Venetian/Italian Ship Collection (With Plans)

[Sella]

Wow she is stunning... Devs can we make an exception for this one? It will bring shallow water battles to another level

[Fluffy Fishy]

Venetian Rating System:

Oddly there is a differentiation in the Venetian rating system between Fregate and their ships rated in the 4 tiers of the rango system, which makes for a bit of difficulty in their classification because in reality their line ships were built to much more frigate based lines, especially in the mid to late 18th century where the main heavy hitters of the Venetian navy were much more like super heavy frigates than line ships, behaving in the water as such which complemented the Venetian naval doctrines and training. The mix of the Venetian fleet of galleys and round ships meant that the Venetian fleet tended to favour use of more traditional mixed flat battle lines rather than the common practise of fighting in column based tactics used by most of Europe by this point. The Frigates of all sizes were built to support this system that was reliant on agile ships more than the orderly queues of battle of western European naval combat. You can see this in the various battle lines of the 4th 5th and 6th Venetian-Ottoman wars taking place between 1645 to 1718. The Venetians used quite a complicated system reliant on different types of ship with different combat roles between round and long ships.

 

Galleys
Galeotta 2 men to a bench 12-18 benches

Galea 3 men to a bench 20-24 benches
Galezza 4-5 men to a bench 22-28 benches

 

1600's to early decades of the 1700's

Primo Rango - 2 decks 66 and 74 gunners
Secondo Rango - 2 decks 52 to 64 gunners
Terzo Rango - 40 and 50 gunners
Quarto Rango, anything smaller


Around 1730+
Fregata Grossa 60+ Guns
Fregata 40-50 guns
Fregantine >40.

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Sella]

Unknown

Venetian Primo Rango

Inscribed in the centre: Fregata di 1˚rango fatta di mio idea e de quell che parer capir da mª di Buger

 

From(?):G. Penzo, Navi veneziani: catalogo illustrato dei piani di costruzione, Trieste 2000, p. 143, drawing 201

High res:http://www.artnet.com/artists/construction-plan-of-a-venetian-first-rank-ac-jpDRPtwlG3KSJsYEAGjdPg2

 

 

Unknown

32 gun frigate

Venetian

 

From(?):G. Penzo, Navi veneziani: catalogo illustrato dei piani di costruzione, Trieste 2000, p. 142, drawing 200

High res:http://www.artnet.com/artists/construction-plan-of-a-venetian-first-rank-ac-v5nyFe-SKN2ikewDrQQAyA2

 

Need help identifying!

[Fluffy Fishy]

Le Stengel

Venetian/French/Austrian 66 gun 2nd rate super frigate/3rd rate SOL.

Laid down 1782, completed 1797.

Armed with 26 18lb, 26 12lb and 12 6lb guns.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[ciccseven]

Are you people making some of these for Naval Action? What do you use, "Sketch-up" ???

[Fluffy Fishy]

Are you people making some of these for Naval Action? What do you use, "Sketch-up" ???

I'm not aware of any of these being made by the main posters here, we just drop plans, well usually it works by me dropping plans then Sella digs up a load of information about them, I then supplement it with a little bit of background knowledge and we try to post the ones we like best individually in the hope they put them in the game. If you are someone who can model then we would be more than happy to make suggestions, try and find the best plans we can and help you on your way. It will be no surprise from my signature that I think the most fun ships to add would be La Muiron and Fama.

Really we are a bunch of enthusiasts, I study Venice in general, Sella just likes all sorts of ships so we work together, and I say we make a good team but really we are both amateurs as far as I know. Its just nice to get some feedback from someone. The Last 7 pages are worth a look, there are some interesting and varied designs for ships. We would love to see any of them added to the game.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Bam, A corvette Called Carolina, sadly I don't have the sail plan but I will try and find it. I have the scale for both pictures, sadly the resolution of the second isnt as good.

Now that´s a cutie. Do you know when she was launched?

With that hull shape, 1790s or 1800s, maybe?

Carolina (extended)

I now have some additional information about Carolina, not the shocking lack of text that is Navi Vaneziane which as pretty as it is, is just sketches really.

34 gun Corvette.

Designed by Andrea Salvini, Laid down 1807, Launched in 1808.

Max Length 40.28m, Length of Bridge 37m.

Armed with 22x 12lb and 12x 24lb Carronades.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Enea

Class of 16 gun Cutter.

Launched in 1790, the ships in this class are Enea, Polluce and Castore.

24.4m keel, max width 8.0m

16x 8lb + 4x 12lb guns (french lb). some are chasers, but the plan I have is unspecified.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Idle Champion]

Are those 8 pounders on Enea in libra sottili or libra grossa?

[Sella]

Are those 8 pounders on Enea in libra sottili or libra grossa?

If they are in venetian measurement, cannon weight is always measured in Libbre sottili. But I believe Fluffy has converted them to British measurement

[Idle Champion]

When I said libra grossa I probably should have said converted pounds. I was just curious because he was not just converting to British measurement, but also rounding to British/in-game armament weights and 8-pounder was a break in that pattern; for now I'll assume he's referring to 12ls cannon.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Are those 8 pounders on Enea in libra sottili or libra grossa?

Neither, Enea uses libra francese (french pounds) alongside a few of the later Venetian ships, especially those that were built in the occupation periods. Apologies I probably should have stated that on the original post, I have updated it, I also found that I missed the chaser guns thank you for pointing it out.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Sella]

Aren't 12pounders a bit too much for a cutter?

[Sella]

Converted to British pounds:

 

[Fluffy Fishy]

Aren't 12pounders a bit too much for a cutter?

 

I thought so too but thats what it says.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Cibelle

12 Gun Goelette, 1790 designed in 1790 with two ships Cibelle and Merope.

Armed with 12x 8lb guns (French Weight).

22.74m length, 6.82m width (at longest/widest points)

Edited August 11, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Giasone

Brig-Cutter, 20 Guns. Designed 1791, Constructed in 1795 and launched 1796.

Armed with 20x 8lb (French weight)

Length at longest point 27.1m, Width at widest point 9.4m

[Fluffy Fishy]

Venetian Bombard Distruzion

Inspired by visiting the dockyards in Southampton and Deptford this is a venetian take on the mortar brig, there aren't proper plans but this reproduction of a sketch. The class was armed with 332mm or a 280mm mortar. and produced during this period. A few were made but most never made it to action, or even being named, there was a ship of this class called Orione which served in the Austrian navy. More often than not the bombard ships having made it most of the way through the construction process were dismantled and their parts used to aid in the building more important fighting ships.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

A little project I did this afternoon to share with you guys
 

The term Fregata first appearing in Italy during the 1600s, mainly being used on the west coast to describe medium size vessels as a casual, however the term became popular and spread throughout Italy and was adopted by the Venetians during the 1720s as they began a program that was to result in a class of ships they named Fregata Grossa a phrase that literally translates to Big Frigate, while it's something that can be a little perpendicular towards the naval trends of the developing atlantic powers it is no real surprise to those with an understanding of Venetian naval history, it also represents a similar system that started to be adopted by the changes in naval architecture of the super frigates brought on by the advances of the American Navy.

The background of this stems from the 17th century, Venice was in an interesting position intellectually with regards to naval design, the majority of its navy was still based off long ships, Venice producing the finest Galleys in the world, with some very notable advances happening around the birth of modern science which sparked to life from various investigations by an intellectual elite centred in the Venetian Arsenal, even attracting the greatest mind of his age, Galileo Galilei, who completed his apprenticeship in Naval Architecture in the Arsenal around the turn of 1600. This period of enlightenment spawned the first scientifically designed ships, huge Galleasses, on the contrary to this there was little research being done into round ships, despite having done so previously, with the development of ships like the Galleon, and the experimental ship Galleone Grande, a hulking 138 gun super galleon in the mid 1500s. The majority of round ships were designed and produced by family firms, these families mostly basing their operations on the Island of Lido at the edge of the Venetian lagoon and were only merchant vessels, which could occasionally be requisitioned to the Venetian state in times of war.

By the mid to late 17th century however, it became very clear how naval warfare was starting to develop, and it became a case of catch up or be caught out so in the 1660s work began to research and design warships similar to that of France, Spain and Britain, The the results were new construction methods and an order of Man o’war style ships, the first being the Giove Fulminate class, first launched in 1667 armed with 62 guns. Gradually over time these ships progressed and the rating system grew to Venetians using 70 guns on their largest ships, they briefly experimented with a 74 but this type of ship was deemed too expensive in construction and manpower. As part of this they developed a rating system based on 4 ratings, Primo, Secondo, Terzo and Quarto Rango which was to be used most notably between 1666 until around 1730.

These man o’war style ships saw considerable test in combat, this period saw the end of the Cretan war (1645-69), Morean War (1684-99) and the Second Morean War (1714-18) and during this time period it became more apparent that these new ships were powerful in a combat situation but were often avoided by the Ottoman fleets, they also struggled to compliment the Venetian naval doctrine and stock of world leading Galleys, calls were starting to be made for ships of a different kind to be constructed, vessels that properly worked to the strengths of Venetian capabilities and so after the recovery period following the Second Morean War, the Venetian state started to invest in a new range of ships and the term Fregata Grossa was adopted in Venice. The early use of the word was complimented by Fregata and Fregatine but the words evolved over time to encompass Fregata Leggera, Fregata Corvetta and Sciabecco.

The first ship of this new class system was the Sant’ Andrea 2 launched in 1724, built fitting into the current naval rating system as a secondo rango but noted for being different from it, and from this point the new style of ships began to replace the secondo, terzo and quatro rating system, while the primo rango ships were still maintained, due to their different use as heavy battleships. The new fregata range operated more similarly to modern ships, the Fregata Grossa working as Battle Cruisers, whereas the Fregata Leggera operated similarly to cruisers, with smaller ships such as the Fregata Corvetta and Fregatines working similar roles to modern destroyers.

The Fregata ships were a huge advancement for venice, leaping them forwards as they could now much more efficiently make use of their scientific achievements based off of years of developments in Galleys, the new Fregata range took much better advantage of various breakthroughs in centuries of investigations into the mathematics of basic fluid dynamics, hull shapes and trims for how to shave and improve rowing speed or sailing profiles aimed at making the most out of smaller more nimble ships, while research into larger ships was relatively stagnant apart from investment into various models of Galleass, which formed the backbone of heavy ships for the last 200 years. They were also much cheaper to man, but packed a similar punch to slightly larger ships such as the increasingly common 74s, The Fregata Grossa especially, which was seen as the pinnacle of technology, being as the venetians saw it, the perfect mix of speed and sailing capabilities matched with the firepower of larger ships, whilst still being able to properly support Galleys.

The Fregata Grossa class was comparable in size to the footprints of the large and super frigate period, their sizes being between 38-40m apart from the Fama class, which was 42m in length while carrying much more firepower. The Fregata Grossa classes did react to some of the same inflationary pressures as with all frigates and ships of the line, the earliest having been 56 guns, the last 66, although interestingly there was very little growth in length or girth over this inflationary period as designs became more intricate and the naval designers and shipwrights learnt to take more advantage of arranging the ship and use the considerable experiences of archived data looking at how to load and arrange galleys with their notably higher restrictions on use of space and understanding how to better apply what they knew to the Fregata Classes without compromising the hull strength, again something they had learned from the vast data collected with galleys and positioning rowing ports with regards to framing. There were also some advances into how to arrange crew, something that had been on the minds of Venetians for half a millenia, again these advancements came from applying advancements to galleys and how to arrange rowing benches and crew space to allow for the huge crews, such as those seen on the Lepanto Galleass in 1571, ships which could carry 1600 men, these age old technologies were applied to squash men in as efficiently as possible.

While in comparison to other navies at the time surprisingly few ships were built, mainly due to pressures on the Venetian finances during the last century of the republic they were well regarded by those who sailed them, the Fama class is considered the real swan song of the Venetian shipbuilding industry. In all there were 5 generations of Fregata Grossa:

Sant’ Andrea 2
    Sant’ Andrea 2 (1724)
    San Vincenzo (1730)
    Cervo d’Oro (1743)

San Michiel Archangelo
    San Michiel Archangelo (1743)
    Giglio d’Oro (1749)
    Cervo d’Oro (Refitted from previous class)
    Concordia (1773)
    Minerva (1773)

Speranza
    Speranza (1752)
    San Vincenzo Ferrer (1757)

Vigilanza
    Vigilanza (1757)
    Ercole (1761)
    Sirena (1778)

Fama
    Fama (1784)
    Gloria Veneta (1794)
    Le Stengel (1797)
    Le Beyrand (1797)
    2 ships never completed.
 

Edited October 18, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Just a little housekeeping post linking to the 3 extensive Venetian ship posts we have done now:

Fama:
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16277-la-fama-venetian-4th-rate-1784-with-plans/

La Muiron:
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13834-le-muiron-venetianfrench-frigate-1797-with-plans/?hl=muiron

Leon Trionfante:
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/17210-leon-trionfante-venetian-3rd-rate-1716-with-plans/

[Fluffy Fishy]

Another little house keeping link to the dedicated post for the "1780"/Laharpe.
 

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Monton d'Oro

An Update on the Unnamed ship on the first post of this thread, she turns out to be a 24 gun Corvette named Monton d'Orro

Firstly I want to send a huge thank you to @Sella22 for the initial work researching this ship, without him I would likely never have found the info myself, so please send any credit you have for this post his way, he deserves it far more than me.


Dimensions:
Length of gundeck: 70,00pv (24.34m)
Length at longest point:74,00pv (25.73m)
Width at waist: 29,00pv (10.08m)
Bilge tip: 18,55pv (6.45m)
Draft: 11,00pv (3.82m)

Armaments:
24 Guns (not 22) Weighted by Venetian Pounds, with English pounds in brackets.
4 x 20lb (13.2lb English)
16x 12lb (7.9lb English)
4x 6lb (3.9;b English)

History:
There were two ships of the Class, The Monton d'Oro and Abbondanza e Ricchezza, here is the history for both. Interestingly they are both Single hulled ships, single hull construction being something that had stuck with Venice due to the prominence of their galley fleet, Venetian ships weren't constructed as double hulls like the Atlantic navies until the Emo reforms in the 1780s.

Monton d'Oro:
She was designed by Stefano de Zuanne de Michiel and built by Iseppo de Pieri. She was ordered on Febuary 5th 1686 and her keel was laid soon after. She was completed on February 11th 1688 and began her service by April under the Command of Captain Bastian dei Coghi. She saw service during the Great Turkish war (1683–1699), or more specifically to Venice, the Morean war (1684–1699), which saw the Venetian forces lead by Francesco Morosini recapturing the Peloponnesian peninsular of Greece, and also various parts of the Dalmatian Coast in what is now Croatia. This was the war where Venetian cannon fire hit the Parthenon, at the time being used as a gunpowder store resulting in the Turkish magazine exploding and partially destroying the building that had remained fairly unchanged since it was built following Persian Wars.

Her main service was during the later part of the Morean war, supporting the occupation of Attica and the unssucessful attack of Negroponte (the Venetian name for Euboea), during the same war she also saw service along the Dalmatian Coastline. To celebrate Francesco Morisini's successes in Greece she was dressed up and used in the pageant to celebrate the progress of the war, for this she was fitted out in the Venetian island of Poveglia on May 18th 1691. However not long after her parade she was back in service, when she met her fate under the Captain Strada Bianca, where Monton d'Oro was set upon by a larger Turkish squadron and on the 13th of June 1691 was Burned to Avoid Capture, having completed only 3 years of service.

Abbondanza e Ricchezza:
Abbondanza e Ricchezza was ordered on December 20th 1679, she was the original design by Stefano de Zuanne de Michael (Stefano Conti). Her keel was laid down in 1681 and she was completed on the 15th of February 1688, she like her sister ship entered service some time before April 1688, to serve in the Morean War. Her construction was overseen by Antonio Filetto. Oddly, Abbondanza e Ricchezza, despite being ordered 9 years and laid 5 years before Monton d'Oro, she lost out on being the name ship of her class, due to Monton d'Oro being completed 4 days before her, and therefore being the first of her design to be completed. She was first commanded by Captain Cesare Fontana.

Abbondanza e Ricchezza was used extensively during the Morean war, and at some point she became a supply ship, supporting the larger fighting vessles of the Venetian fleet. After 6 years of service she was captured by the Turkish in the port of Scio (The Venetian name for Chios). Her history then becomes very hazy, where it remains unclear whether she was recaptured by the Venetians at some point or returned as part of the peace negotiations in 1699, the end of both the Great Turkish, and Morean Wars. During her period serving the Ottoman navy, she was renamed in Arabic, her name is unrecorded but when she returned to Venetian service she received a new name "Ve Appoggio", translating to "I support". Her fate is Unknown, but she was last recorded as a patrol ship, supporting Venetian trade interests in the Black sea.


I am so glad that something at the back of my mind for so long has finally been answered, I hope this helps everyone who was curious about the ship that took so long to find the history for, its just a shame its been such a long time coming. Thank you for reading and everyone who supported her through the original 2015 ship polls. As ever if anyone wants to know anything more do let me know I will do my best to help any extra queries, thanks again for reading

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy
Apologies for the incorrect information

[LeBoiteux]

2 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Monton d'Oro

An Update on the Unnamed ship on the first post of this thread, she turns out to be a 24 gun Corvette named Monton d'Orro

I am indeed very interested by your finding.

How did you succeed in identifying that plan as Monton d'Oro ? That plan shows no name. Did you find another similar plan with the name Monton ? Does Antonio Nadale, who drew that plan, mention the name in the text of his book ?

You describe the Monton as a 24-gun Corvette. The current plan shows less than 24 guns (maybe max 2x9 guns + 2x2 on the quarterdeck, ie max 22 guns, maybe 20), doesn't it ?  

The plan is part of a book written by Nadale, Notizie 1729-1773. Would the Monton d'Oro, built in 1688 and destroyed in 1691, be part of it ? The plan is described as that of a "Fregata Leggera, 1701-1800". 

Shouldn't the Monton d'Oro as a 24-gun ship build in late 17-C be called a (light) frigate ?

Looking forward to information in your reply 

Edited February 24, 2017 by LeBoiteux

[Fluffy Fishy]

On 2/24/2017 at 8:01 PM, LeBoiteux said:

I am indeed very interested by your finding.

How did you succeed in identifying that plan as Monton d'Oro ? That plan shows no name. Did you find another similar plan with the name Monton ? Does Antonio Nadale, who drew that plan, mention the name in the text of his book ?

You describe the Monton as a 24-gun Corvette. The current plan shows less than 24 guns (maybe max 2x9 guns + 2x2 on the quarterdeck, ie max 22 guns, maybe 20), doesn't it ?  

The plan is part of a book written by Nadale, Notizie 1729-1773. Would the Monton d'Oro, built in 1688 and destroyed in 1691, be part of it ? The plan is described as that of a "Fregata Leggera, 1701-1800". 

Shouldn't the Monton d'Oro as a 24-gun ship build in late 17-C be called a (light) frigate ?

Looking forward to information in your reply 

I sadly can't promise its the right ship for certain but its by far the most likely match, The records for ships I have list no others of her size, which as far as I know is the complete list of military vessels under the catagory of terzo rango and fregata leggara. The only other ship classes built or operated by the Venetian navy during the time period are the Madonna Sella Salute (44), Sant' Antonio da Padova (44), Nettuno (50), Scudo della Fede (52), Constanza (28), Palma (38), Pallade (24), Cerere (32), and an unnamed 44 Cannoni (Muiron/Carrere). Pallade being a single deck ship with no quarterdeck armed with 24 20lb guns, her class is also constructed using different framing methods after the Emo reforms in the 1780s.

The other possibilities are that she was a hired vessel, which seems unlikely because the Venetian navy thought it insulting to either hire sailors from foreign territories or ships from private individuals. She also has water lines not too dissimilar to the San Carlo Borromeo, a much larger ship that was built with very conservative features and deemed a relatively poor ship in comparison to her predecessor, the ironically much more modern design of Leon Trionfante.

To answer your question about the guns, she has 12 on each side, you perhaps missed the one situated at the very rear of the quarterdeck, the source doesn't state how they were distributed but its more than likely there would be 18 guns on the gundeck, with the 4 heaviest 20lb nearest the waist, with 14 of the 12lb guns flanking them, where as the quarterdeck would likely have a couple of 12lb at the most forwards point, with the 4 6lb guns closest to the stern, a system that was eventually abandoned in favour of having single weightings on each deck so as to ease confusion in battle, a change mostly brought about by adoption of the line of battle, something that never really took off in Venice due to the composition of the Venetian fleet.

When it comes to the ship itself, I was in a hurry writing the post, its likely shes not the Monton d'Oro but I used the class name to write the post, not the ship itself, the drawing of ship itself is much more likely to be the Abbondanza e Ricchezza, who operated into the 18th century, unlike her nameship sister, who as you point out from my post was destoryed in 1691, Its also likely he sourced the information that was available for publish from the Arsenal records, something that was kept from open released while ships were in current service.

Fregata leggara is light frigate, she is however both a fregata leggara and a fregata corvetta. Fregata being a word that started to be used in Italy some time in the mid to late 17th century, while corvetta came into use at the turn of the 17th and 18th, and was used as part of the re-evaluation of Venetian ratings, something that took place gradually between 1710-20 that saw the integration between the traditional system of primo, secondo, terzo and quarto rango with the new system of rating frigates separately, the fregata grossa, leggara and corvetta.

I hope this helps, let me know if there is anything else that you want to know more detail about, I hope this clears a few things up, as with many of these things I can't say that the ship is but this is the best educated assumption I can make

Edited February 26, 2017 by Fluffy Fishy

[LeBoiteux]

Thx for that long reply !!

In fact, the plan might be as well :

• a abandonned project for the Venetian Navy
• a first draft of a 18-C Corvette before finalisation
• a plan from a published compilation of works, not necessary of built ships
• or a plan for a customer country, right ?

About the gun "situated at the very rear of the quarterdeck", isn't it the lateral window (above a balcony) of the sculpted stern ?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2017 by LeBoiteux