nebsif Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 .. Another issue along a similar vein is the conquering/exploitation of indigenous peoples. All corners of the globe were occupied by people, some who had not developed sophisticated trans-oceanic transportation or more modern weaponry to defend themselves (opportunity for gun running then?). To portray them as pawns in a game, as something to be beaten down in order to extract local resources more effectively is again not going to sit well with segments of the public. Not meaning to appear as PC here, but bad press is not needed to sell a game or tarnish its reputation before it has had a chance to be established. I wouldn't want Naval Action to be labelled as 'that slave game'... lol this is exactly Europa Universalis and there are 4 of them with slavery in the 4th, so i'd guess if it bugged so many people they'd remove it by now I even tried to do some quick research, googled; "europa universalis slavery" and "europa universalis racist" - found direct link to a negative review article about the game and a reddit link to said article, with people defending the game in both reddit and review site comments. Article rated 2/5 by the readers btw. BTW, Any publicity is good publicity as long as the product doesnt suck, like One plus One and their invites. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SYN_Bloody-Bandy Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Limited time this morning, mind telling us how it is implemented in that game? Do players trade directly in African slaves? Still, maintain that it would be better to keep it to NPC's only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galileus Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm against the custom "it's taboo, games can't handle it!" approach. Especially since other media forms supposedly can. That doesn't mean I'm all in for including taboos in a game just because. And this is why this post, that could be huge, will be short and simple. Touchy topics are touchy, and obviously need a proper handling. The first and foremost thing you need to check on your list is - what does it add to my game? Exactly - what does it add to the game? Can anyone answer that? A new cargo? So? Wouldn't adding cotton do the same? Then why go for the touchy subject, that, as proven time and time again on this forums is touchy? An ability to take enemy crew as cargo? You get the same for just getting their cargo. Ability to get rid of enemy crew? Well, throw them overboard, same effect. Illegal goods? Don't need no slaves for that. Chance of slave riots? Crews ain't good enough? And so on, and so on... If only reason for picking up a taboo is to pick up a taboo, why bother? And if you do it to be edgy, well, my thoughts on you are not well suited for these forums. So again - why? And this is a honest question. I see this topic come up and stir some opposite views, and I ain't even interested. From gaming viewpoint it's bland addition that doesn't really do anything on it's own. Normally, it would be just "meh". And as this topic is loaded... well, why go for it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlindoBerto Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 We cant forget the past guys, we cant be ashamed of it to the point at we dont accept the past, we must look to it and learn... slavery is now out of question, but at the time it was still a pillar of the economies. I look into this with carefull eyes, it must be historical accurate as everything else, because if its not propperly done it will make us believe on wrong things.. it will be interesting to see the ingame influence that the portuguese abolition of slavery had on the slave trade itself, if this is done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 it will be interesting to see the ingame influence that the portuguese abolition of slavery had on the slave trade itself, if this is done... I thought for the games era, it wasnt fully abolished by the Portuguese yet (with semi attempts but no real full scale removal) and was only done in the 1830s along with most of mainland europe due to British pressure which might be a bit after the time of "open world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlindoBerto Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 No, it was fully abolished, although it returned to the ultramarine colonies only, after Marquês de Pombal was expelled..in practise in modern portugal remained abolished. the point is, i know that there was an influence on the slave trade itself, but i know almost nothing about it...its not a big chapter of our history.. we abolished in 1750s i think.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'm against the custom "it's taboo, games can't handle it!" approach. Especially since other media forms supposedly can. That doesn't mean I'm all in for including taboos in a game just because. And this is why this post, that could be huge, will be short and simple. Touchy topics are touchy, and obviously need a proper handling. The first and foremost thing you need to check on your list is - what does it add to my game? Exactly - what does it add to the game? Can anyone answer that? A new cargo? So? Wouldn't adding cotton do the same? Then why go for the touchy subject, that, as proven time and time again on this forums is touchy? An ability to take enemy crew as cargo? You get the same for just getting their cargo. Ability to get rid of enemy crew? Well, throw them overboard, same effect. Illegal goods? Don't need no slaves for that. Chance of slave riots? Crews ain't good enough? And so on, and so on... If only reason for picking up a taboo is to pick up a taboo, why bother? And if you do it to be edgy, well, my thoughts on you are not well suited for these forums. So again - why? And this is a honest question. I see this topic come up and stir some opposite views, and I ain't even interested. From gaming viewpoint it's bland addition that doesn't really do anything on it's own. Normally, it would be just "meh". And as this topic is loaded... well, why go for it? Other media can "handle" it because, if you'll notice, none of those movies, books, cartoons, etc. generally have the "good guys" slaving. The good guy is always the one helping slaves to escape, or make it onto the railroad, or is liberating them in his man of war. Books, generally the same. You don't see a mainstream book where the lead character is out slaving. Gaming is different, and the news is looking for an angle. Let's imagine this article stinger: "Meet Bob. Bob is your average person, living in an apartment in New York. What you might not know about this paper salesman who grew up in Toledo is that he makes a profit by owning and trading African slaves." Main Article: "Bob plays a game called Naval Action, in which, trading in chained African slaves is a lucrative profession. "Sure, you lose a bunch on the crossing, and that cuts into profits" Bob tells us, "but the ones you have left, the ones that aren't too sick at least, more than make up for the cost of the journey. Oh look, here's the Caribbean Mansion I bought with the profits! I can even use the slaves to reduce the cost of the sugarcane I grow to sell to other players...." It's bad. It's just bad all the way around. It's ripe for players to abuse with racist and derogatory names, clan names, etc. It allows a tiny company like Naval Action to open themselves up to retaliatory lawsuits by various "rights" organizations, protests, boycotts, and even hacking and DDOS attacks by "socially conscious" hacker groups. While a huge company like Sony just makes a call over to the legal department to have lawyers respond to frivolous lawsuits and other legal actions, a group of folks like Game Labs doesn't have that luxury, nor the extra money around to spend hundreds of thousands defending themselves in court. It's not about forgetting history, or covering things up, it's about profits in a litigious and racially charged political environment. Slavery is a huge can of worms, it is not a core feature necessary for a game about the age of sail to succeed. If you want to make a mission "stop the slave ship", or "bombard the slave trading towns to get them to stop", great. That's a heroic action that nobody can find fault with. If you want to make slaves a trading commodity, let's just stop right there and say no, it's not worth the crap-storm that such things will land on NA's doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Arlindo is correct. Portugal was the very first colonial power to abolish slavery as a institution, same with capital crime death penalty. But we are used to being overlooked in history books on all these "non important" matters, right ? It is the price of being the oldest "global village" But this is a game and as I see it, and given broken conventions, slavery in a colonial era game is like cannibalism in DayZ. It is subject of prolonged discussion and having Ivory trade or Slave snatching has the same moral issues. All is good as the Devs decide. Having this or that trade in game or not will not make it better or worse. It is "historical consultant" preference and producers decision regarding the markets. Pretty much like military symbols in other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas aagaard Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 "Bob plays a game called Naval Action, in which, trading in chained African slaves is a lucrative profession. "Sure, you lose a bunch on the crossing, and that cuts into profits" Bob tells us, "but the ones you have left, the ones that aren't too sick at least, more than make up for the cost of the journey. Oh look, here's the Caribbean Mansion I bought with the profits! I can even use the slaves to reduce the cost of the sugarcane I grow to sell to other players...." Bob also play a game called Rome II. In it he love attacking his neighbors and taking slaves that can work i his fields. And when he play Sid Meyers colonization he loves committing genocide against the different Indian nations... A large % of all games are actions that is morally unacceptable by some people somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rithal Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 The developers have already told us that there are no plans for slave trade at the moment, however, I would like to continue this discussion to show how the points you made are flawed. The media seems to be ok with games like Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row right? "Meet Bob. Bob is your average person, living in an apartment in New York. What you might not know about this paper salesman who grew up in Toledo is that he makes a profit by owning and trading African slaves." Main Article: "Bob plays a game called Naval Action, in which, trading in chained African slaves is a lucrative profession. "Sure, you lose a bunch on the crossing, and that cuts into profits" Bob tells us, "but the ones you have left, the ones that aren't too sick at least, more than make up for the cost of the journey. Oh look, here's the Caribbean Mansion I bought with the profits! I can even use the slaves to reduce the cost of the sugarcane I grow to sell to other players...." Bob also plays a game called Grand Theft Auto 4, where he plays as a veteran of a (presumably Yugoslavian) army that committed war crimes and atrocities during the duration of the conflict. Bob's character now is involved in multiple crime rings in a fictional New York city, where he kills rival gangs, cops, and random civilians at will. Bob also plays a game called Mafia II, where he plays as Vito Scaletta who makes a living working for mobsters killing anyone and everyone he is asked to kill for money. With this money, Bob buys cars clothes, and more weapons to kill even more people. Virtual slavery isn't any worse than virtual murder. It's just that casual gamers have become "hardened" to games like this. Slavery in a game is just so "edgy" that most people are turned off to the idea for historical value and authenticity. On second thought, you are right. I kind of feel bad for the virtual slaves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino.707 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I agree, there should be no slaves in game, as there are plenty of other trade goods to fill the hold with.... like...rum, bananas, coffee, tobacco, textiles, lumber, tulip bulbs, and yes, even gold and silver. The list could be quite extensive without the use of slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas aagaard Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 So it is fine that slaved was worked to death in the mines to make the silver and gold or in the sugar plantations or... but actually moving the slaves is too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino.707 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 It is a bit of controversy, and does indeed require debate. After all, Eve online, the largest and most sophisticated trading mechanism of any MMO does have slaves in it, but I guess this is a bit different in that, it is more of a historical game sim, rather than, a fictitious one. If it is to be historical, then include slaves, but if intended to be just a game, with trade being a means to make money to buy/sell and maintain your ships, then slaves may not be the best commodity to include, being respectful of the feelings of those who have that in their history. I leave it to the devs to decide. It will be their name that goes on the game, and not mine. Whatever happens though, it should always be noted that a discussion ensued at great length, and the developers decided on their course of action as a result of the discussions. It is after all, a slave trader who gave us the song Amazing Grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonsStyle Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 In the real world, I'm absolutely against it of course, but in a game, well, it's a game. So I'm fine with it in a game. Star Citizen even is having slaves in it, so I see no problem with it in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rithal Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 It is a bit of controversy, and does indeed require debate. After all, Eve online, the largest and most sophisticated trading mechanism of any MMO does have slaves in it, but I guess this is a bit different in that, it is more of a historical game sim, rather than, a fictitious one. If it is to be historical, then include slaves, but if intended to be just a game, with trade being a means to make money to buy/sell and maintain your ships, then slaves may not be the best commodity to include, being respectful of the feelings of those who have that in their history. I leave it to the devs to decide. It will be their name that goes on the game, and not mine. Whatever happens though, it should always be noted that a discussion ensued at great length, and the developers decided on their course of action as a result of the discussions. It is after all, a slave trader who gave us the song Amazing Grace. Slavery is in all of our backgrounds for the most part. Not just those whose great great great great great grandparents were slaves, but also those who grew up where slavery existed. It haunts us just as much as those who had slaves farther up their family tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino.707 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I concur, actually it still occurs today in child labor (sweat shops), and the sex trade, so maybe having it in game brings the discussion forward to keep attention on it. On a side note, I would also like to see paying passengers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SYN_Bloody-Bandy Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yes, I feel like a slave when I'm on any American air carrier now-a-days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5KnuckleChuckle Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think we can be historical without including slavery. Yes, it happened, however, such a bleak spot in human history doesn't need to be placed in a game that is meant to be fun in my opinion. Much like excluding women as ship captains, it's just an unnecessary bow to history. Lol! political correctness white knighting alert! Christ, this stuff drives me crazy. It's alright to create a game with pirates, many of which historically tortured, raped and killed captives but mention the slave trade and "oh no, we can't do that" give me a break. I guess the raping and pillaging was alright because those were white folks. Sorry but this kind of double standard crap really gets under my skin. It happened, it is historically accurate to the time and for those merchants willing to climb that morale mountain, it was one of if not the most lucrative cargo to transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Yeah, you should have posted a photo of the US Capitol Building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Admin has already commented on this subject at http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3154-slave-trade-preferences/page-3?p=63731#entry63731 . In short: this discussion went the wrong way. If you want trading with Africa you can trade ivory or diamonds If you want slave trading - you in reality want to bring slavery topic into the game, not trading Woody Allen once said: You should put a kiss in the movie only if the movie really requires it. Dropping this topic completely will not make the game worse, but the fact that this subject is not in the game may even make this game better for some potential players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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