realism Realistic Sailing

[Kaptann]

This topic about physics of sailing

Purpose=More realistic game play

1.)Simple example about Physics

While Sailng you must always consider dragging force and lifting force and there is a opposite force which is rudder force.Sail force is forward of hull force by amount 'L', boat will turn downwind unless rudder force is used to correct

As you see there is a need for continuous rudder force depends on wind direction and wind force and hull angle

and most important of them is  sail trim quality(Because Sail trim quailty effects all of them)

 

 

2.)İdeas for game content

+Adjustable Rudder by degrees(Like ship simulation games,)

+Wind Force (Strong Wind, medium wind, gale, etc. İ know there is a topic about wind force)

+Sail trim quality(Maybe it can be depends on number of sailing crew, Sailed miles,crew rigging quality, maybe officer ability ) 

+Speed adjustment depends on rudder positon(higher degrees will decreases speed )

 

3.)What İ expected:

-Realism

-We will not bored while sailing in battles

-Harder and mindful battles(harder to create line and staying in line)

-Need to consider wind advantage (Captains will not want to lose wind)

-Abilty to create advantage from disadvantage situaton(if you have good rigging and assign all your crew to sail then you can reach your max speed while your enemies realoading guns)

 

Exemples

1.)if u set your rudder to 30° it will stay until you change it  

1.) if dont set your sails, ship will be turn to the upwind 

2.)

Ship=Victory                                                    Ship=Victory                                                  Ship=Victory

Wind=Strong from right(90°to the hull)               Wind=Strong from right(90°to the hull)              Wind=Strong from back right(135°to the hull)(That will decrease angle and aerodynamiclift)

Crew on sailing= 300                                       Crew on sailing= 200                                            Crew on sailing= 200

Rigging Quality= good                                      Rigging Quality= good                                          Rigging Quality= Bad

==                                                                             ==                                                            ==

Expected Speed= 10.1kn                                 Expected Speed= 9.5kn                                      Expected Speed= 10.3kn

Expected Rudder Degrees=100                      Expected Rudder Degrees=110                          Expected Rudder Degrees=115

RUDDER= (left)0__|__ 180(right)  (90°is middle)

                    İ try to explain,Sorry for my bad english

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Kaptann

[Macjimm]

This would be a significant change to the game.  

Implemented in OW it may increase the skill required to sail slowly.   At least at low speeds Navigation would involve more thought that just setting a heading and waiting.  At high speed I doubt it would make any difference. the yaw angle would be negligible because the wind effect would likely be cancelled out at the extreme speeds we can attain.   Imagine how much effect the wind has on a speedboat.    Unless the wind effect was increased relative to a increase in speed to model the net effect as if the ship was NOT rocketing along like a stone skipping across the waves.   

[Kaptann]

1 hour ago, Macjimm said:

This would be a significant change to the game.  

Implemented in OW it may increase the skill required to sail slowly.   At least at low speeds Navigation would involve more thought that just setting a heading and waiting.  At high speed I doubt it would make any difference. the yaw angle would be negligible because the wind effect would likely be cancelled out at the extreme speeds we can attain.   Imagine how much effect the wind has on a speedboat.    Unless the wind effect was increased relative to a increase in speed to model the net effect as if the ship was NOT rocketing along like a stone skipping across the waves.   

Yes you got point but it is not for open world, just for battles.

İn battles we are using vessels like cars at least wind must be more effective for our desicions in battles 

in fact if there is a storm or like that in battles captains need to be carefull for their masts and rudders which can be brakeable

                     

 

[Snoopy]

More sailing stuff would be awesome (like having control over the spanker), but I'd be careful - it could harm the game. For example if it's too hard to regain the wind this will take a lot of fun and variability out of combat. Having the weather gauge is already a very potent component of ship fights in Naval Action.

We can already heave to, tack, wear and box haul in Naval Action.

Fully rigged ships don't normally need nor want rudder off center to keep the ship on course if they can help it (more drag). The rudder is for short term adjustments (and maneuvering), the balance of the sail configuration is what keeps the ship on it's heading.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Snoopy

[Remus]

I was delighted to find this game uses mast forces, yard angles and manual bracing, even to the extent of having negative polars (though the luffing angles are still far too forgiving). I don't really hope for each individual sail to be modelled, which is effectively what you are asking for. If you want the ship to sail differently you adjust the sails first. Square riggers have considerably more scope for this than fore-and-aft rigged vessels - just study pictures of ships sailing in different weather conditions and different wind angles.

I suspect the model is actually quite simple; bowsprits don't appear to be modelled (I lost mine yet had no problem paying off the wind - I think I even tacked with impunity), and I'd hazard a guess that mizzen masts aren't modelled either.

It is clear that the visual depiction of a ship doesn't reflect the modelling; the spanker does nothing, alternatively it always helps turn the boat into the wind whether you are at full sails or half sails (which is when it visually furls, iirc).

But I would like intermediate rudder positions. I have been trying to work out whether rudder angle acts as a drag but haven't come to any firm conclusion, but this probably means it isn't causing nearly as much drag as full rudder should, which might in turn mean that rudder angle might not actually matter.

I look forward to reading some replies from people who actually understand sailing mechanics in this game

[Snoopy]

10 minutes ago, Remus said:

I was delighted to find this game uses mast forces, yard angles and manual bracing, even to the extent of having negative polars (though the luffing angles are still far too forgiving). I don't really hope for each individual sail to be modelled, which is effectively what you are asking for. If you want the ship to sail differently you adjust the sails first. Square riggers have considerably more scope for this than fore-and-aft rigged vessels - just study pictures of ships sailing in different weather conditions and different wind angles.

I suspect the model is actually quite simple; bowsprits don't appear to be modelled (I lost mine yet had no problem paying off the wind - I think I even tacked with impunity), and I'd hazard a guess that mizzen masts aren't modelled either.

It is clear that the visual depiction of a ship doesn't reflect the modelling; the spanker does nothing, alternatively it always helps turn the boat into the wind whether you are at full sails or half sails (which is when it visually furls, iirc).

But I would like intermediate rudder positions. I have been trying to work out whether rudder angle acts as a drag but haven't come to any firm conclusion, but this probably means it isn't causing nearly as much drag as full rudder should, which might in turn mean that rudder angle might not actually matter.

I look forward to reading some replies from people who actually understand sailing mechanics in this game

Yeah the close hauled performance is probably way exaggerated.
Which is a good thing, because it makes recovery of positions in combat a possibility, and I feel makes for a more enjoyable game.

Losing the bowsprit and headsails is very noticeable on some ships (Santi..). Smaller ships can indeed run in circles with impunity in the game.

The spanker actually works: try heaving to with sails in the "depowered" state (T key) - the spanker will slowly rotate your ship and you need much more sail backing to compensate.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Snoopy

[Hethwill]

Could use less force close haul and really make the choice of position count. We still are many times over possibilities  Just look at the Cecilia, she disregards it. The Brigs, as long as you let the spanker go around free will bounce the wind and return across the tack with impunity.

It is indeed a great great game  I would like it to be just a little more... tactical with the wind usage. Just a bit.

[Macjimm]

6 hours ago, rupaka said:

Yes you got point but it is not for open world, just for battles.
İn battles we are using vessels like cars at least wind must be more effective for our desicions in battles
in fact if there is a storm or like that in battles captains need to be carefull for their masts and rudders which can be brakeable

I would like to experience a greater wind effect in BOTH battles and OW.  Wouldn't care if the wind did not affect high speeds ships in OW.  Might even be better as it would provide an option for those who prefer to go fast in OW and have the wind make little or no difference.
Regardless if the game ever employs more tactical wind that will exert detailed aerodynamic force on the direction of travel,  adding damage from wind, waves and shore would be a huge improvement. 

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, Rickard said:

have shown they have great difficulty with almost the simplest of mechanics.

 

This is actually not true. Not being enabled doesn't mean it is not done already

I remember when Land Ahoy patch hit the wind was changed and the community had a half-half reaction to it. Many praised it, many abhorred it - simply put and just as an example the Renomee sail plan did not go well if you pushed the envelope beyond beam reach. Likewise other ships had it too, Trincomalee for example.

Fighting for a while was odd, given everyone was used to... sail on rails...

Do we want more credible sailing or not ? It is on us, not if the devs do it or not

[Hethwill]

27 minutes ago, rediii said:

Just finish the nom combat related things right now because the combat is actually fun right now. The problem is that other things arent that fun right now

Yep.

[The Spud]

As long as doesn't require me to memorize a ton of keys to operate a ship, I would be allright with a little more sailing skills required in battle. It would realy make a chase come down to the better captain and not just chosing best angle and auto skipper.

However for new players it might be just that step too far, its allready a challenging game that takes many hours of sailing to get a grip of. Maybe give an auto option for anyone below flag cap.

I think a long time ago the devs mentioned something about different wind strenghts, and how a ship that is upwind could take away the wind from the ship in the downwind position, etc. But I can't remember if they ditched this or if they are going to add it later on.

Anyways, if it won't be implemented in the main servers, it would be a good thing to have in a speciel realism server. For the age of sail purists, with nation bound ships, different wind speeds, one dura ships, provisions, limited cannon shots/powder, x1 OW speed. etc...

[Hethwill]

I do not envision needing any more keys. Simply the strengths acting on the sail plans being more appropriate.

OW is a different system iirc, not so complex.

[maturin]

Spanker/headsail control and dynamic weather/lee helm would make battle maneuvers incredibly taxing and overwhelming.

 

Gusts and wind shifts are a feature that would revolutionize the chasing part of the game, but could be safely ignored in the heat of battle when half a knot is not so critical.