Let's discuss the RoE... politely pls - I'm Canadian :)

[Angus McGregor]

The elephant in the room is... the current state of the RoE.  As I said in another thread, IMO it isn't horrible, but it isn't good let alone great. People are talking about making the signalling perk standard, but that's just saying leave battle instances open. Doing that raises its own problems.

                                                                                                                         

The following are mostly not even my ideas, but IMO are better than what we have now. Fair warning - some depend on others being in place too to keep things balanced. This isn't an a la carte kind of thing.

A: Tagging - should not have a long timer. What's the delay for? Give the target a chance to evade? That should happen in the battle instance. If I can get you inside tagging range- you're 'it'.

B: Pull circle - its crazy huge right now... based on replacing open timers with some sailing distance in ideal wind? This proposal brings the timers back, but we need a pull circle to ensure that NPC ships/fleets are more than just eye candy. So let's find a middle ground on its size. IMO two thirds of its current size would be a good compromise. All players are also pulled - you can't just blithely ignore the battle off your port bow.

C: Battle instance (BI) open/closed? Yep - forget the signalling perk, just bring the timers back. Should be open for at least 10 minutes if and only if point 'D' is adopted in some form.

D: Joining an existing BI should not drop you within pistol range of the original battle. That is hugely unrealistic and unfair to the opposing ships. Yeah - war isn't fair. Unfair circumstances are one thing, unfair game mechanics are quite another.

• joining a BI by proximity at the edge of a 'join circle' instead of clicking on swords. I see this as the only solution to ships not spawning into the BI at pistol range and not on land. Read on.
• Optional: clicking on swords from beyond join circle could  display nations involved, total number of ships and who has BR advantage - no hard numbers.
• when join circle reached, the BI 'join window' pops up automatically. Join circle size? I'd say the current pull circle size, even if the pull circle is made smaller in point 'B'. I'd also like it to be invisible to try to stop maneuvering for wind advantage, or cut off escape with accelerated sailing in OW.
• BI join window much like now with BR details and Join/Withdraw options. Join - you join the battle. Withdraw - the battle marker is gone and you proceed on your merry. The BI join window will not go away unless you choose an option, enter port, or sail some major distance away.
• Spawning into BI puts you to your position and heading on the join circle when BI join window first appeared, NOT where you are when you get around to clicking the Join option. Solves the issue with 'johnny-come-laters' suddenly appearing at <200m with 'prepared' broadsides. New arrivals appearing at the join circle perimeter gives existing combatants time to prepare or flee (if possible). There's still an issue if the battle shifts to where the join circle perimeter is, but I don't see a solution to that without flirting with spawning on land again.

E: BR balancing - same as used for current signalling perk, which may need adjusting/fixing. I dunno.

If there are glaring opportunities for abuse in this proposal, feel free to point them out.

PS - It should go without saying but PvE mission BI's (if not for hostility, geez - not for hostility) are a different animal, they should close instantly.

 

[Yar Matey]

A: Ok, I propose 15 seconds instead of 30 seconds.  Does that sound fair/more reasonable? 

B: I like the large pull circle, I think it should maybe be even larger

C:  Battles should close instantly, sorry, but you need to be in the area and in open world to participate in the battle.  Perhaps if you are in the area but just outside of the pull range, you get an option to join the battle or not but you only get 5 seconds to decide to join. 

D:  The only possible way I would even consider someone else joining the battle is if you are near the battle when the instance is started, again you get a 5 second window to join right then in there if you are just out of range of the second circle. 

E:  Personally, I am not a fan of perks like signaling. 

The one thing you forgot is the no attack timer of 30 seconds once you are dropped into open world.  I think it should be increased from 30 seconds to 2 minutes. 

[Tomms123]

This is my idea on these things and not anything else, need to make that clear

 

A: If I went up to you and pressed attack and we got into a battle at the second you got no chance to do anything, counter tagging will also be very easy. I spot you and I pull you into a battle miles away and you cant do anything about it and then I exit and use the teleport to closest friendly port when I'm in battlescreen. I wouldnt like that.

In real a chase took hours and hours, the timer helps to give another element and that is the initial position in the battle. That is most of the time the key to see who got the best chance to win the engagment.

B: I sort of like how the pull circle is already so I dont want really a change on that.

C: No, we used to have 10 mins long timers back over 1 year ago, the engagment most often were almost over when someone could still join in and that side which got the joiner then would be the one which most of the time would be the one which won the engagment. The size of the open world is smaller due to technology reason (less needed server power etc) and thus we need mechanic which can sort of gimick it.

D: With Land in Battles this is not possible to ensure that someone wont spawn into land (yes we have asked) so just with that D is ruled out.

E: Well, I dont agree with that. Will reference you to the story about 'the back in the day 10 min timer'

[Angus McGregor]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

The parts of the RoE that are almost universally panned are the fiddly, buggy, and broken bits associated with BR balancing and perk-related, sometimes-it-works-one-way-other-times-it-blows-up-in-your-face mechanics. These all need to go away in favor of consistent, always-works-one-way tagging and battle escape mechanics. I've advocated for removal of all RoE-affecting perks and the following: 

1. Keep current 2 circle RoE tagging mechanics
2. Add Area Control into standard mechanics
3. Fix signalling and add into standard mechanics, but make joining after the initial tag occur where your ship was when the crosses first appeared for the sailor in OW (the horizon or at the dock if joining from port)
4. Test the removal of shot-based in-battle tagging to keep people in battle, in favor of Area Control only

Everything else stays the same. RoE will always be a compromise for different play styles and so if your reaction is, "Well, these aren't horrible, but I can live with it," then the dev's have got it just about right.

 

1. With no tag timer, there's no need for 2 circles. What exactly does the attack circle do? Isn't it just a way for...

• ...the attacker to change their mind and abandon the attack if it looks like the odds will not be in their favor at the end of the timer? With no timer, the situation for the attacker is WYSIWYG. If you've initiated an attack you better be ready for the consequences.

• ...the defender to escape by the end of the timer? By the same token I also see no reason for allowing the defender to escape out in the OW where the ship's relative speeds are wonky before the battle even starts.

2. I have no dispute with this. Sounds entirely reasonable to stop players from being locked in the BI by hail Mary sail shots. You pull far enough ahead, you've escaped.

3. It looks like our thinking here is actually pretty close. We both want the BI to stay open for a period of time. We both want the ships that join an existing battle to spawn into the BI at a heading and distance determined from the OW. You're suggesting the distance to be the horizon, I'm suggesting the current large pull circle perimeter. Not *that* different. There are some pretty heavy technical issues hidden here, especially for the situation you raised about leaving a port with multiple battles being in range. Ugh

Edited January 19, 2017 by Angus McGregor

[Angus McGregor]

On 1/19/2017 at 2:27 PM, Hodo said:

Simple fixes to ROE is this.

-Reduce tag timer to 10sec.

-Outer ring will only pull players, not NPCs

-Inner ring will pull EVERYTHING!

-After leaving battle you have a 10s invisibility to go with your invulnerability from tags.

 

4 fixes and ROE will work a LOT better.

I will admit to being baffled for why ppl want the tag timer. Is it purely to give the attackee a chance to evade? Someone please explain to me what I'm missing. I mean that sincerely.

Reducing the tag timer to 10 seconds is nearly the same as doing away with it isn't it? I would think a savvy attacker would just get closer before tagging and thus make it virtually impossible to get outside attack circle in just 10 seconds.

[randomtaskkk]

Gents,

Attacker initiates battle as per current mechanics or similar.

Pull circle pulls anyone within radius (not too fussed about what the radius actually is).

Radius should be invisible so it takes some skill to get a decent tag and not pull things you don't definitely want to fight.

Pull should include all ships in the pull circle regardless of AI / player / nations.

When battle starts, the initial pulled ships are as per their OW location.

Teams should be set as per politics (you are teamed with Allies, fighting enemies, can fight or avoid neutrals as you see fit).

On battle start, server checks for any ship which can see the battle (you could even calculate crow's nest height vs. earth curvature for a really accurate version) and these ships are able to sail to and join the battle.

Any ships wishing to join the battle not already pulled sail to the edge of the pull circle.

They can join whenever they want, as long as they were in visual range when it started. Note - this isn't necessarily in game draw distance - but the actual "real life" range over ocean they could see.

Storms / bad weather affect the visual range (you can ambush people in storms with less chance of them getting reinforcement).

If you weren't in visual range (how would you know the battle is happening?), or in port (how would you get your ship ready and sailing in the few hours the battle lasts?), you can't join the battle.

When someone who was in visual range, but not pulled initially, gets to the edge of the pull circle, they click cross swords to join.

Their position when joining the battle is based on what direction they were relative to the attacker when the battle commenced.

When spawning into battle, the server calculates the average "middle point" of all ships in battle. Player joining spawns at 750 metres (or any other number) away from this point on the heading noted above.

As it's only an average position, they may be closer to some ships than others, depending how tight the battle formations are.

 

Its not ideal, but I'm not sure what else can be done and this seems fairly logical and in keeping with a semi-accurate ROE within game limitations.

 

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Hodos 4 fixes are a good start.  I would add some BR balancing, because ganks are boring.

[fox2run]

ROE is not only about immersion. Actually it should be far away from it. 

ROE is the only tool we got to meet eachother in battles. 

ROE is a core mechanism for a naval action game like this. 

A game like this will live and die due to the ROE and as such it's vital that this mechanism reflects the aim of the game.

But in here lies the problem. Becourse what is the idea behind the game?? 

Some like it to be a pirate game much like single player experience. A role play. kind of game. They need instant closing battle mechanisms so they can tag a prey in peace. 

Others like it to be a navy game with large battles. They need some fully manned PBs.

Others again like to sail in an unpredictable and fun world with action all over the map. A world where you can help the prey and look at battles as they evolve. They need long open timers for joining battles. (Me among others). 

We will never agree on this. 

[Angus McGregor]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

The tag timer gives some chance to maneuver for position before the fight.  Much like ships would have done historically, they would have jockeyed for position long before they came in gun range.  

Ahh - okay. Betraying my lack of PvP experience.  Still seems like 10 seconds doesn't leave much opportunity to do that. *shrug*

 

4 hours ago, randomtaskkk said:

edited for brevity

On battle start, server checks for any ship which can see the battle ... and these ships are able to sail to and ...  can join whenever they want, as long as they were in visual range when it started. 1

Storms / bad weather affect the visual range ... you can't join the battle. 2

Position when joining the battle is based on what direction they were relative to the attacker when the battle commenced. 3

When spawning into battle, the server calculates the average "middle point" of all ships in battle. 4

Player joining spawns at 750 metres (or any other number) away from this point on the heading noted above. 5

This is very promising. It avoids issues my suggestion had but introduces a few new ones. Hopefully discussion can iron a few out.

1. Visual range - headache over fog and intervening islands since that would add computing line of sight (LoS) tests for every ship. May not be as bad as I'm thinking though.
2. Suggest ships without LoS shouldn't see crossed swords in their client at all.
3. Its not much of a diff but I'd make it relative to the crossed swords. (Just being picky. Its my OCD  ).
4. Suggest using location of original target ship, live or sunk. This is way less computation intensive.
5. Intervening islands could again be a spawn-on-land problem if land is low and LoS is still okay.

[Angus McGregor]

4 hours ago, fox2run said:

ROE is not only about immersion. Actually it should be far away from it. 1

A game like this will live and die due to the ROE and as such it's vital that this mechanism reflects the aim of the game. 2

Edited...

What is the idea behind the game?? 

• Some like it to be a pirate game much like single player experience. A role play kind of game. They need instant closing battle mechanisms so they can tag a prey in peace. 3
• Others like it to be a navy game with large battles. They need some fully manned PBs. 4
• Others again like to sail in an unpredictable and fun world with action all over the map. A world where you can help the prey and look at battles as they evolve. They need long open timers for joining battles. (Me among others). 

We will never agree on this. 5

1. Agreed - you shouldn't hardly notice an ideal RoE. It should just seem natural.
2. Agree again - if RoE is wrong - it will sour everything else.
3. Yes - but NA is a MORPG with limited MOBA options. It isn't pseudo single player unless they're happy with the PvE server. Pardon the bad metaphor, but beyond that I struggle with wolves wanting to cut a ewe from the flock with the rams and guard dogs inexplicably deaf and blind. Just sayin'.
4. We have to assume PBs will be more plentiful and more easily attended after release with higher server populations or NA is dead anyway.   It shouldn't be part of our discussions on basic mechanics.
5. Statistics are good for showing that virtually all groups are arranged as a bell curve. Individuals can (and do) rant and fume all they like but if the dev team concentrates on the central majority and doesn't sweat over the extremes at either end - NA will do well. One thing that will help is getting feedback from more than just the forum dwellers. They've said an NA entry poll for important issues was coming in the next patch - but that was months ago.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Angus McGregor

[Kiithnaras]

The current 20-second tag timer is a "polite" way of indicating to newer/inattentive players, "Yo, fool, stuff is about to get real, you best be prepared." It allows defenders to juggle for wind position with attackers and vice versa. IF tagging timers were removed, the tagging circle would need to be roughly equivalent to the Area Control radius (750m), which is a rather short distance on the OW, much shorter than what presently exists. I don't think that the pull circles should be shortened in any way. I'm more or less in agreement with @Wraith's post above.

[fox2run]

I read somewhere that a review stated something like this:

NA is a kind of a World of Warship game with excellent combat mechanisms. Unfortunately its impossible to join a fight. The matchmaking system is a huge map of the carribean that players sail around in for hours to find a battle.

[Hethwill]

46 minutes ago, fox2run said:

I read somewhere that a review stated something like this:

NA is a kind of a World of Warship game with excellent combat mechanisms. Unfortunately its impossible to join a fight. The matchmaking system is a huge map of the carribean that players sail around in for hours to find a battle.

Hours is a stretch. I do 1 hours streams and each has 3 engagements and I am a picky dastard regarding targets as I only prey on the weak and the fat.

Uninformed reviewer right from the start  so hardly a review.

"Open world" should be a hint, "Sandbox" another. As the reviewer could reason for himself no one cares much about instant "world of..." combat or else Small and Large battles would be totally full all the time.

The only true RoE would be to make the regions an entire instance. all combat always there going on and not caring a pyrate's tail if you can then sail to it or not because everything is real time, so you are either close to the battle or you ain't.

Alas we don't have that luxury.

btw before the RoE timer comes into talk again...20 - 30 minutes is a run from La Mona to Hat Island. It is absurd.

second, I use Signaling while raiding. Have yet to have someone jump into the battles to save the poor weak and fat traders.

 

[Prater]

On 1/24/2017 at 8:20 AM, fox2run said:

ROE is not only about immersion. Actually it should be far away from it. 

ROE is the only tool we got to meet eachother in battles. 

ROE is a core mechanism for a naval action game like this. 

A game like this will live and die due to the ROE and as such it's vital that this mechanism reflects the aim of the game.

But in here lies the problem. Becourse what is the idea behind the game?? 

Some like it to be a pirate game much like single player experience. A role play. kind of game. They need instant closing battle mechanisms so they can tag a prey in peace. 

Others like it to be a navy game with large battles. They need some fully manned PBs.

Others again like to sail in an unpredictable and fun world with action all over the map. A world where you can help the prey and look at battles as they evolve. They need long open timers for joining battles. (Me among others). 

We will never agree on this. 

 

So we have a system where all of it is possible, like it currently is now.  We don't all have to agree.  We should all respect everyone else's game and allow a system that makes their game possible.  The current ROE makes everyone's game possible, unless you are playing with a blindfold on.  It allows giant naval fights, tiny ones, 1v1s, small teams, ganks, trader vs raider, etc.  It respects everyone's game.  So the core mechanics do not need to be drastically changed, but they can be tweaked, and there are many good ideas surrounding how they can be tweaked and still respect everyone's favorite style, whether it is large, small, inbetween, fair, unfair, 1v1, or what

Edited January 25, 2017 by Prater

[fox2run]

1 hour ago, Prater said:

 

So we have a system where all of it is possible, like it currently is now.  We don't all have to agree.  We should all respect everyone else's game and allow a system that makes their game possible.  The current ROE makes everyone's game possible, unless you are playing with a blindfold on.  It allows giant naval fights, tiny ones, 1v1s, small teams, ganks, trader vs raider, etc.  It respects everyone's game.  So the core mechanics do not need to be drastically changed, but they can be tweaked, and there are many good ideas surrounding how they can be tweaked and still respect everyone's favorite style, whether it is large, small, inbetween, fair, unfair, 1v1, or what

I find the game a true bore after they cut down joining timers. Its impossible to find a fight in a descent amount of time. The requirements are too steep. Normal matchmaking is a question about minutes. Here we need hours to find a fight. Many nights I have wasted my time. All the other wargames I know of its easy to get a fight. Here you need TS, 2-3 hours, weeks of shipbuilding and some luck to find a descent fight. Its not working guys.

[Prater]

It isn't that it isn't working.  It isn't working for you, because you play with a blindfold on.