"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA 2.9.1 "Major Powers update"

[Liondrome]

In 1925 France gets access to a second Light Cruiser V (instead of it being named Light Cruiser VI).

[o Barão]

25 minutes ago, Liondrome said:

In 1925 France gets access to a second Light Cruiser V (instead of it being named Light Cruiser VI).

Thanks. Fixed for the next update.

[NathanKell]

32 minutes ago, PalaiologosTheGreat said:

Do you think it's possible to make a mod where ships turn better? For example, I find that ships often overshoot the turn and they have to move their rudder the other way.

Their PID isn't tuned right. It's nontrivial because it needs to be tuned based on the actual ship properties, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just use constant values for their PID. It's an issue we know well in Kerbal.

If you're unfamiliar with PIDs, it's worth looking them up briefly to get an overview. Basically PIDs are a way to handle target-seeking, especially in a system where there is non-instantaneous change in rate of change (in UAD's case where you can't start or stop turning instantly, instead your angular velocity gradually increases or decreases).

1 hour ago, Sir David Green said:

Find anything with the save?

As I said below:

4 hours ago, NathanKell said:

@Sir David Greenthanks for the save! I'll look as soon as I have a chance.

 

[o Barão]

BETA 2.2 "Major Powers update"- N.A.R. changelog:

• Updated to UAD 1.6.0.5 Optx2
• Improvements to all heavy cruisers designed by the AI to reach a good design faster.
• Increased the weight probability for the AI to use triple or quads if available,
• Reworked chinese command ship looks
• Changed some towers from the modern Italian battleships to improve their look.
• Fixed the 8" CA Austrian mk2 size.
• French x2 light cruiser V name scheme fixed.

The players should notice a general performance improvement in starting a new campaign in comparison to a week before. 

 

Files edited:

• params
• partsModel
• parts

Edited September 11 by o Barão

[PalaiologosTheGreat]

1 hour ago, NathanKell said:

If you're unfamiliar with PIDs, it's worth looking them up briefly to get an overview. Basically PIDs are a way to handle target-seeking, especially in a system where there is non-instantaneous change in rate of change (in UAD's case where you can't start or stop turning instantly, instead your angular velocity gradually increases or decreases).

 

That brings back some unpleasant class memories... However, I think I can find a good PID formula that approximates ship-turning. I'll try and see if that fixes that.

 

Which .csv file can I edit?

[Pappystein]

1 hour ago, o Barão said:

BETA 2.2 "Major Powers update"- N.A.R. changelog:

• Updated to UAD 1.6.0.5 Optx2
• Improvements to all heavy cruisers designed by the AI to reach a good design faster.
• Increased the weight probability for the AI to use triple or quads if available,
• Reworked chinese command ship looks
• Changed some towers from the modern Italian battleships to improve their look.
• Fixed the 8" CA Austrian mk2 size.
• French x2 light cruiser V name scheme fixed.

The players should notice a general performance improvement in starting a new campaign in comparison to a week before. 

 

Files edited:

• params
• partsModel
• parts

Wow,  Appreciate your dedication and work!  These changes are looking amazing.
Also thanks to NathanKell and MDHansen for their efforts in conjunction with your work!

[NathanKell]

4 hours ago, PalaiologosTheGreat said:

 

That brings back some unpleasant class memories... However, I think I can find a good PID formula that approximates ship-turning. I'll try and see if that fixes that.

 

Which .csv file can I edit?

Won't be in a csv. I'll have to write code to clobber the existing game code to replace the steering AI with new code, which can then load your values. On the plus side, I should be able to get you MOI and torque to feed into your tuning.

[CenturionsofRome]

Any chance you can get damage to stop spreading across the citadel boundary? It would allow AoN schemes to finally be viable.

[o Barão]

26 minutes ago, CenturionsofRome said:

Any chance you can get damage to stop spreading across the citadel boundary? It would allow AoN schemes to finally be viable.

damage_section_spread_mod,0.6,multiplier for damage spreading to other sections (vanilla values is around 0.9xx something)

 

Try this modifier in the params. Set to 0 or 0.1 and run some tests.

Note: not only about the citadel limits but also how damage is being applied on torpedo hits, or big caliber HE on DDs, etc.

[Peksern]

Should this conflict be possible after declaring peace? Especially, since the region of cameroon was just given to me from the germans with that peace?

[o Barão]

BETA 2.3 "Major Powers update"- N.A.R. changelog:

• Updated to UAD 1.6.0.5 Opt x2
• Improved AI ship building for all french pre dreadnoughts available from 1890-1900
• Important changes to secondaries: dds secondary limited to 2"; Cl 2"-3"*
• Changed the torpedo space needed modifier to make it easier for the AI to get a design.*

*This changes was needed to help the AI to get a good design quicker. As an example, CL with 4" secondaries could make the AI go above the tonnage limit and reset for another try.

 

However, I can't say atm if this can cause any issue to your current campaign, in that case don't bother to update for the moment.

 

Important: It is recommended to update "TweaksAndFixes" Dll

 

Pre dreadnoughts french AI designs examples. For the most part, very good imo, with only few situations where we can see empty positions that could be filled with a minor secondary, but still better and faster.

Edited September 11 by o Barão

[o Barão]

Important: I forgot to mention. It is recommended to update "TweaksAndFixes" Dll

[PalaiologosTheGreat]

2 hours ago, o Barão said:

Pre dreadnoughts french AI designs examples

 

Unironically looks better than actual French ships of the period lmao

[admiralsnackbar]

On 9/9/2024 at 10:35 AM, o Barão said:

But there are wars between nations sharing the same frontier? If that is the case please upload your save file.

I'm going to send you this bin file, it's not from the most recent game version. I should be Russia at war with Germany. I haven't seen any red arrow offensives land-land. 

save_2.bin

[Peksern]

Question to the community: With NAR, which type of shells do you use?

I tried several approaches, but came to the result, that the capped (balistics) both HE and AP are the best options at pretty much every ship:

1st: They offer the highest range and therefore the best accuracy
2nd: Compared to any other shell types, they do care the least about enemy armor --> continiously good damage dealt 
3rd: Since they pen or overpen most, they cause floodings most easily and sink ships much faster than nose fuze or semi piercing shells.

Yet I know that most guides would say, that it depends on the type of ship and its purpose. And to be honest, I don't know exactly, why? Do you agree with me? Or do I make grave mistakes?

[antifleshnimbus]

Hi, I jump back into the mod after a longer break and realized that I cant put 4" and 5" guns into protectet cruisers anymore. Is this a bug or is this on purpose?

[spinaker]

About land battles - I haven't seen any red arrows yet. About diplomacy - very often warring countries offer me peace and despite my consent, they want to continue fighting.  It seems to me that these are the moments that should be corrected.

[vscoof]

@o Barão
Sorry for asking this question again but is it possible to issue the mod not only via libraries for melonloader but also in modded game files like it used to be for previous editions?
I keep struggling to make melon work on my PC, yet it keeps crashing or just gives me an "error 0xc0000005" warning.
I fully understand how many work it would take and how unpractical is for now when both the 1/6 vanilla game and the mod undergo various  improvements but still can it be done when it comes to some,let's say, BETA 2.7?

[Sir David Green]

2 hours ago, spinaker said:

About land battles - I haven't seen any red arrows yet. About diplomacy - very often warring countries offer me peace and despite my consent, they want to continue fighting.  It seems to me that these are the moments that should be corrected.

For me it seems to happen when I agree to peace and move away my ships away from them during that turn

[spinaker]

No, it's not like that. This also happens during the blockade, and at the same time, clashes at sea continue.

Edited September 11 by spinaker

[Pappystein]

4 hours ago, Peksern said:

Question to the community: With NAR, which type of shells do you use?

I tried several approaches, but came to the result, that the capped (balistics) both HE and AP are the best options at pretty much every ship:

1st: They offer the highest range and therefore the best accuracy
2nd: Compared to any other shell types, they do care the least about enemy armor --> continiously good damage dealt 
3rd: Since they pen or overpen most, they cause floodings most easily and sink ships much faster than nose fuze or semi piercing shells.

Yet I know that most guides would say, that it depends on the type of ship and its purpose. And to be honest, I don't know exactly, why? Do you agree with me? Or do I make grave mistakes?

So, I find ESP on the HE side, the the Capped rounds are an easy choice.  **HOWEVER** I find that yes they are mildly effective and a good baseline but they are not the best ALL ROUNDER.   I tend to have my big gun ships (Heavy Cruisers and Battleships) equipped with the capped ammo.   But my smaller ships I choose different ammunition types.   Between 8.5" and 4.5" I utilize base fused.  And sub 4.5" I utilize the LEFT MOST shot available (so eventually incendiary once I research it.

For ARMOR PIERCING rounds.   I also have a split.   This happens at 5" exactly.   5" and below it is always SAP once it is unlocked.  YES, it isn't as good as capped, etc.  But what it gives you is better shots on lightly armored targets with more damage and STILL an overpen possible for flooding.   For anything above 5.5" I utilize the best CAPPED ammo I can..

I tend to run my ships as follows

I try to run battleships with realistic scales.  That means you will never see me use more than a 17" Cannon.  But I typically keep Battleships to 10,12,13,14,15,16"  Depending on era. 

Battlecruisers, I TRY to run the same caliber as my current tech battleships (if there is an eqv class)  BUT I am willing to roll back ONE INCH in diameter if mass issues abound.

Heavy cruisers are all 9.0 inches main.  <--This is a good game gimic mostly because of how quickly 9 is updated and 8 is NOT updated early on.... seems retrograde to go down to 8 after that.

Light Cruisers are 6" once I unlock double turrets, but 4-5" prior to that

Destroyers start at 4.5" and work their way to 5"

Torpedo Boats/Gunboats   are exclusively 4" unless I can not fit 4" (deck space)

I probably should mention, most of the time, I stick with whole number, Imperial calibers (3" 4" 16" etc)  I do not like how the game had scaled "upsizing" the shells in the past and I haven't tried in recent history.   Unless a weapon I am making specifically replicates a REAL weapon (eg 5.25" for Royal Navy) I stay with the whole inch sizes.

Edited September 11 by Pappystein

[PalaiologosTheGreat]

Is it possible to make the AI not declare war on you if it doesn’t have shipyards/naval bases in the area? 
 

I don’t think Greece should be able to declare war on Japan or South America as it would just cause the Greek ships to lose fuel and die in 30 seconds 

[Maximus Tyberius]

2 and 3 in guns Should Never be doubles or triples except when anti air arrays  are developed and then they only should be double or quad but never triple. Turreted double 2 or 3 in guns look incredibly goofy...

[SpardaSon21]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:21 PM, NathanKell said:

Their PID isn't tuned right. It's nontrivial because it needs to be tuned based on the actual ship properties, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just use constant values for their PID. It's an issue we know well in Kerbal.

 

I can't remember which update but it used to be working perfectly fine at one point before naturally the devs broke it in one of their "realism" updates.

 

9 hours ago, Pappystein said:

I probably should mention, most of the time, I stick with whole number, Imperial calibers (3" 4" 16" etc)  I do not like how the game had scaled "upsizing" the shells in the past and I haven't tried in recent history.   Unless a weapon I am making specifically replicates a REAL weapon (eg 5.25" for Royal Navy) I stay with the whole inch sizes.

I'm with you.  I primarily play USA and using anything that wasn't an actual caliber of ours rubs me the wrong way.  I'll make exceptions for "things we plausibly might have used", like 2.2" (we used some of those early on as anti-TB weapons and so they're a plausible alt-hist weapon) and 3.5" guns (historical US Army caliber, could be potentially navalized).

[o Barão]

10 hours ago, vscoof said:

@o Barão
Sorry for asking this question again but is it possible to issue the mod not only via libraries for melonloader but also in modded game files like it used to be for previous editions?
I keep struggling to make melon work on my PC, yet it keeps crashing or just gives me an "error 0xc0000005" warning.
I fully understand how many work it would take and how unpractical is for now when both the 1/6 vanilla game and the mod undergo various  improvements but still can it be done when it comes to some,let's say, BETA 2.7?

NAR and Taf from Nathan now on work together. Without Taf, I would lose all the new modifiers to force the AI to build good ships or the possibility of having more nations, among other features.