[PvP1] August 28th 1716, General Court Martial of Komandør fox2run

[Skully]

I should say, some Members of the Tribunal, not the President. I haven't truly presented it yet.

[Skully]

But a game mechanic where you can ruin another players game and force them out of their nation with enough player vote without any substantial proof or fair trial...will not go well.

I think what you are saying, we should not be ruled by passion, but rather by reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

The game can thrive on passion though, but yes it pushes folks out of their comfort zone.

I think we should stop going to tribunal for these things and rather focus on trying to come up with a mechanic that works, without being afraid of being pushed out of our comfort zones.

PS. Being pushed out of comfort zones, generates stress until ultimately the only comfort zone left is not playing this game.

And the worst outcome of anything is a player leaving the game.

[Skully]

But in fact the game is very egalitarian.  Each nation is essentially one big clan with zero membership barriers and inability to kick.

Lets for sake of argument say, it is a right for player to sail under the Nation of his choosing. Because that is what zero membership barriers imply.

Then I could argue that it actually is the Nationals who find another National's behavior offensive to be at fault.

If we consider zero membership barriers to a Nation a right for every player to have, then it should actually be the Nationals that find offense be the ones to man up and leave for the Free Empire.

Likewise we would have found a cure of the (now non-existent) Black Plague. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14574-curing-the-black-plague-bug/

Everybody should be able to switch (keeping in-game cost out of the picture for the moment).

But similarly we may introduce problems as you could no longer relocate a Capital after being conquered. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15638-development-plans-for-conquest-mechanics-rvr/?p=303850

Or do we only consider it a birth right, which may or may not be tracked by the game. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15638-development-plans-for-conquest-mechanics-rvr/?p=304172

[Skully]

An interesting read: https://onlinelaw.wustl.edu/blog/common-law-vs-civil-law/

Keep in mind that a Judge Advocate is considered a Lawyer, not a Judge.

(It actually favors France and Spain over US and England. )

Edited September 2, 2016 by Skully

[Twig]

Skully are you now holding a monolog?

[Skully]

Yes and no. I'm in session with members of the Tribunal and keeping you all up to date as far as I can and am allowed to.

[Skully]

Here is part of the problem: (I don't want to dive too deep yet, because there is more deep down.)

While the address here (via the means of trier of facts) (or any other open letter) might serve as input to a Court of Common Law, it is considered an insult or rather an anathema in Roman Law, if you will.

Keep in mind I've already said the ultimate judgement or execution lies with the Tribunal.

Here I remind every Member of the Council that they are trier of fact, not Judge. Nor am I as Judge Advocate the Judge nor Executioner.

I merely guide the proceedings to present them to the President of the Council, the Tribunal, for ultimate Judgement and Execution.

Thus we all respect the authority of the Tribunal, but to truly respect it in the sense of Roman Law, we can never ask for any form of punishment.

I don't think we are here to give insult or offense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_gap

It is cultural differences. And I think we have all been raised to believe our culture is the best.

This belief will stick until you are exposed to a different culture.

But how do we learn? Usually by trial and error.

So we give offense and are offended as we try to learn another culture. And then we have two ways to deal with it, accept the potential offense or run amok.

It is for non-Dutch mods impossible to judge whether I have offended Kloothommel with this honorific insult.

When you add in a mod, you now have 3 parties who need to agree whether and how something is offending. The chances of agreement are 12.5%, pretty low right?

So I think it is good for mods to highlight the potential offense, so we can learn and proceed.

So I'm working to reform my/our address in accordance to Roman Law. For this I've requested the help of 4 moderators, who are members of the Tribunal.

And as I have said, agreement between 3 parties has a 12.5% chance of random success, agreement between 5 parties has a 3.125% chance of random success.

(Given the number of Captains voted on this rather "it's a million-to-one chance, but it might just work!" http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Million-to-one_chance)

Thus it requires some work and time to make progress. Please bear with me.

[Cabral]

 What kind of trial is this? A danish captain is being judge by one pirate? Surely this court martial should be conducted by the Danish Council.

[Skully]

What kind of trial is this? A danish captain is being judge by one pirate? Surely this court martial should be conducted by the Danish Council.

That is a different part of the problem.

Who writes the Laws for a Nation?

Who is part of such Danish Council? Danish Parliament as defined by Voting Power? (currently based of the mechanic in Alliances which is a form of Democracy and Aristocracy)

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16218-voting-power-politics/

And does the Tribunal recognize such a group as legitimate? To actually deal out (a limited form of) punishment?

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16219-accusing-a-saboteur-marking-an-outlaw/

And again I'm not a Judge in these proceedings. I facilitate the proceedings, although I have entered my own judgement.

[Captain Underpants]

It is clear that a pirate (dishonourable by nature and unworthy to stand as judge) is acting as judge of a Danish player's actions within the Danish nation. Surely this is most inappropriate.

I perceive that no clan, player or group within a faction has the authority to issue orders to any other. This principle holds even with informal alliances made by such groups and views regarding how any other captain should play the game for which they have paid. To do so sets a dangerous precedent wherein players with no actual authority may dictate to others; where might allowing this lead?

I hold that no player should be punished or judged for not using external programmes such as TS. Once more, this sets a most dangerous precedent; namely that certain players would be excluded from game content despite having paid just as much for said game.

It is noted that the admiralty (devs) have issued not even a warning, let alone any punishment to the accused. As stated before, any captain is free to play as they wish save for cases of extreme anti-social behaviour which are judged by this admiralty. Without any such judgement from a genuine authority, how can those with none act as though they may dictate to others?

I, therefore, submit that this is nought but a kangaroo court, with no real authority and judged on the basis of idle gossip and rumour-mongering rather than any hard fact or probable and enforceable misdemeanors.

I, therefore, find fox2run not-guilty on all counts, and express my outrage with these proceedings and my concern at the direction such informal courts/lynch-mobs may take us all.

Yours respectfully,

Captain Underpants (on shore leave back in Blighty with his new-born daughter)

[Skully]

It is clear that a pirate (dishonourable by nature and unworthy to stand as judge) is acting as judge of a Danish player's actions within the Danish nation. Surely this is most inappropriate.

We have long gone past that stage. As I stipulated many times, I'm not a Judge and it was neither Danish Council nor Pirates who asked for a voting on the forum.

 

I perceive that no clan, player or group within a faction has the authority to issue orders to any other. This principle holds even with informal alliances made by such groups and views regarding how any other captain should play the game for which they have paid. To do so sets a dangerous precedent wherein players with no actual authority may dictate to others; where might allowing this lead?

I hold that no player should be punished or judged for not using external programmes such as TS. Once more, this sets a most dangerous precedent; namely that certain players would be excluded from game content despite having paid just as much for said game.

It is noted that the admiralty (devs) have issued not even a warning, let alone any punishment to the accused. As stated before, any captain is free to play as they wish save for cases of extreme anti-social behaviour which are judged by this admiralty. Without any such judgement from a genuine authority, how can those with none act as though they may dictate to others?

It is not about ordering folks around or demanding they must use TS for their gameplay.

It is about trolls who whisper their venom on the outside and convince normal players to ignore the (TS) voices of reason.

We will not let the trolls have their ways and let them bash at doors of players, moderators and devs alike.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16307-moderators-issue/?p=308607

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15485-patch-993-bucentaure-acceleration-rework-and-many-other-things/?p=288355

 

I, therefore, submit that this is nought but a kangaroo court, with no real authority and judged on the basis of idle gossip and rumour-mongering rather than any hard fact or probable and enforceable misdemeanors.

I, therefore, find fox2run not-guilty on all counts, and express my outrage with these proceedings and my concern at the direction such informal courts/lynch-mobs may take us all.

Yours respectfully,

Captain Underpants (on shore leave back in Blighty with his new-born daughter)

To pass judgement is the anathema in Roman Law and the sword can fall both ways.

Hence the 4 moderators have gone into recess and ponder my potential address to the Tribunal:

We, Captains of NA, <insert names> respectfully request a clarification on how the Tribunal deems something actionable by the community.

 

We use a roman law system and if this case is deemed actionable by the community we will update the rules because of this case.

But first I will wait and respect the judgement of the 4 moderators, before I can proceed, if at all.

[Captain Underpants]

Having viewed the original post, I find the specific allegations against the defendant to be spurious.

 

As follows:

 

First. With treachery, by admittedly attacking a French ally.

 

The French captain was only an ally of a select number of Danish players who had chosen to be so. Fox2run was bound by no alliance with the French nation; rather, according to the game mechanics he was, at that time, officially at war with the French. With the introduction of the new Alliance system and it's further development, a player's enemies and allies will become more clear, but the accusation relates to a time prior to these changes.

 

As a loyal British captain from a large, loyal clan, I find it frustrating when a player or clan acts outside of the wishes of the dominant part of my faction. Nevertheless, I defend their right to do so and reject once more the notion that any Danish player or clan had the right to order Fox2run to ally with any other faction with the, then lack of a diplomacy system in-game.

 

Therefore, you have accused Fox2run of behaving in a way that may frustrate and annoy certain other players (I would be one of them), but you have not accused him here of a criminal offence.

 

 

Second. With inattention to the progress of the enemy, with treachery, with incapacity as a Komandør respectively; by admittedly joining Port Battles with under-classed ships.

 

Once more, Fox2run is not being accused of anything here that could be regarded as criminal. At this present moment in time, there is no formal 'ownership' of a Port Battle (though this may change), and as we are assured that Fox2run was not using an alt to deliberately sabotage an attack, we must assume that he was fighting in the best way he believed and with the most appropriate ship according to his circumstance (which he has described). Again, we might consider his behaviour to be irritating and frustrating. However, we cannot find him guilty of any criminal offence.

 

 

Third. With neglect of duty, with disobedience respectively; by admittedly not following Orders in such Port Battles.

 

The prior principle applies here also. No player can claim ownership of a Port Battle in any real sense. The underlying assumption here is that certain Captains have the right to issue orders to other captains when in battle. However, this assumption has no foundation - on what basis are we deciding who has the authority to give orders? Fox2run has just as much right in fact to give orders and assume obedience as any other player. Until we have some formal mechanic/system to which all must abide, Fox2run cannot be convicted of disobeying orders which were given with no authority or mandate whatsoever.

 

 

Fourth. With general misconduct, with griefing respectively; by not showing the expected social behavior of a Danish officer.

 

In any court of law, a charge must be specific to a particular event or action. This charge is not specific in any way and, therefore, cannot be considered by a court.

 

 

In summation, I would submit that the behaviour of Fox2run has been irritating and frustrating to some. However, I cannot see any place where he has broken any in-game laws or disobeyed any orders which had a right to be given. Whilst I may not approve of all of his actions, I defend the right of Fox2run to play Naval Action as he sees fit, free from punishment or sanction.

 

I note and express my consternation with the fact that certain players have taken on the mantle of authority and the right to give orders to all within their faction, yet whilst having no grounds or basis to do so. There is a difference between voluntarily submitting oneself to another's orders (as I do frequently), and being forced to obey by someone who has no mandate whatsoever.

[Skully]

Yes, troll and exploit away without consequence. Then see what the general mood will become as they hide behind game mechanics. Sounds like the perfect plan to move to release. I wonder how long players, moderators and devs will be able to hold though... WDYT?

[Captain Underpants]

There is such a thing as true trolling and griefing. Where players abuse each other in-game or on the forums, where players use discriminatory or offensive language, where they scam each other or even try to force players out of the game, then I believe that action must be taken and that it is the responsibility of the devs and not the players to take such action. Fortunately we have systems whereby devs can be notified of such behaviour and they can deal accordingly.

 

I do not see evidence of Fox2run doing anything even approaching this, and whilst he may be irritating, it is better to simply ignore him if you don't like him, rather than try to convict him and punish him for acts that break no rules, except unwritten social conventions that only some acknowledge.

 

Stepping out of the 18th and nineteenth century for just a moment, and into our own 21st century, I believe Fox2run would be guilty of breaking social norms, but he would not be guilty of breaking any legal law for which he could be brought to trial.

 

As much as people lying, being rude, obnoxious, boastful, being un-pc etc etc may, in some cases drive me crazy, I do not wish to see those things becoming illegal.

 

Moving back into the 18th/19th century once more, if fox2run or other players do break all the unwritten social rules we have and, as such, annoy and frustrate other players, we will not need a formal sanction to punish them. They would, instead, reap what they sow and not find anyone willing to sail alongside them - that would be punishment enough.

[Skully]

They would, instead, reap what they sow and not find anyone willing to sail alongside them - that would be punishment enough.

If only that was possible, the Battle of Macao proves that this can not be.

You was firing to my ship in battle of Macao, and now you are telling about dev's rules? Ha ha ha. Your behavior and behavior of your clanmates was reported.

Was it luck or contempt for a Wormtongue that prevented SORRY from entering that battle? Who knows for sure.

The fact that SORRY did not enter battle ensured the Danish got out alive.

We are not talking about punishing an Outlaw, we are talking about exposing one.

At least we have some code of honor in Pirates, for a Pirate to behave as such we agree it's appropriate and correct.

Speaking as a proud and honourable Brit, this kind of behaviour normally gets me rather hot under the collar. However, when a pirate behaves like this it somehow seems quite appropriate and correct! Bravo to your audacity (you scurvy dog)!

Yet what if a National would exhibit similar behavior? Edited September 6, 2016 by Skully

[Captain Underpants]

If a national was to behave that way toward his own faction I would deem it unacceptable.

 

For a pirate to behave that way toward a player of another faction should be to be expected as acceptable role-playing and something the victim player should be aware of to protect themselves against.

[Grundgemunkey]

At first I enjoyed reading this thread as a bit of role playing between Skully and the other participants ... the more I have read the more concerned I get,,

are you been serious Skully  and are you expecting the mods / devs whoever to take some kind of action against fox2run if the votes come out as guilty ..

 

because if you are this thread is starting to creep into  the realms of cyber bullying and im surprised the mods have let it go this far ..... fox2run paid his hard earned cash for this game  and is entitled to play it as he sees fit ..whether you see his play style acceptable or not .. if he is indeed upsetting other players by his game style those players should report him  as per in game options ...

 

its not your place no matter what nation or role you play in the game to make such a thread on an open forum .. and bully another game player

[Skully]

To me it looks more like "crew shock" as the are stunned by the volleys that are coming at them.

The whole notion of a crowd/community turning ugly in a game that ultimately promotes conflict is a foreign notion against their principal values.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aequitas

While at the same time there could be a place in this game for such folk. But it would mean accepting that we go beyond any rules of propriety and have the proper means to deal with them in-game.

Although I don't press the Pray button each day, I still have faith in the devs to come to a good story.

PS. I just received word they are working hard to refine things. As admin says "we never promise anything and you should always expect the worst", I'll add my "Keep an open mind and exploit test everything."

The problem of bringing this to light is a special case in itself. I'm still not allowed to bring this to Tribunal as the ban hammer would be used on me. And this knowledge is actually used by the trolls to hold their ground.

I could not bring it to "General Discussions" straight away as that is the territory of the Moderators. So it would have been tossed into the bin.

Thus I agreed with a moderator to bring this to National News, where moderation isn't applied as rigorously.

I exploit test everything, including the boundaries of trolling to get us to a proper release.

Inquisitor Skully of the Alpha Legion. Serving the Undying Emperor until Death or Exterminatus, whichever comes first.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Skully

[Grundgemunkey]

The problem of bringing this to light is a special case in itself. I'm still not allowed to bring this to Tribunal as the ban hammer would be used on me. And this knowledge is actually used by the trolls to hold their ground.

I could not bring it to "General Discussions" straight away as that is the territory of the Moderators. So it would have been tossed into the bin.

Thus I agreed with a moderator to bring this to National News, where moderation isn't applied as rigorously.

I exploit test everything, including the boundaries of trolling to get us to a proper release.

Inquisitor Skully of the Alpha Legion. Serving the Undying Emperor until Death or Exterminatus, whichever comes first.

 

there is a reason you couldn't take it to tribunal.. because its trolling at best ..bullying at its worst ...role play it ...and hope fox2run gets the message ..

 

there is a difference between testing something and breaking it on purpose because you don't like how its going ..

 

every game I have played online has players that dont conform to how the rest play and it is annoying ..but every player who has PURCHASED a game has a right to play how they want ...

[Skully]

Join the fight on the other end then: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15751-forum-moderator-problems/?p=308865

[Skully]

but every player who has PURCHASED a game has a right to play how they want ...

I fully agree.

But if someone wants to play as an utter bastard trolling Wormtongue, then they should also be man enough to face the consequences.

Not hide behind mechanics, Tribunal or anything else.

Be a troll and face the music!

[fox2run]

The weird part is, that I never trolled anyone. Nor did I ever call other players bad, insulting stuff.

 

My mistake where that I didnt like the clan-politics of the biggest clan in a nation. I got kicked and since bashed a lot with personal accusations etc. I made my own clan and choosed not to play with TS. Playing without it makes a big difference and ones playstyle is different as well. 

 

Some players (not all) in the big clans got VERY personal as I didnt follow their lead (being a supreme commander of my own clan, I find it absurd that we should do what other clans tells us wihtout any form for agreement or negotiations).

 

An example is the Port Battle when I bought a flag. The battle was joined by a full team of 25 players. Some said "GJ", "nice" etc. But some said I was destroying their plans and accused me for buying the flag. Even if they joined the battle. And that was after the same players told me to go buy my own flag so I didnt mess up in their PBs. Those players will never stop harrassing me. Why? Maybe becourse Im not in their TS group. Maybe becourse they have low self-esteem in their everyday life. I have no idea. But I have a lot of friends within the nation and I really dont feel like Im playing alone in any respect.

 

:-)

[Hethwill]

There's no way around it.

 

Either let the man walk free or get the hanging party going. The execution square is empty by now with all the citizens leaving is dismay of a poor show.

[Skully]

There's no way around it.

 

Either let the man walk free or get the hanging party going. The execution square is empty by now with all the citizens leaving is dismay of a poor show.

The one thing you can expect Hethwill, is that there will be no hanging.

At most fox2run gets tossed into Piracy where he can play the free man he is.

Although there is still some Silver that smells of poop...

[Hethwill]

I think fox2run will be an excellent sea rover if he ever goes into the fold.