contract then by all means I'm fully open to be proven wrong. And I'll even be impressed due to the small size of their studio.

Just because it's a small shop doesn't mean they don't or can't do everything in house. Campfire games is a good example, they only have a handfull of people (less than 10 or something) and they do everything in house.

[Cragger]

I have a question, if I were to model some ships could they be added to the game? What are the requirements for this?

 

A working knowledge of how the Unity 5 (?) engine interprets the model file format is a beginning. Beyond that the texture mapping techniques and restrictions supported by what they are doing with the Unity engine would be the next step. From there producing something small as a proof of capability to see if  you can strike up a conversation with the developers. 

 

Game modeling is as much making a model in a way the game engine can use it as it is making something in Maya, 3DS, or Blender etc. For example in IL2 animation points always had to be done in a anticlockwise direction along the axis even though this looked so wrong in 3DS simply because that's how the game engine handled animations for ailerons, rudders, and elevators. If you did them in a way that looked normal in 3DS they ended up reversed or inverted in the game.

 

Given enough dedication, and willing to hand over the rights of the model it's certainly doable. That and it has to be something they haven't already planned or have underway under contract or in house.

[maturin]

 

Being a contract worker and consulting engineer for the last 15 years because I enjoy the variety of projects it brings, I know with experience that a contracted employee is only obligated by the terms of their contract. Once a client has accepted a service or product as complete the obligation ends there. If they wish to update or change the product later a new contract is negotiated. It is not done for free or done on the contractors timeline as the original terms were satisfied.

I'm guessing none of those 15 years were in Eastern Europe, though.

 

Contractual obligations are a distant second to informal expectations in a long-term business relationship.

[Cragger]

I'm guessing none of those 15 years were in Eastern Europe, though.

 

Contractual obligations are a distant second to informal expectations in a long-term business relationship.

 

Well IL2 was developed by Maddox Games (Closed 2009) under the publisher 1C headquartered in Moscow, so that is the answer to your first question.

 

To suggest that Eastern European companies are less sophisticated and respectful of the terms of contracts is rather insulting to them I think. Western ones are the ones you have to be wary of sneaking in revision obligations in my experience.