Surprise can Push a 2nd rate?

[Ned Loe]

Dear Devs, 

in last few days I was in couple of fights and in each one I noticed that a small Corvette Ship -Surprise can easily push 2nd rate Buc. and turn it into the wind, so it becomes crippled. Now I know you are building close to real mechanics game, but is this reality? or I am just being picky.

Can such small ship be able to push that massive beast? what if 2nd rate is pushing Surprise to the opposite side? Who should win the push game?  Imho definitely not the Surprise. 

Such trick is being abused on daily basis by gankers vs Large SOLs. They go side by side and slowly start turning the ship. 

If so, I suggest you to review the weight and force. 

[van der Clam]

I wouldn't think it possible, especially once turning into the wind, the pusher should lose wind as the 'inside' ship would be stealing it... So certainly a smaller ship would have nearly no wind at all.

[van der Clam]

Just now, Hodo said:

This would be an awesome fix for the situation and I stand behind this 250%!

 

We overbear all the time in competitive sailing

[Ned Loe]

It is possible, I witnessed it with my own eyes. 2nd rate was moving at 90 at medium speed, when Surprise got next to it and started the push. Eventually 2nd rate ended up dead in the wind. I did notice speed drop as well when ships are pushing each other. it did not look like he wanted to go close haul, but Surprise kept pushing him and ended up crossing the T. 

[van der Clam]

Just now, Wind said:

It is possible, I witnessed it with my own eyes. 2nd rate was moving at 90 at medium speed, when Surprise got next to it and started the push. Eventually 2nd rate ended up dead in the wind. I did notice speed drop as well when ships are pushing each other. 

Oh, I agree that it happens; happened to me many a time. I should've stated in my response. But I don't think it should happen in game.

[Ned Loe]

I think when something like this happens system should bounce the smaller ship 1-2 meters from larger one in order to prevent the slow down and turn. Something is not right with ship weight and wind force. 

[van der Clam]

The only way a smaller ship should be able to board is if the larger ship gets stuck in irons and they enemy swoop in pinning it. I've read somewhere in the forum the devs are working on more dynamic winds in battle. It will make broadside to broadside much harder for the overbearer to maintain speed...lots of manual sailing required. But it would be pretty cool if they can get the wind right.

[Fluffy Fishy]

It sounds possible to me depending on angles taken, its simple pivots, not to dissimilar to a tail rotor on a helicopter. It shouldn't be impossible to push a larger ship but it should certainly be tougher, T boning the bow or stern should work, and so should positions similar to American police and their Pitt manoeuvrer but the current system allows for ships almost in parallel to turn much larger ships at high speeds seems fairly unreasonable, although again not impossible. I feel like removing it from the game would take more out than gives but something needs to be looked at in a bit more depth.

On historical sides, its not unusual for smaller ships to pilot larger ones into port with their smaller sail patterns, so the force is there, especially considering the various options in game for running on less canvas, and its not like in game the reward is there without the risk, if you get it wrong you become a very easy target for boarding, but then again boarding likely gives the desired outcome for the turning party anyway.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, van der Decken said:

I wouldn't think it possible, especially once turning into the wind, the pusher should lose wind as the 'inside' ship would be stealing it... So certainly a smaller ship would have nearly no wind at all.

That and we seen the annoying thing of t-boning some one and them pushing your much bigger ship like there was zero drag caused by a ship.  The other night a Connnie tried to turn and stop an Intifatable (sp) by turning into him and T-Boneing him pretty much.  Well he wasn't able to push him (which was what he was trying to do) into the wind but got stuck in a perfect T-Bone and the Intifatable didn't even slow down.  Pushed him for a good long distance before the Connie broke loose and escaped sicne they where nearing KPR's fort guns.  That big of a ships drag from being crossed like that in front of a smaller ship would of stopped it dead in the wind (well slowed it the hell down).  I think there are problems with the collision models too. I have been in fleet missions and tried to board a ship that I was pushing.  The push breaks and they shoot off like a rocket.  They would not have that much stored up energy to go from 2.5 knts to 5-6 knts.  While I was showing below 3.5 knts and they where slowed with me I couldn't board cause of the stored energay or ghost speed the ship was going if you where locked up with each other.

[Fluffy Fishy]

27 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Not exactly the same thing... on any of those accounts.

A tail rotor is countering the torque of the main rotors motion, this does not have to be a large rotor or a powerful rotor as the amount of torque the main rotor generates is no where near the amount of lift/thrust it is generating. 

The Pitt maneuver is something completely different.  It is taking advantage in most car designs.  Ford, GM, and FCA all put an inertia fuel cut-off switch near the rear of the vehicle incase of a rear end collision that will disable the vehicle.  A hard enough impact will trip this switch and disable the vehicle.   On older vehicles that do not have this or on manual transmission vehicles, if you get them turned to past a certain angle you can cause the rear wheels to slowdown enough to stall the vehicle.    There is a pretty good video on this on Youtube.  (my dad was a cop for 20 years, and I worked law enforcement for 5 before injuries took me off the line)

And pilot boats, or "tug" boats are actually VERY powerful little boats, not at all like a Schooner trying to push a ship with 10x its sail area.   

 

I wasn't saying they were exactly the same thing, the helicopter point is about pivots and points of force, then applying them more towards what people are seeing through the example of the police Pit manoeuvre, which is an option to spin out cars under pursuit, even if its not the true mechanics of what is going on in real life the example still stands with the reference I was trying to make.

Historically small triangular sailed ships were used to pilot boats in and out of ports, as were rowed boats, I apologise if this wasn't as clear as it was intended to be, even if the force here is slightly different as a pull, not a push. The example still stands because it comes down to not being just about mass or sail area, but application of force, this is is why jibs, stay mizzen sails are much more important in turning than mainmasts, and when applied properly its not so much about the pure sail area, but localised forces between the force conducted possibly by the total sail area of the surprise, vs the restricted efficiency and usefulness of the Bucentaure's larger sail plan compared to the angle of the wind.

So no, it shouldn't be impossible to push a much larger ship into irons, but it should be a difficult and precise application of force, pivots and vectors, and only possible by travelling downwind in comparison to your opponents as was already covered earlier in the thread. The current system is too forgiving, where you can manipulate a larger ship from anywhere that isnt the centre 3rd but removing these mechanics would make things less realistic, not more. Having experienced this kind of thing multiple before, its also quite easy to counter with proper application of manual sails and rudder.

[Snoopy]

I don't think a Surprise can push a Bucentaure into irons, not alone.
Unless the Buc driver lets it happen or was otherwise disabled (in brace, demasted, boxed in by other ships etc). The Buc is a very heavy ship and can drag a Surprise embedded in it's side around the map all day.

[Sir William Hargood]

I would like to raise a question to the Devs regarding the above and the apparent vulnerability of Ships of the Line to much smaller Frigates who are able to stern camp SOLs and reduce their crews by stern raking and ultimately boarding them. The question is how far do we go to stick to historical accuracy/relevance and how much Harry Potter do we bring into the game. I would suggest that for a Frigate to effect any realistic damage in a stern rake she would have to be well within musket range if not cannon point blank range. Considering the vast crew and height advantage of the SOL what are the crew doing if they cannot bring their cannon to bear? Are the marines and mariners not manning the taff-rail with muskets raining down all hell on the weather deck of the Frigate? Ask yourself the question if SOLs were so vulnerable to frigates why aren't the history books full of such feats of valour. Simple, they weren't! It didn't happen! So why does it happen here so frequently?

Regarding what is described above I ask the same question. A frigate next to a SOL? Why aren't the rails of the SOL being manned and musket fire clearing the decks of the Frigate? Effectively this should reduce the ability of the Frigate to maneuver, man the sails and to crew the weather deck. This should apply to the impetuous frigate stern camping Ships of the Line too. And this my dear friends is why it never happened historically. Apart from that any Frigate Captain risking his Nations assets in such a fashion would have been court-martialed and shot.

So my question to the Devs is: How much Harry Potter do we introduce into this game? (Pirates of a Burning Sea was full of it!!)

[SirSamuelHood]

7 hours ago, Sir William Hargood said:

I would like to raise a question to the Devs regarding the above and the apparent vulnerability of Ships of the Line to much smaller Frigates who are able to stern camp SOLs and reduce their crews by stern raking and ultimately boarding them. The question is how far do we go to stick to historical accuracy/relevance and how much Harry Potter do we bring into the game. I would suggest that for a Frigate to effect any realistic damage in a stern rake she would have to be well within musket range if not cannon point blank range. Considering the vast crew and height advantage of the SOL what are the crew doing if they cannot bring their cannon to bear? Are the marines and mariners not manning the taff-rail with muskets raining down all hell on the weather deck of the Frigate? Ask yourself the question if SOLs were so vulnerable to frigates why aren't the history books full of such feats of valour. Simple, they weren't! It didn't happen! So why does it happen here so frequently?

Regarding what is described above I ask the same question. A frigate next to a SOL? Why aren't the rails of the SOL being manned and musket fire clearing the decks of the Frigate? Effectively this should reduce the ability of the Frigate to maneuver, man the sails and to crew the weather deck. This should apply to the impetuous frigate stern camping Ships of the Line too. And this my dear friends is why it never happened historically. Apart from that any Frigate Captain risking his Nations assets in such a fashion would have been court-martialed and shot.

So my question to the Devs is: How much Harry Potter do we introduce into this game? (Pirates of a Burning Sea was full of it!!)

Ah, PotBS, where the skill buttons you mash mean far more than the rate of the ship you're in.