Ship Philosophy: English Heavy Ships vs. American Sleek Ships

[William the Drake]

I am in the process of reading The Captain Who Burned His Ships, a biography of Thomas Tingey, captain in the Continental Navy, Commandant of the Washington Naval Yard, and Commodore in the U.S. Navy, by Gordon Brown. The book cites Tingey's apparent aversion to the American philosophy of ship design, which called for fast, maneuverable ships, while preferring the English design of stout, solid ships (perhaps due to his initial employment in the Royal Navy).

 

The book reads that Tingey "...as a product of the Royal Navy, he had always preferred sturdy ships over sleek, tall-masted American models." (114, Brown)

 

Earlier in the book, it refers to Josiah Fox, a naval constructor stationed at the Washington Naval Yard alongside Tingey: "...[Fox] and Tingey both leaned toward the British model in ship design, which put sturdiness and reliability over the American penchant  for speed and maneuverability..."

 

I figured, should Naval Action continue to use only historical models, that the difference between styles would naturally become apparent. However, it would be nice to consciously know that picking a faction meant more than simply picking what flag to fly, and make choosing a faction also a choice of ship and play style.  

 

The 1800s begins to fall out of my realm of knowledge concerning naval warfare, so I will rely and give precedent to other members who know more about this topic than I do; in this case I am simply a curious messenger.

Edited June 5, 2015 by William the Drake

[Prater]

Which is heavier, an American 44 or the older model British 74 around during the War of 1812?

[NorthernWolves]

This is during the revolution when America had no official Navy or fleet and sailed whatever she it could get ahold of. Most of these ships were private vessels, privateers and Dutch and French built.

 

True American ship design went completely the opposite direction once congress laid down orders for the first six frigates.

 

I recommend reading 'Six Frigates' and then 'Ships of Oak, Guns of Iron' to start with. America, due to unlimited timber access and a small navy made a name for designing overbuilt ships, the thickest scantlings per ton on the sea and used the finest oaks, including being the only nation to use the hyper-dense Southern Live Oak for frames.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkclwlg93irw4o7/Con%20Research%20Quotes.pdf?dl=0

[NorthernWolves]

The British did make stronger hulls, generally, than the French and especially the Spanish, but she had nothing to compare to the 6 frigates the US began building in 1797. Even her 'answer' to these 'overbuilt' ships, the Leander and Endymion were nothing like the big 3 in scantling and construction.

[maturin]

Is Gordon Brown a specialist or does he cite any? Whenever an author talks about vessel speed and maneuverability in the same terms as you would discuss a WWII fighter aircraft or motorbike, you can pretty much stop listening.

 

Does anyone imagine that any of the major shipbuilding countries didn't prize speed? As for maneuverability, the British clung to their diminutive frigates longer than anyone else (for economic reasons), which would have resulted in very handy vessels.

 

I imagine the author is talking about (small vessel) clipper-type designs that compromise on the ability of a vessel to carry guns. That's not really a design philosophy, since it's a total dead end once you actually set about building a frigate. The British and French had their light go-fast smugglers too.

 

It is true, of course, that the Americans liked extreme rigs, motivated by a desire for speed. Of course, that's not an absolute advantage if you have strike your topmasts all the time or risk capsize.

[Rafael]

I would not consider those 6 ships built under special order typical of US ship design at that point in time they were a one off and even still didnt 3 of them end up being built to smaller dimensions? Early US had a large merchant navy i would assume how were US built merchant vs the European powers?

[NorthernWolves]

Drake, Rafael, how much have either of you actually researched about this subject?

[Alex Connor]

British ships were not as a rule slow...

 

Indeed the fastest frigates of the era were either british, french or british copies of french designs. Not just the Endymion, the Newcastle (14kts) and Leander (13.5kts) were also superlatively fast, and almost every British 18 pdr frigate (even the smaller 36 gun types) could make 13kts. This despite the Royal Navy's reluctance to build bigger ships than they strictly needed, in general they never took the initiative in creating larger types and stuck with existing ship sizes until an enemy advance forced their hand.

[William the Drake]

Drakel, how much have either of you actually researched about this subject?

 

The 1800s begins to fall out of my realm of knowledge concerning naval warfare, so I will rely and give precedent to other members who know more about this topic than I do; in this case I am simply a curious messenger.

[Sir. Cunningham]

I don't think it was till 1808 or so that the British started building ships with hull strength equivalant to the American super frigates, but these were ships of the line not frigates. First one that comes to mind is the 120 gun HMS Caledonia with its zero space framing coupled with an extra interior X frame, making her probably the stiffest ship around during the time of her operational debut.

 

[maturin]

I would not consider those 6 ships built under special order typical of US ship design at that point in time they were a one off and even still didnt 3 of them end up being built to smaller dimensions? Early US had a large merchant navy i would assume how were US built merchant vs the European powers?

Between the War of Independence and 1812 the Americans did built a lot of merchantmen that prized speed over cargo capacity, since they couldn't rely on the navy to protect them. It was probably that experience that set us up to revolutionize the science of speed under sail for decades to come, after the wars.