Tindahbawx Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Crafters can build an overhaul kit that costs the same as the most basic unmodified version of a ship. It can be used to restore any ship of the same class and wood type as the overhaul kit. (So the item would be like "Live Oak Lynx Overhaul Kit") It's not purely about psychological impact, because it would mean you can restore an exceptional ship with an overhaul kit that is technically much cheaper than finding a whole new gold quality ship, however, it would give everyone a chance to build up to exceptional ships rather than just having them be toys for the super rich. The amount of base trading materials used in an overhaul would be the same as building new hulls though. Since you would have to overhaul a ship when it hits 1 durability rather than replacing it when it hits zero overhauls would technically be 25% more costly in base materials, but preserve your ship's upgrades, so crafters wouldn't lose any business. Why do you think that everyone should be sailing around in the finest crafted ships though? Why are you of the opinion that the baseline affordability for the game should be the ability for everyone to afford Mastercraft ships? What exactly do you think is so bad about the concept of Mastercraft ships only being available to the super-rich, and therefore a symbol of being successful at the game through sheer perservereance? They're not supposed to be something everyone has parked in their docks, they're supposed to be something you work towards. I would have thought that common quality ships would be "good enough" for 80% of what you do in the game, and that mastercrafts should only be bought if you are able to throw cash around, or if you just really enjoy a particular ship, you really like using it and you feel you would find use in the little extra performance boost it gives, do you not agree with that? I don't think that a "common" overhaul or durability kit should be able to fix a mastercrafted ship, no. Mastercrafted ships are supposed to be the finest ships on the sea, made by master craftsmen, and with hours put into every aspect of the vessel to ensure its perfect... and you are suggesting you should just be able to patch them up with some old planks and hessian cloth that someone has thrown together, have your own workers hammer it onto the hull, and think that this wont or shouldnt impact the performance? No. I cannot agree to that. If "durability kits" were to be introduced, I would far prefer it if at LEAST you had to use one of the same quality or higher of the ship your are fixing up. EG: You could make a Fine Quality DU Kit, and with it you can fix up Fine, Common and Basic vessels of that class, but you cannot fix Mastercraft or that other crafting level I have forgotton the name of, simply becaus ethe kit isnt good enough. Higher quality kits cost crafting notes, just like the base ship itself does. Frankly, I dont see the need to repair a ships durability at all, but there you go, apparently some people are ridiculously loss-adverse. Its only pixels. So what if it gets sunk? Buy another. Managed to burn through 5 durability and still don't have the cash for a replacement? Tough luck, sail better next time. Edited February 11, 2016 by Tindahbawx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsafer Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Aetrion you seem to be missing the basic concept of economics in a rich flowing economy there has to be supply and demand, with ship loss it creates a demand for ships thus giving traders and crafters lots to do like making parts for the ship building the ship and selling it to a captain. No crafter want's to sit and make overhaul kits or other goods just they also wan't to build ships. What you suggest would take away a big part of crafting and economy making it boring. What I'm getting from you is you are to lazy or unable to save money to buy or craft a ship yourself so you wan't to change the whole concept to fit your needs. ( you say you are not but in fact you really are.) Your sense of progression is getting to the rank to be able to use the "perfect ship you wan't" with out crew penalties or very little. And I'm pretty sure with thousands of people crafting ships the chances of you finding the perfect ship again I think will be pretty good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justme Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 If you lose an already 5 durability ship so fast that it didnt make its price back, either by pvp or pve activity, that is entirely your fault. Ships are very cheap in the current state of the game, especially with the extensive mission rewards in gold. I think Ruth's comment was in reference to ships having 1 Dura not 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The idea of overhaul kits is basically: Crafters can build an overhaul kit that costs the same as the most basic unmodified version of a ship. It can be used to restore any ship of the same class and wood type as the overhaul kit. (So the item would be like "Live Oak Lynx Overhaul Kit") It's not purely about psychological impact, because it would mean you can restore an exceptional ship with an overhaul kit that is technically much cheaper than finding a whole new gold quality ship, however, it would give everyone a chance to build up to exceptional ships rather than just having them be toys for the super rich. The amount of base trading materials used in an overhaul would be the same as building new hulls though. Since you would have to overhaul a ship when it hits 1 durability rather than replacing it when it hits zero overhauls would technically be 25% more costly in base materials, but preserve your ship's upgrades, so crafters wouldn't lose any business. As a crafter, the idea of building cookie-cutter 'overhaul kits' intsead of unique vessels is honestly repulsive. In twenty minutes every player in the game will have the ship they want, and then they just feed it kits for all eternity. I want to be a shipbuilder, not a gas station attendant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrdoomed Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 So you take away options from crafters so you can pick the ship you want? If you go this route, any crafter in their right mind will craft nothing but these kits because who wants to just sell one ship when you can sell multiple overhaul kits. Everyone will only buy the ship they like the best and there will be no need to make any more so now the only item worth putting on the market will be 4 kinds of kits instead of multiple ships and upgrades. Gratz, you just made crafting and trading the least diverse thing in the game since with only 4 items worth crafting, not sure how to make those unique...oh, and by the way, good luck finding anyone to make the pretty gold ship because it wouldn't be worth it to make money. You're right Mrdoom, this guy is on a personal crusade and refuses to rebut anything contributing to why his ideas are bad yet keeps on preaching. I sense this church getting smaller and smaller. Yup. If he spent 1/10th the time playing ( if he even plays) as he does here complaining he would have no problems with ship buying. Regardless of anything said he just goes along with his talking points....like hes a paid plant from another game almost lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetrion Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 You guys have no problem telling people who don't like being completely beholden to crafters they should leave the game entirely, but the SLIGHTEST compromise for crafters to make the situation a bit more equitable is treated like it's the worst thing ever. As a crafter, the idea of building cookie-cutter 'overhaul kits' intsead of unique vessels is honestly repulsive. So you want to build one unique ship after the next and have the game ensure that there is infinite demand for them? Why exactly does the entire game need to revolve around what you want? Why should what you want out of the game have top priority and other people get told to "go play WoW"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsafer Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 You guys have no problem telling people who don't like being completely beholden to crafters they should leave the game entirely, but the SLIGHTEST compromise for crafters to make the situation a bit more equitable is treated like it's the worst thing ever. So you want to build one unique ship after the next and have the game ensure that there is infinite demand for them? Why exactly does the entire game need to revolve around what you want? Why should what you want out of the game have top priority and other people get told to "go play WoW"? Aetrion it is not just what Maturin wan'ts it would seem the vast majority here like it the way it is, it is you that seems to wan't to change the game to what you wan't. Its not that hard to replace a ship that you lost with one that is equal or close to equal to the one you had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 So you want to build one unique ship after the next and have the game ensure that there is infinite demand for them? Uh, yeah? You say that like it's something horrible and oppressive instead of the very foundation of econ and crafting gameplay. Without that, there's nothing. ...And if by 'infinite' demand you mean that all men die and time is infinite, therefore demand is theoretically infinite. Over here in the real game, crafters have lots of trouble selling ships to players. You guys have no problem telling people who don't like being completely beholden to crafters they should leave the game entirely, but the SLIGHTEST compromise for crafters to make the situation a bit more equitable is treated like it's the worst thing ever. I'm getting sick of your accusations. Let's make something very clear: This game has loss because the broader playerbase wants it. I repeat: Most players interested in PvP want loss. The game would be stale, fluffy and pink if ships lasted forever. This is not all about crafters. You're not facing off against a shadowy cabal of ruthless capitalists, so stop trying to puff up that martyrdom narrative. You're just airing an unpopular opinion. As for compromise, you can get sunk 5 battles in a row before losing anything. And in those 5 defeats you still earn enough money to buy two new ships. Now a single mission against a puny bot gives you enough cash to buy a vessel. What more do you want? The loss is entirely in your imagination. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedlox Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Uh, yeah? You say that like it's something horrible and oppressive instead of the very foundation of econ and crafting gameplay. Without that, there's nothing. ...And if by 'infinite' demand you mean that all men die and time is infinite, therefore demand is theoretically infinite. Over here in the real game, crafters have lots of trouble selling ships to players. I'm getting sick of your accusations. Let's make something very clear: This game has loss because the broader playerbase wants it. I repeat: Most players interested in PvP want loss. The game would be stale, fluffy and pink if ships lasted forever. This is not all about crafters. You're not facing off against a shadowy cabal of ruthless capitalists, so stop trying to puff up that martyrdom narrative. You're just airing an unpopular opinion. As for compromise, you can get sunk 5 battles in a row before losing anything. And in those 5 defeats you still earn enough money to buy two new ships. Now a single mission against a puny bot gives you enough cash to buy a vessel. What more do you want? The loss is entirely in your imagination. But he just wants to be able to log on a fight ships without having to do anything else! Why shouldn't we support completely changing the fundamentals of the game for him to have what he wants over all of the others in this thread. It isn't fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 But he just wants to be able to log on a fight ships without having to do anything else! Why shouldn't we support completely changing the fundamentals of the game for him to have what he wants over all of the others in this thread. It isn't fair! But he CAN log in and fight ships without having to do anything else! Income earned from fighting is immense! Econ income does not fund war. On the contrary, fighting gives players tons of disposable income to invest in econ. Or not, if they so choose. The only thing you need econ for is an on-demand source of top-quality ships. If your so loss-averse, capture throwaway vessels or buy discount ships from the shop. That's what I do when I want to live dangerously. And personally, I don't think I would be any more likely to seek out PvP if vessels had unlimited durability. Not in the OW, anyway. In a world where going solo usually means getting ganked, escape is a form of victory. The impulse of self-preservation does not stem from having something to lose, and immortal ships would not make me behave recklessly. (A gameworld full of suicidal players wouldn't be fun anyhow.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justme Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Guess what: the fact that you think they are not interesting enough, doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same. I love to craft ships, and sell them. I love looking for cheap resources, and I love that I can shortly craft even bigger and better ships. Why do you want to bend the game to your will? I understand you dont like that you have to do some (not much, but some) PvE gameplay if you want to keep playing PvP, because people tend to sink your ship. But that doesnt mean that the economy and crafting is worthless, only because trying to reach the point where you simply cannot lose your ship. Real crafting is fun, hard work, and very rewarding. Pretending to craft in a game is not. Sorry you get the two mixed up. The issue is not that there is a PVE element to the game, it's that on a " pvp" server you will still be doing mainly PVE task if the Econ guys have their way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetrion Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Aetrion it is not just what Maturin wan'ts it would seem the vast majority here like it the way it is, it is you that seems to wan't to change the game to what you wan't. Its not that hard to replace a ship that you lost with one that is equal or close to equal to the one you had. The vast majority? There are plenty of people in this thread who agree with me or who liked my original post, you think they don't count because they haven't written multiple posts mocking and deriding the other side, or told anyone they should leave the game? This attitude of entitlement from you guys like you are so much more important than everyone else that the game needs to be 100% what you want and 0% what anyone else wants is just getting absurd. Why should the devs listen to you guys? Because you're doing such a good job being hostile to everyone who doesn't love the game exactly like it is during an alpha that is meant for feedback and changes? Because you keep acting like you're the arbitrators of who should be allowed to enjoy this game and who should play something else? Because the idea of a compromise is repulsive to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The vast majority? There are plenty of people in this thread who agree with me or who liked my original post, You understand that "plenty" is perfectly capable of being a minority, right? Because you keep acting like you're the arbitrators of who should be allowed to enjoy this game and who should play something else? Because the idea of a compromise is repulsive to you? The devs are the arbiters and already implemented a compromise solution known as durability. Which was quite unpopular, I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedlox Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Real crafting is fun, hard work, and very rewarding. Pretending to craft in a game is not. Sorry you get the two mixed up. The issue is not that there is a PVE element to the game, it's that on a " pvp" server you will still be doing mainly PVE task if the Econ guys have their way. Wow, so because he enjoys crafting and trading in game, you insult him? How bout, if you were capable of using both of your brain cells, you may find a way to fund your pvp without doing all that pve stuff. It's not the econ guys having their way, the game was designed this way, so technically, it's the developers way. The vast majority? There are plenty of people in this thread who agree with me or who liked my original post, you think they don't count because they haven't written multiple posts mocking and deriding the other side, or told anyone they should leave the game? This attitude of entitlement from you guys like you are so much more important than everyone else that the game needs to be 100% what you want and 0% what anyone else wants is just getting absurd. Why should the devs listen to you guys? Because you're doing such a good job being hostile to everyone who doesn't love the game exactly like it is during an alpha that is meant for feedback and changes? Because you keep acting like you're the arbitrators of who should be allowed to enjoy this game and who should play something else? Because the idea of a compromise is repulsive to you? The devs aren't listening to anyone, they all ready made the game, and guess what, it has loss, crafting, and trading.....you're the one crusading for a complete overhaul which isn't going to happen. People started out politely telling you why loss is needed but you refuse to listen and keep coming up with awful ideas that will never get implemented....you sir, are the definition of entitled. We bought a game designed with what we agree with, you didn't and you are the one wanting to change it. You remind me of my daughter that wanted green apple bubblegum but then complained that they weren't pink..... And I don't think you would like WoW either, you have to depend on crafters to get gems, and spells, and other stuff that requires work in order to compete so forget about going that route. Edited February 11, 2016 by Dedlox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justme Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 If I want to craft something, I get my woodworking tools and do so. Not an insult, just a fact. If the developers wanted to do it solely their way, why would they ask the community for input if they intend to ignore it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charognard666 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Perdonnaly when i M talking about wow it s world of warship no craft, instant fight... and you nerver loose any Ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The loss is entirely in your imagination. Exactly! It's like that with most players in this game. I think the perception of loss in spite of income and expenses, which are fine, is the main explanation for the habitual running we see and the often poor quality of fights. If you have a better explanation, do tell, and I'll start focusing on that. I've seen frequent and fun fighting in other games without loss. I've never heard complaints from those other games, some of them with RvR, that fighting is meaningless without loss. Not even once. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetrion Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Perdonnaly when i M talking about wow it s world of warship no craft, instant fight... and you nerver loose any Ship No open world, no sailing simulation, guns that scatter by hundreds of meters so hitting is pure luck... People here need to stop acting like there can be absolutely nothing in between Eve Online and World of Warships in terms of gameplay sensibilities. I've seen frequent and fun fighting in other games without loss. I've never heard complaints from those other games, some of them with RvR, that fighting is meaningless without loss. Not even once. Exactly, and in other games nobody is claiming that you can't have an economy and a decent progression system at the same time either. It's just a few really angry people on this forum who seem to think they know a secret truth that seemingly doesn't apply to the rest of the world. Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justme Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Perdonnaly when i M talking about wow it s world of warship no craft, instant fight... and you nerver loose any Ship You do if you lose to much money, but you also don't have to spend 90 percent of your game time with dull and repetitive task to earn enough to get another like the economy guys want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedlox Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) You do if you lose to much money, but you also don't have to spend 90 percent of your game time with dull and repetitive task to earn enough to get another like the economy guys want. See, the fact that you can cry about having to make money after I sink you gives me enjoyment. It's not just economy guys that have settled with the way it is. Man, as easy as it is to make gold, if replacing a ship is THAT BIG of a problem, then you have to lose ALOT. Edited February 11, 2016 by Dedlox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charognard666 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 This game from my point offre view is not only having fun in pvp but also about driving a war for your nation ans all players are involved in. And the real war is about economy and production. It s really important loss have an impact on players, guilds and nations layer.... And i really think the entire game was created arround this concept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I've seen frequent and fun fighting in other games without loss. Like what? Were they games with sandbox-style OW? Where outnumbering an opponent was decisive? Where the setting was historical? Where players were supposedly filling the role of captains with chronological careers? At the end of the day the loss is in your head, but so is the need for loss. Having a high seas adventure where every defeat is a mulligan just seems hard to swallow. You can't treat it like some WWII flying game. Oh, and I think the frequency of unfair battles also militates against players accepting a hard-fought defeat. Loss is tangled up in all the core dilemmas of the game: ganking, historical choices and progression, econ, etc, etc, all made a Gordian knot because this is an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drogoran Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 well the new mission and battle rewards combined with decreased ship store prices means ships are super easy to replace and that is a good thing for pvp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justme Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) See, the fact that you can cry about having to make money after I sink you gives me enjoyment. It's not just economy guys that have settled with the way it is. Man, as easy as it is to make gold, if replacing a ship is THAT BIG of a problem, then you have to lose ALOT. Only if things are brought down to one durability. That's the point you guys are missing. Do you make enough money each fight to cover the loss of said ship, with modules, upgrades etc?The way you make it sound your good enough to earn enough to buy 3 decked out victories each fight. I don't care if you lose something permenatly. The fact I can beat you at a whim is enough for me. Edited February 11, 2016 by Justme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slamz Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 however, it would give everyone a chance to build up to exceptional ships Well then they wouldn't be "exceptional". They would be "average". If we make the change you suggest, I recommend we rename the qualities. Was: Basic / Common / Fine / Mastercraft / Exceptional Could be changed to: Terribad / Still Really Bad / Why Did You Build This / Waste of Time / Average That way in the end we are all sailing "Average" ships, because it would literally be true. There would be no reason to ever build anything less. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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