Players losing ships is bad, and here is why.

[Sylven1]

Except the fact that the ship would basically be unable to move or fire its guns with only 40 people.

Having the most barebones implementation of an XP system doesn't change the fact that in this game your ship is your avatar. In every bit of the game where there is real gameplay you act through your ship.

Sitting in a port and crafting doesn't count, since crafting isn't actual gameplay. Gameplay requires a challenge and a way to fail, crafting has neither, you just click buttons. The only part of crafting that actually requires you to do anything that isn't guaranteed to work is moving materials between ports which, surprise, is done through your ship.

So since there is no threat of failure to you then it isn't game play, but yet you advocate not being punished for falure in PvP by the fact you can lose your ship.

Also tell the people in this thread that have mentioned they play this game to craft it isn't gameplay, as there have been many in here that have said they play this game to craft.

[Aetrion]

 

Hard to argue that the ship isn't the focal point of the game.

 

Remove the ship from the game and you are basically stuck staring at the placeholder UI in the port.

 

Granted, both the crafting and the rank system is nothing but a basic framework right now so it might (most likely will) be improved upon and thus might open up other avenues of gameplay (more intricate and complex crafting system for instance) which then allows you to play the game while spending less time in your actual ship.

 

Then again, that would make it to be almost like EVE where you have scientist/industry/trading characters on separate accounts doing their thing according to trained skills while you have a separate account which does all the flying around.

 

Eve's way of making people buy multi-accounts and encouraging whales to make huge sums of ingame money through Plex is honestly one of the big reasons why I think Eve is usually overstating the numbers of actual players it has quite a bit. It just happens to be a game that caters to people with time and money to burn. When I was playing nearly everyone in my alliance had two accounts, some people had ten or more. Being a one-account player was the exception.

 

As far as adding a more interesting crafting system, I'm all for it, but I don't see how it's supposed to work. There is one giant fundamental truth to keep in mind here:

 

People don't play the game because they want to replace their gear.

People replace their gear because they want to play the game.

 

No matter how you slice it, crafting is the dependent system, so it needs to serve the real reason why people play the game, not the other way around like it is right now.

 

 

So since there is no threat of failure to you then it isn't game play, but yet you advocate not being punished for falure in PvP by the fact you can lose your ship.

Also tell the people in this thread that have mentioned they play this game to craft it isn't gameplay, as there have been many in here that have said they play this game to craft.

 

There is a big difference between something being gameplay and something being the reason why people play the game.

 

You can play a game for the story for example, but the story isn't gameplay. You can play a game for the setting, but the setting isn't gameplay either. 

 

Gameplay is those parts of the game that pose a specific challenge that has to be met through some display of skill by the player.

 

The only hard gameplay in this game currently is the sailing and the fighting. Another dimension of soft gameplay is the social aspect, since being able to make friends is how you overcome some challenges in the game. 

 

 

The crafting as it stands has no actual gameplay attached to it, and it doesn't in most games. That's exactly why in the majority of games crafting is an auxiliary system. In most MMOs most of the time in crafting is just gathering the resources, because by hiding resource nodes around the world the devs can introduce a bit of an exploration challenge to finding them. The actual creation of items almost always just happens by clicking them into existence though because it's simply outside of the scope of most games to have any kind of meaningful simulation of forging a sword or working wood.

 

The few games where crafting really matters and is front and center are actual crafting games, like Minecraft or Space Engineers where the actual configuration of blocks you create is what gives your creations value and function, so that there is a challenge in creating useful structures, and a skill players can develop at designing them.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Francech]

 

 

As far as adding a more interesting crafting system, I'm all for it, but I don't see how it's supposed to work. There is one giant fundamental truth to keep in mind here:

 

People don't play the game because they want to replace their gear.

People replace their gear because they want to play the game.

 

No matter how you slice it, crafting is the dependent system, so it needs to serve the real reason why people play the game, not the other way around like it is right now.

 

 

 

That's the focal point you are not understanding. People will play the game to build up their capabilities of getting their slice of finite resources of the game. This generates conflict, diplomacy, competition and gives motivation to actually play the game long term. 

 

What you are advocating is counter strike format of gameplay. That's a bad idea, for a MMO. Crafting is the most vital part for such a game. If there is nothing to compete in the open world because the resources are infinite, the game will simply die out after 2 months because everyone has everything.

 

Also you admit yourself that you need to get some sort of consumption. But why then make something complicated like payment, repair and so on when it's much more simple to just replace a ship. It's way less artificial than what you are proposing.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Francech

[Balsafer]

Ships are vastly different from one another some have more armor some can turn better than others some are more faster each ship is different in how it handles which is further influenced by how it is crafted.

 

I'll just quote myself here....

[Aetrion]

 

What you are advocating is counter strike format of gameplay. That's a bad idea, for a MMO. Crafting is the most vital part for such a game. If there is nothing to compete in the open world because the resources are infinite, the game will simply die out after 2 months because everyone has everything.

 

So counter-strike has been popular for 17 consecutive years without having a crafting system, but if it had an open world it would die?  

 

Then what about games like Planetside 2 and the upcoming Eternal Crusade? Are they automatically doomed to failure because they are shooters with an open world but no crafting system?

 

I'm not really following the logic here.

 

Also, you don't compete for finite resources in this game, because the only reason you even need resources is because you are competing with people. If you simply stay in port and don't fight anyone you don't ever need a new ship.

 

Your argument is simply backwards.

 

I don't fight because I need resources, I need resources because I fight. 

 

The game ultimately hinges purely on whether or not the fighting draws people in, just like Counterstrike.

 

 

 

Also you admit yourself that you need to get some sort of consumption. But why then make something complicated like payment, repair and so on when it's much more simple to just replace a ship. It's way less artificial than what you are proposing.

 

I don't think you need any sort of consumption, I just recognize that having trade is an important facet of the game for some people and that there is a certain amount of consumption I'm willing to put up with to have them enjoy the game. I can buy into having to consume lumber to make repairs, or buccan to feed my sailors..

 

Ships are not something I'm willing to put up with as a consumable item though. If you play the game because you love ships and because you want to be a sea captain then having a very unique, customized and personal vessel is a HUGE part of what gives you enjoyment in the game. Making ships into disposable mass produced items you need to constantly replace makes ships generic and RUINS that.

 

You can't even give you ship a name in this game right now. It's totally silly to have a game that is stuffed front to back with legendary vessels, from the Pickle to the Santisima but that doesn't recognize how important it is to some players that they can have their own legendary ship as well.

 

The fundamental fantasy in paying an age of sail game is not to be Bozo the ship diposal technician who just wrecks another nameless, mass produced, generic ship every week.

 

 

I mean you literally have people in the thread complaining that they don't want to craft generic items, they only want to craft unique ships, but are captains allowed to actually have a unique ship that is fully their own? Customized, named, recognizable? Nope, you are stuck just using up one disposable ship after the next.

 

Why put something like the Victory in the game if the game then fails to realize that if ships were built by the dozens every single day and sunk just as quickly nobody would actually remember the Victory?

 

There is a gigantic mechanics disconnect in this game between what the game is thematically about, which is a glorified version of the age of sail stuffed full of legendary vessels, and what the game is mechanically about, which is a soulless moloch of throwing fistfulls of disposable mass manufactured units at each other.

 

 

This game treats one of a kind ships that are still remembered more than 200 years after their time like they are T34s.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Dutchpower]

Well he knows it all better. They should lock this topic.

People are getting confused when this topic is so hot. 

 

One guy one opinion no one agree's do this in private chat.

[Balsafer]

 

So counter-strike has been popular for 17 consecutive years without having a crafting system, but if it had an open world it would die?  

 

Then what about games like Planetside 2 and the upcoming Eternal Crusade? Are they automatically doomed to failure because they are shooters with an open world but no crafting system?

 

I'm not really following the logic here.

 

 

Also, you don't compete for finite resources in this game, because the only reason you even need resources is because you are competing with people. If you simply stay in port and don't fight anyone you don't ever need a new ship.

 

Your argument is simply backwards.

 

I don't fight because I need resources, I need resources because I fight. 

 

 

The game ultimately hinges purely on whether or not the fighting draws people in, just like Counterstrike.

 

 

Seriously do not even compare this to counter strike or any game like it for that matter totally different game different game design different gameplay all together.

[Balsafer]

I will say again the vast majority of the player base like it as is only a handful don't. 

 

Crafting ships is needed because for one they do not appear out of thin air, two gives players that like crafting something to do, 3 adds a challenge.

[charognard666]

 

So counter-strike has been popular for 17 consecutive years without having a crafting system, but if it had an open world it would die?  

 

Then what about games like Planetside 2 and the upcoming Eternal Crusade? Are they automatically doomed to failure because they are shooters with an open world but no crafting system?

 

I'm not really following the logic here.

 

 

Also, you don't compete for finite resources in this game, because the only reason you even need resources is because you are competing with people. If you simply stay in port and don't fight anyone you don't ever need a new ship.

 

Your argument is simply backwards.

 

I don't fight because I need resources, I need resources because I fight. 

 

 

The game ultimately hinges purely on whether or not the fighting draws people in, just like Counterstrike.

 

 

Absolutly not ! you fight in order to :

1 - making some Xp/ Gold/ Fun

2 - in order to make your enemy some several loss in term of ships/ gold/ morale

3 - Even crafter need a ship to collect ressources... If they aren't in a team ^^

 

Cause an MMO isn't like CS where you fight and fight again without thinking to another thing... If your clan/ nation haven't good crafters/ traders, or good resources supply you'll be in pain... and next battle will be less easy... It is the point of any RvR OW game ! The fight isn't all, but the long term strategy and supply line are !

 

And, the trade isn't finish yet, like the craft, it's an EA game. I ll not be surprise if dev make trade between seas usefull in future and craft more complex/ deeper. But you are right on one point, this game is about sailing your ship, but i don't think anyone here want just sail without any heavy goal like make your nation number one... 

 

All your game vision lead you to play some round based and quick action games, or some no loss mmorpg with arena pvp... I'm fear Na isn't for you mate....

[Aubrey]

Well he knows it all better. They should lock this topic.

People are getting confused when this topic is so hot. 

 

One guy one opinion no one agree's do this in private chat.

Exactly what I thought pages ago.

[Ruthless4u]

I will say again the vast majority of the player base like it as is only a handful don't. 

 .

And you know this how? You sound like the players in WOT who claims everyone hates artillery lol.

[Francech]

Well he knows it all better. They should lock this topic.

People are getting confused when this topic is so hot. 

 

One guy one opinion no one agree's do this in private chat.

 

Yes i think that's the smartest thing said till now. At some point you have to surrender to how narrow the view is of some people.

[Ruthless4u]

Yes i think that's the smartest thing said till now. At some point you have to surrender to how narrow the view is of some people.

It's one of those issues where a small percentage of each side will disagree and argue/debate it. The vast majority might favor one side or the other but does not care enough to actually get involved.

The worst part is both sides often claim the " vast majority " sides with them but it is rare to proved either way.

[Aubrey]

Yes i think that's the smartest thing said till now. At some point you have to surrender to how narrow the view is of some people.

Nice try...

[Ruthless4u]

Although it does claim it's an exciting age of sail combat game, hard to be when 2/3 of your game time is related to Econ aspects.

[Aubrey]

Although it does claim it's an exciting age of sail combat game, hard to be when 2/3 of your game time is related to Econ aspects.

Oh please... -.-

[Aetrion]

Claiming majority on a game forum is extremely silly, because for one, forums are always insanely skewed toward the hardcore crowd's viewpoint, since they frequent forums more than other players, and secondly, any particular game's forum is always highly skewed toward defending the status quo in a game, simply because the people in a game's forum are inevitably mostly people who like the game the way it is.

 

The only thing you can sensibly argue for is whether or not the game has a target audience, and if that target audience is maybe too narrowly defined through certain systems. 

 

 

Although it does claim it's an exciting age of sail combat game, hard to be when 2/3 of your game time is related to Econ aspects.

 

This is a perfect example. Ruthless is here to play an age of sail combat game, he is a perfectly valid part of the target audience for this game, but is annoyed by having the combat aspect fettered by an economy system being slapped over the top of it.

 

At that point it simply isn't a question of who's in the majority, it's simply a question of "Do we want to cut people who want to play a combat game and not an economy game out of our target audience?". Since more players is generally better the sensible thing to shoot for is a compromise that retains both kinds of player.

 

 

 

Right now we have a few reasons why people play the game:

 

- Some people play it for the theme, because they like ships and history.

- Some people play it for the fights, because they like the combat system.

- Some people play it for the economy, because they like crafting stuff.

- Some people play it for the conquest, because they like large scale guild wars.

 

The people who play it for the theme are kind of getting crapped on right now, because the game has no real systems to allow yourself to be immersed in the period and the romanticism and of the age of sail. There are no real ways of defining yourself or your ship and living a life in that world. The iconic ships are all just veneer, the game doesn't seem to actually understand the fascination behind them.

 

The people who play for the fights are getting short changed because the game encourages you to avoid fights you can't easily win, and even in fair fights you have to expect to lose ships and then be stuck replacing them. Open world and economy are just a constant excuse for unbalanced and one sided battles, it's very hard to just have a fun fight, let alone spend your time with them.

 

The people who play for the economy are pretty well served with the game as it is. The crafting and trading are still a bit shallow and have no real gameplay attached to them. The economy depends way too much on people constantly having to replace stuff though, which means the interests of economy players heavily clash with those of people who are there for the fights and theme.

 

The people who play for the conquest are pretty well served by the game, because thinking about combat in the long term over weeks and months blends well with an economy where people can run out of stuff and with unbalanced individual fights in the context of a greater war. 

 

 

 

So basically, a significant chunk of the possible audience of the game is currently not well served by the systems. There should be an effort made to make those people feel more welcome as well, rather than an effort to try and define the games community purely as those people who the current systems serve well.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Ghroznak]

Although it does claim it's an exciting age of sail combat game, hard to be when 2/3 of your game time is related to Econ aspects.

 

It's only 2/3 of the game if you make it 2/3 of your game.

 

Personally I spend the majority of my playtime either sailing in OW or in battles. I spend a little bit of time now and then to work on my crafting, which is basically buying parts I didn't get from capturing traders and/or breaking down ships.

[Aubrey]

*readsAetrionspost*

Hey look, more unsupported claims and assumptions to support his personal agenda.

Finally something new...

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aubrey

[Ghroznak]

Claiming majority on a game forum is extremely silly

 

I have to agree with that.

 

The amount of threads and replies as well as users in a game forum does not represent more than a very small part of the entire playerbase. Even more so for this game (and others) that are on Steam where those who engage in the forum discussions are split between the main forum (here) and the Steam discussions which, personally, I find to be of worse / lower quality than the discussions on the main forums... but that's just my opinion.

 

Typically on forums you find the players who are most passionate about the game, and those who are upset because recent patches changed something that affected them, so they grab pitchforks and torches and race to forums to argue their case

[Ruthless4u]

It's only 2/3 of the game if you make it 2/3 of your game.

Personally I spend the majority of my playtime either sailing in OW or in battles. I spend a little bit of time now and then to work on my crafting, which is basically buying parts I didn't get from capturing traders and/or breaking down ships.

I will admit that I have not yet obtained the higher ranks, but it seems to me the more expensive the ships you use the more cost ergo the more time involved in Econ activities vs pvp.

But I know I represent the 90 percent of the 10 percent that frequents the forums lol.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ruthless4u

[Aubrey]

I will admit that I have not yet obtained the higher ranks, but it seems to me the more expensive the ships you use the more cost ergo the more time involved in Econ activities vs pvp.

No, not really.

By the time you reach a rank to command a bigger ship, you easily made the necessary gold to buy one.

If not, one may try to stick to learning the ropes until he is fit for command, before he criticizes the game itself...

[Ruthless4u]

No, not really.

By the time you reach a rank to command a bigger ship, you easily made the necessary gold to buy one.

If not, one may try to stick to learning the ropes until he is fit for command, before he criticizes the game itself...

Lack of rank in my case is due to time constraints than lack of ability. I'm lucky to get 2 missions a day and that's if I'm not sailing around like an idiot trying to find the fabled port Flatts.

Really wish I didn't do that for almost a week lol.

[Aubrey]

Lack of rank in my case is due to time constraints than lack of ability. I'm lucky to get 2 missions a day and that's if I'm not sailing around like an idiot trying to find the fabled port Flatts.

Really wish I didn't do that for almost a week lol.

I wasn't referring to you directly btw, it was more a general note.

[beagleplease]

The ships aren't so different from each other that you'd really be able to define yourself in any meaningful way that way, and there is certainly nothing that lets you set yourself apart from a more crafting oriented character.

 

Even in Eve which people constantly bring up as the reason why the game should be economy based every ship and ship system is governed by skills you have to learn, which is a part of that game I like, because it means you can define your specialty in ways that set you apart from other players. Being able to craft some kind of identity for yourself in the game is important I think, and this game definitely needs it, given how so much of it is totally generic, like how you can't customize the look of your ship at all and so on. (I think some ships even have their historical name permanently on the hull, even though in the game it should just be a ship of the same class)

 

Imo the skill system in eve is the worst part of that game.  You have to spend months skilling into a specialization before you can ever fly it effectively.  Meaning that you never actually get to learn how to play the role you are specializing foruntil you have the skills.  Not to mention how long it takes for a newbie character to learn the "core" skills needed to even fly a basic none specialized role effectively.

The thing that makes eve great is the player driven nature of the game.  Just look at the battle of B-R58B, or the battle of 6VDT (i was at that one), these are the reasons that a player driven economy/RvR are a good thing.

Edited February 12, 2016 by beagleplease