Players losing ships is bad, and here is why.

[Balsafer]

Crafting xp is needed because it should not be easy to jump in a 1st rate the first month of playing the game that is why crafting xp is there same reason we have xp and ranks.  

 

You can sail whatever ship you wan't in the game nothing is stopping you. You wan't to sail a constiution find a player that makes it and buy it from him lose it buy it again from him you make enough money doing missions pve fighting and pvp fighting you can replace it so in a sense you never lose the ship you wan't to sail.

[Aetrion]

Crafting xp is needed because it should not be easy to jump in a 1st rate the first month of playing the game that is why crafting xp is there same reason we have xp and ranks.

 

Except the ranks only allow you to use bigger ships, they don't at all allow you to specialize in any other ship. The bigger ships also get slammed with all kinds of additional downsides besides needing an extremely high rank, like being very expensive and significantly more likely to get sunk due to their low speed.

[Justme]

Apparently I do, since people like you think you can only pvp in gold ships and you no longer have a reason to complain about it.

Where did I say I needed them or even wanted them, please quote me.

I'm not the one trying to convince others the need for a cumbersome, dull and repetitive system.

You don't even use it for your own ships it's so bad apparently. But somehow it's good enough to force on everyone else.

[Ruthless4u]

Would love to see an admin or mod weigh in here lol.

[Balsafer]

Except the ranks only allow you to use bigger ships, they don't at all allow you to specialize in any other ship. The bigger ships also get slammed with all kinds of additional downsides besides needing an extremely high rank, like being very expensive and significantly more likely to get sunk due to their low speed.

 

What is this specialization are you talking about? Wan't to specialize in a certain ship sail it till you get real good at sailing it. 

[maturin]

 

Are you saying crafting doesn't actually take any skill? Well gee, maybe you're starting to understand why it annoys people that it bottlenecks combat.

 

Also, just because something has a skill element doesn't mean it can't also have a progression element. A combination of the two seems to be what most successful games use. Even Eve Online has plenty of skills that just give something like 25% more turn speed to a ship.

Have you actually played this game? Or did you just fail at two Missions and come here too write treatises?

 

Crafting doesn't bottleneck anything. The game is flooded with ships of every description, for sale in AI shops and sailing around waiting for you to capture them and sail them for free.

 

And the combat is skill-based. 'Learning to fight Constitutions' is honestly one of the worst ideas I've ever heard in over a year on these forums. Especially backed up with a comparison to a game where combat consists of spreadsheets.

[VictusB]

With respect to the EVE comparisons, it IS a fair one as the structures are similar just with Naval Action being in the rough building phases and not all parts of the economy implemented yet.  As for the 'EVE works because it has thousands of players, thus it can't work here' argument, I started in Feb 2004 and it was NOT a polished well oiled machine in any way.  Yet that internet spaceship, excel 2.0 simulator, has GAINED population over the past decade...no other MMO has done that BECAUSE *they* are themeparks that 'provide a progression experience' and your done until the next expansion.  EVE provides strategy and teamwork and conquest and loss.  If you can't handle loss you probably don't belong in a MMO environment.

 

What is great about Naval Actions potential is it can also provide a complex system where the success of a large fleet/faction is directly linked not only with the skill of its captains and fleet callers, but its logistics and proper management of resources and planning largescale conquests based on resources while protecting their own supply lines.  Right now its a rough form, but combat and general gameplay of NA is far superior to EVE online and I know I'm not alone in that opinion. 

 

Arguing for a 'theme park' experience really irks me and probably irks alot of former PoTBS players as well...that game would provide a great case study as to what happens when you replace player control and consequences that yield memories and trials and triumph with a 'populist' linear ride from small ships to big ships to buy more stuff and wait for next expansion.

[maturin]

With respect to the EVE comparisons, it IS a fair one as the structures are similar just with Naval Action being in the rough building phases and not all parts of the economy implemented yet.  As for the 'EVE works because it has thousands of players, thus it can't work here' argument, I started in Feb 2004 and it was NOT a polished well oiled machine in any way.  Yet that internet spaceship, excel 2.0 simulator, has GAINED population over the past decade...no other MMO has done that BECAUSE *they* are themeparks that 'provide a progression experience' and your done until the next expansion.  EVE provides strategy and teamwork and conquest and loss.  If you can't handle loss you probably don't belong in a MMO environment.

 

What is great about Naval Actions potential is it can also provide a complex system where the success of a large fleet/faction is directly linked not only with the skill of its captains and fleet callers, but its logistics and proper management of resources and planning largescale conquests based on resources while protecting their own supply lines.  Right now its a rough form, but combat and general gameplay of NA is far superior to EVE online and I know I'm not alone in that opinion. 

 

Arguing for a 'theme park' experience really irks me and probably irks alot of former PoTBS players as well...that game would provide a great case study as to what happens when you replace player control and consequences that yield memories and trials and triumph with a 'populist' linear ride from small ships to big ships to buy more stuff and wait for next expansion.

Comparisons to Eve combat, however, are nonsense. It's not relevant, any more than references to Backgammon.

[VictusB]

Comparisons to Eve combat, however, are nonsense. It's not relevant, any more than references to Backgammon.

Hence the word 'opinion' in that sentence.  Its not a technical comparison, it is a preference comparison and I stand by it and that I am not the only one who thinks the combat system in NA is more engaging and fun than Eve online.

[Dedlox]

Where did I say I needed them or even wanted them, please quote me.

I'm not the one trying to convince others the need for a cumbersome, dull and repetitive system.

You don't even use it for your own ships it's so bad apparently. But somehow it's good enough to force on everyone else.

I don't have to convince anyone, it's all ready in the game, you're the one complaining, and you're right, I craft ships for myself and others. I use it a lot but I still kill people in captured ships as much as I do in crafted ones so it's not a crutch for me. I was trying to give you an option to avoid this boring crafting and trading you complain so much about but I guess that isn't good enough either unless they completely change the game for you.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Dedlox

[Aetrion]

What is this specialization are you talking about? Wan't to specialize in a certain ship sail it till you get real good at sailing it. 

 

The ships aren't so different from each other that you'd really be able to define yourself in any meaningful way that way, and there is certainly nothing that lets you set yourself apart from a more crafting oriented character.

 

Even in Eve which people constantly bring up as the reason why the game should be economy based every ship and ship system is governed by skills you have to learn, which is a part of that game I like, because it means you can define your specialty in ways that set you apart from other players. Being able to craft some kind of identity for yourself in the game is important I think, and this game definitely needs it, given how so much of it is totally generic, like how you can't customize the look of your ship at all and so on. (I think some ships even have their historical name permanently on the hull, even though in the game it should just be a ship of the same class)

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Archetype]

Please, no. A huge part of the reason I purchased this game was it's hardcore nature (no mini map marker, localized banking, pvp almost anywhere, and ship loss). I am not even a fan of durability on ships - I would love if it sinks, you lose it, but I realize I am probably in the minority for that one. 

 

I sort of assumed this was why they made PVE servers? Let people that don't want to lose ships play against only NPCs, which pose a far lesser threat (non-existent thread if you only chose easier engagements). 

[Balsafer]

The ships aren't so different from each other that you'd really be able to define yourself in any meaningful way that way, and there is certainly nothing that lets you set yourself apart from a more crafting oriented character.

 

Even in Eve which people constantly bring up as the reason why the game should be economy based every ship and ship system is governed by skills you have to learn, which is a part of that game I like, because it means you can define your specialty in ways that set you apart from other players. Being able to craft some kind of identity for yourself in the game is important I think, and this game definitely needs it, given how so much of it is totally generic, like how you can't customize the look of your ship at all and so on. (I think some ships even have their historical name permanently on the hull, even though in the game it should just be a ship of the same class)

 

Ships are vastly different from one another some have more armor some can turn better than others some are more faster each ship is different in how it handles which is further influenced by how it is crafted.

[CountJeffrey]

Late to the party but here is my input.

 

Removing the permanent loss of ships would be a terrible turn to take away from this game. I think this game will flounder without permanent loss of ships and it adds to the game. The first and foremost reason to have it in the game is meaningful PvP where players and clans will have to assess the risk before going into battle instead of 'YOLO who cares what happens it doesn't matter'. The second reason is that it keeps the economy viable and keeps crafting profitable and can decrease inflation dramatically.

[hoarmurath]

Ships are vastly different from one another some have more armor some can turn better than others some are more faster each ship is different in how it handles which is further influenced by how it is crafted.

 

and even when using the same number of crafting notes, some have more upgrade slots than others.

[Francech]

The idea of this Topic is really horrible. First of all, the creator of the topic has clearly no idea of how an MMO economy works. If no money sink is made, what will happen is that prices will inflate into millions just for the most basic things. An experience every MMO has proven. Everquest did it, Ultima Online did it, Final Fantasy XI did it. The ignorance of past experiences is appalling.

 

Also there are not only strictly economic reasons why to keep the economy as it is with ships being lost, there are very valid reasons from a game play point of view.

 

Player interaction is driven by crafting. Player need to band together and pool labor hours to build ships giving reasons to cooperate. The lack of resources pushes players to seek trade to other ports. This creates a competition to control ports, which in turn motivates player to form companies to take over ports. This generates Diplomacy and War, giving player interaction a meaningfulness existence.

 

If no ship is ever lost, there is no need to do anything. No incentive. It would be a dull and boring game where your choices have no consequence and become irrelevant because no matter what you do nothing will change.

 

What the topic creator proposes is call of naval duty action. A game that starts a new every single round with some achievement progression.

 

It's a horrible idea! Also it's quite puzzling that the topic creator proposes such an idea. This option is already present in the form of small battles for players that only seek that form of game play, and is made possibly by giving 5 durability on ships or taking the basic cutter.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Francech

[Aetrion]

Oh hey, another person who thinks being against losing your entire ship means being against having any kind of consumption in the game.

 

I've played Ultima Online. I know how it works. It never once made me buy my whole character again, just a few weapons, some reagents and a bit of armor. 

 

It also had a skill system that provided substantial ways of defining your character and advancing in the game in ways that were yours to keep.

 

It also always included systems to repair items rather than only systems that destroy items.

 

It was in absolutely no way the same thing as this game where 100% of your capabilities are determined by the ship and the ship is disposable.

 

In fact, this game is probably worse than Eve in that regard, because it doesn't even have a a skill system at all that makes it so that being rich isn't the same as being able to do absolutely everything.

 

 

 

Ships are vastly different from one another some have more armor some can turn better than others some are more faster each ship is different in how it handles which is further influenced by how it is crafted.

 

The differences aren't anywhere near as pronounced as in Eve where ships can go all the way from tiny little frigates that do nothing but jam someones warp drive to titans that create jumpgates, yet you still need skills for them. 

 

Or are we allowed to just pick and choose which parts of Eve Online are the gold standard of MMO design and which parts can be completely disregarded?

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Dutchpower]

Oh hey, another person who thinks being against losing your entire ship means being against having any kind of consumption in the game.

 

I've played Ultima Online. I know how it works. It never once made me buy my whole character again, just a few weapons, some reagents and a bit of armor. 

 

It also had a skill system that provided substantial ways of defining your character and advancing in the game in ways that were yours to keep.

 

It also always included systems to repair items rather than only systems that destroy items.

 

It was in absolutely no way the same thing as this game where 100% of your capabilities are determined by the ship and the ship is disposable.

 

In fact, this game is probably worse than Eve in that regard, because it doesn't even have a a skill system at all that makes it so that being rich isn't the same as being able to do absolutely everything.

It is not eve or world of warcraft with a skill or perk system. So happy it isnt in here.

Most time's those kind of system only benefits for the players that played this game for a long time.

 

You see it in eve online new players dont stand a opportunity in even ships against a older player.

We already have upgrades for that. 

 

And naval action does have a kill system..

[Francech]

 

Oh hey, another person who thinks being against losing your entire ship means being against having any kind of consumption in the game.

 

I've played Ultima Online. I know how it works. It never once made me buy my whole character again, just a few weapons, some reagents and a bit of armor. 

 

It also had a skill system that provided substantial ways of defining your character and advancing in the game in ways that were yours to keep.

 

It also always included systems to repair items rather than only systems that destroy items.

 

It was in absolutely no way the same thing as this game where 100% of your capabilities are determined by the ship and the ship is disposable.

 

In fact, this game is probably worse than Eve in that regard, because it doesn't even have a a skill system at all that makes it so that being rich isn't the same as being able to do absolutely everything.

 

 

 

 

The differences aren't anywhere near as pronounced as in Eve where ships can go all the way from tiny little frigates that do nothing but jam someones warp drive to titans that create jumpgates, yet you still need skills for them. 

 

Or are we allowed to just pick and choose which parts of Eve Online are the gold standard of MMO design and which parts can be completely disregarded?

 

 

Can you explain what alternative there is to losing ship to actually make trade matter? If you never lose a ship, once everyone has the one that they like, where is the need to conquer ports? Where is the need to trade? Where is the need to be in a company? Why should you be involved in open world politics? Why being in open world at all?

 

Can't you see that having finite resources is the main motivator to compete for them?

 

With infinite resources (immortal ships), the whole point of the game is defeated. After 2-3 months everyone gets what they want. Then the only way to play will be by using the small battles feature because there is no point in being in open world.

 

I just cannot understand why it's so difficult to grasp such a simple idea. And the developers did understand this and went rightly in the best direction possible by introducing mechanics to make people move, to give them motivation to interact with each other on a long term basis.

[Sylven1]

Oh hey, another person who thinks being against losing your entire ship means being against having any kind of consumption in the game.

I've played Ultima Online. I know how it works. It never once made me buy my whole character again, just a few weapons, some reagents and a bit of armor.

I'm addressing this one part, and I think I found your problem, your ship isn't your character, its a tool of your character. And as all tools they can be damaged and destroyed.

Imnas casual as they come in games. Yet by just doing missions I've been able to buy a Fine Pickle, and a Fine Snow, I bought the fine Pickle after getting ganked on a private I captured during a mission. I have 75k gold from just doing missions and going after trade ships. Both my current ships are also down to 3 duibilty apeace from PvP, but I have plenty of gold to replace them.

Your ship isn't "your character" its a tool that is easily replace by just playing the game.

[Aetrion]

Can you explain what alternative there is to losing ship to actually make trade matter? If you never lose a ship, once everyone has the one that they like, where is the need to conquer ports? Where is the need to trade? Where is the need to be in a company? Why should you be involved in open world politics? Why being in open world at all?

 

Can't you see that having finite resources is the main motivator to compete for them?

 

With infinite resources (immortal ships), the whole point of the game is defeated. After 2-3 months everyone gets what they want. Then the only way to play will be by using the small battles feature because there is no point in being in open world.

 

I just cannot understand why it's so difficult to grasp such a simple idea. And the developers did understand this and went rightly in the best direction possible by introducing mechanics to make people move, to give them motivation to interact with each other on a long term basis.

 

I've already talked about a lot of alternatives, like shifting the main economy from building ships to repairing ships so that ships can have deeper and more lasting customization because you don't need to worry about finding the exact same configuration again due to being unable to overhaul a ship.

 

There are currently also no operating costs to ships at all other than ships getting sunk, which is to say, your crew works completely for free, doesn't need water, food, medicine, or anything else. Imagine all the possible crafting avenues we could add to the game if for example we added Buccaneering and Distilling to the game as means of creating rations of various quality for the crew of a ship.

 

Transatlantic trade is another huge factor that is currently unexplored in the game, even though it is thematically about colonial empires. Having that dimension of economic warfare would allow the game to not entirely depend on losses in ship to ship warfare to provide all the demand in the economy.

 

Building of defenses and so on for ports is another aspect of the game currently not fully developed that could provide all kinds of outlets for crafting.

 

Then there is the whole concept of repairs over time which is a whole lot fairer anyways, because it makes it so that everyone has to wait if their ship is too damaged, rather than just having people with huge stockpiles of stuff be able to laugh at losses while people with less time are crippled by them.

 

 

And giving people motivation to interact? The only way this game makes people interact is by making it too risky to do anything alone. That doesn't foster broad interaction though, it just fosters tight knit clans that sit on TS and don't talk to anyone else. Having more of an advancement system where you can define what your character does well gives you a lot more reasons to actually interact with other players, since you won't always be able to do everything yourself. 

 

 

Your ship isn't "your character" its a tool that is easily replace by just playing the game.

 

The ship is your avatar in the game, you cannot do anything without it, it represents 100% of the actual gameplay, so no, it isn't a mere tool. The mere fact that they had to implement a ship that you always get for free proves that.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Sylven1]

I've already talked about a lot of alternatives, like shifting the main economy from building ships to repairing ships so that ships can have deeper and more lasting customization because you don't need to worry about finding the exact same configuration again due to being unable to overhaul a ship.

There are currently also no operating costs to ships at all other than ships getting sunk, which is to say, your crew works completely for free, doesn't need water, food, medicine, or anything else. Imagine all the possible crafting avenues we could add to the game if for example we added Buccaneering and Distilling to the game as means of creating rations of various quality for the crew of a ship.

Transatlantic trade is another huge factor that is currently unexplored in the game, even though it is thematically about colonial empires. Having that dimension of economic warfare would allow the game to not entirely depend on losses in ship to ship warfare to provide all the demand in the economy.

Building of defenses and so on for ports is another aspect of the game currently not fully developed that could provide all kinds of outlets for crafting.

Then there is the whole concept of repairs over time which is a whole lot fairer anyways, because it makes it so that everyone has to wait if their ship is too damaged, rather than just having people with huge stockpiles of stuff be able to laugh at losses while people with less time are crippled by them.

And giving people motivation to interact? The only way this game makes people interact is by making it too risky to do anything alone. That doesn't foster broad interaction though, it just fosters tight knit clans that sit on TS and don't talk to anyone else. Having more of an advancement system where you can define what your character does well gives you a lot more reasons to actually interact with other players, since you won't always be able to do everything yourself.

The ship is your avatar in the game, you cannot do anything without it, it represents 100% of the actual gameplay, so no, it isn't a mere tool. The mere fact that they had to implement a ship that you always get for free proves that.

No. Your ship is not your character. If it was so your rank and XP would be tied to that ship.

And last I checked, you can craft all you want without ever sailing out of port. So to say everything is tied to your ship is wrong.

EDIT-if your ship was you, the at Rank one the only ship you would be able to sail is a cutter. But there is nothing stopping that rank 1 player if he can get his hands on one from sailing a 1st rate with 40 people if they wanted.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Sylven1

[Aetrion]

Except the fact that the ship would basically be unable to move or fire its guns with only 40 people. 

 

Having the most barebones implementation of an XP system doesn't change the fact that in this game your ship is your avatar. In every bit of the game where there is real gameplay you act through your ship.

 

Sitting in a port and crafting doesn't count, since crafting isn't actual gameplay. Gameplay requires a challenge and a way to fail, crafting has neither, you just click buttons. The only part of crafting that actually requires you to do anything that isn't guaranteed to work is moving materials between ports which, surprise, is done through your ship.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Aetrion

[Ghroznak]

Hard to argue that the ship isn't the focal point of the game.

 

Remove the ship from the game and you are basically stuck staring at the placeholder UI in the port.

 

Granted, both the crafting and the rank system is nothing but a basic framework right now so it might (most likely will) be improved upon and thus might open up other avenues of gameplay (more intricate and complex crafting system for instance) which then allows you to play the game while spending less time in your actual ship.

 

Then again, that would make it to be almost like EVE where you have scientist/industry/trading characters on separate accounts doing their thing according to trained skills while you have a separate account which does all the flying around.

[Sylven1]

Hard to argue that the ship isn't the focal point of the game.

Remove the ship from the game and you are basically stuck staring at the placeholder UI in the port.

Granted, both the crafting and the rank system is nothing but a basic framework right now so it might (most likely will) be improved upon and thus might open up other avenues of gameplay (more intricate and complex crafting system for instance) which then allows you to play the game while spending less time in your actual ship.

Then again, that would make it to be almost like EVE where you have scientist/industry/trading characters on separate accounts doing their thing according to trained skills while you have a separate account which does all the flying around.

I never said ships weren't the focal point of this game. I said it wasn't your character as if it was your rank and XP would be tied to that ship.