Eliminate small ship griefing

[Hethwill]

Correct.

Also in real life ships of the line of battle were not thrown carelessly and actually kept in station of the fleet for war ! nation wide. Not local missioning. They had 74s and frigates and unrated for that .

Plus, and taking by RN standards, captains were expected to actively seek and engage enemy ships, bigger and with fairly higher cannon count, a 32 was expected to active engage a 46/48. Do all captains follow that Rule of Engagement ? No, of course not.

The wheel turns and burns and never stops.

[Rikard Frederiksen]

32 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

In real life the crew if a 6th rate would throw the captain overboard if he ordered them to attack a 4th rate plus.

The marines on a 4th rate  would slaughter the 6th rates crew as soon as it was in rake range.

Ships should not be able to tag two classes above themselves. It did not happen for a reason. 

Limit tagging to 1 class above own level and unlimited below.

To turn that on its head, surely we should have an auto-surrender option for when crew losses hit a certain percentage, because crews aren't stupid and won't fight to the death.

Game mechanics have to be taken with a hefty pinch of salt at times and this is an area where that perspective is needed. If PvP in this game is meant to primarily be about skill, why deny others the chance to show their capability? Keeping your 6th Rate out of the line-of-sight of a larger ship's batteries is not an easy task. Judgement of distance, speed, turning speeds, reading opponents' intentions and timing are crucial, as staying on a tack just too long, or leaving a turn too late, misjudging distance or an angle, or the relative speeds of ships  can leave you being pummelled by a hefty broadside. It is tricky, and there are times when I find myself gritting my teeth and emitting an 'eeeeee!' sound as I desperately try to finish my turn before I am in the arc of the larger ship's guns!

Hiding larger ships behind a safety blanket of 'Ha-ha, you can't attack me!' nullifies PvP opportunities, removes an element of danger from the open seas and negates a daring playstyle. The 'little ship' captains should not have their fun removed because some people are scared of not being able to fight off smaller ships. My fun should not be considered less important because I don't choose to sail a large, ponderous ship. Even a 5th Rate in a Captain's fleet would do wonders to deal with 6th Rate ships. Otherwise, find tactics to deal with them.

6th-5th Rates really should be the bread and butter ships of the game, but I suppose the allure of a huge, hulking man-o'-war is far greater than the nippy, speedy and lightly armed frigates & sloops-of-war. As I said in my post above, redoing the mechanics for turning to include acceleration & deceleration and momentum would help in this area, not a blanket ban on smaller ships being able to engage larger ships.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Rikard Frederiksen

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Jean de la Rochelle said:

No, it wasn't you, it was redi who has been sidelining this thread.

It isn't really my intention to argue for griefing, but against any regulations that would separate the realm of the 7-6th from the 5th rates and up. Basically you're saying that your playtime is more worth than anybody's else and that gives me the itch.

I have been ganked so often, especially as a newbie, still I don't raise a campaign against it or any of the ship types involved.

 

 

Ganking doesn't waste a persons time though, usually it's pretty quick. I'd much rather be ganked by a bunch of ships capable of taking me out than being attacked then griefed by 2 or 3 6th rates. If you are ganked you either escape fast or are overwhelmed. You don't usually spend a whole hour and a half being pecked at from beyond optimal range. 

As to the historical argument, the game is based in history and the developers have at least made a casual attempt to stay at least abit historically accurate. 

I hate to crimp anyone else's game play but when a group is throwing a wrench into mine and making the game unenjoyable, something needs to be done. Maybe make smaller ships unable to tag more than 1 class above them, and conversely bigger ships unable to tag smaller ones. I cannot think of any reason why I would want to tag a snow anyhow. Or why anyone in a larger ship than the ones I prefer would want to either. 

Trade ships can be excepted from the rule or put into a class of their own. Shouldn't be rated anyhow.

[Hethwill]

The schooner/brig captains cannot learn how to handle a bigger ship being commanded by another player if they never try.

I do not support grief, but I support the opportunity of a death squad made of unrated preying on whatever they think they can take

[Hodo]

53 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

In real life the crew if a 6th rate would throw the captain overboard if he ordered them to attack a 4th rate plus.

The marines on a 4th rate  would slaughter the 6th rates crew as soon as it was in rake range.

Ships should not be able to tag two classes above themselves. It did not happen for a reason. 

Limit tagging to 1 class above own level and unlimited below. 

 

LOL, no.

Most pirates and privateers engaged ships larger than themselves on a regular basis.  Most merchant ships were easily a rating or two above the size of the attacking vessel.  

So in your system a Lynx would not be able to engage a LGV, 7th rate vs 5th rate.   A Rattlesnake cant engage a Indiaman, 6th vs 4th.  

Sorry that is flat out cowardliness.  

Any captain who wants to support such an idea, doesnt have a solid bone in his body. 

[Sang Noir]

1 hour ago, Flash Jack said:

The marines on a 4th rate  would slaughter the 6th rates crew as soon as it was in rake range.

Nevermind if I said anything against a good historicity discussion 🙄😉: will you please take a look at what the crew of the historical Prince de Neufchâtel did to the crew of the HMS Endymion.. 

35 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Ganking doesn't waste a persons time though, usually it's pretty quick.

Depends. I try to fight back. Though I admit, I resorted to surrendering as of lately if there's really no chance.  Still, sometimes it took me over an hour to prepare my voyage, my ship, etc. That's my playtime too. 

35 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Maybe make smaller ships unable to tag more than 1 class above them, and conversely bigger ships unable to tag smaller ones

If you want a rule, make it like this. 

I would find it sad though and rather have an open world with few regulations, seconding:

46 minutes ago, Rikard Frederiksen said:

Hiding larger ships behind a safety blanket of 'Ha-ha, you can't attack me!' nullifies PvP opportunities, removes an element of danger from the open seas and negates a daring playstyle.

Why not just give them the fight instead?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Jean de la Rochelle

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

LOL, no.

Most pirates and privateers engaged ships larger than themselves on a regular basis.  Most merchant ships were easily a rating or two above the size of the attacking vessel.  

So in your system a Lynx would not be able to engage a LGV, 7th rate vs 5th rate.   A Rattlesnake cant engage a Indiaman, 6th vs 4th.  

Sorry that is flat out cowardliness.  

Any captain who wants to support such an idea, doesnt have a solid bone in his body. 

Most pirates had 2 to 3 times the crew a merchant ship would carry. Most pirates also ran from warships as well. There were exceptions but it was few and far between.

[Malachy]

3 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

The schooner/brig captains cannot learn how to handle a bigger ship being commanded by another player if they never try.

I do not support grief, but I support the opportunity of a death squad made of unrated preying on whatever they think they can take

5 or more sure. These two and three packs are what are annoying because they take abit of damage then retreat and hold you in battle for the rest of the timer. Maybe make it so you have to have a combined greater Br to tag a larger opponent?

[Hethwill]

BR rules are in effect already.

By the way can you show me the 17 knots please ? Appreciated.

 

[Jack Jones]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

LOL, no.

Most pirates and privateers engaged ships larger than themselves on a regular basis.  Most merchant ships were easily a rating or two above the size of the attacking vessel.  

So in your system a Lynx would not be able to engage a LGV, 7th rate vs 5th rate.   A Rattlesnake cant engage a Indiaman, 6th vs 4th.  

Sorry that is flat out cowardliness.  

Any captain who wants to support such an idea, doesnt have a solid bone in his body. 

Yes that's right. It never happened.

Please show me examples of 28 gun pirates engaging with 5th and 4th rate ships of the line?

They did not because it was impossible.

I do It now with others but we should not be able to it ruins the awe of larger ships and is an exploit using bad mechanics.

The damage model although good is flawed because it is linear.

If a 6th rate was hit by 24 lb longs it would be destroyed. 

And yes a lynx should never be able to engage an LGV.

Liking it for gaming purposes dies not MAKE it correct in reality.

Captains having no backbone. Your playing a computor game the worst thing your backbone will suffer is bum ache.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Flash Jack

[PG Monkey]

Naval Action is not a sim 

[Malachy]

18 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

BR rules are in effect already.

By the way can you show me the 17 knots please ? Appreciated.

 

The Br rules need adjusted then. Because as it stands it's not god enough. 

Its simple, stack mods on a fast wood. It will show 15.5 in game but if you do the math it's about 17. The 17 doesn't affect the ship at its best point, you are speed capped there. Where it comes into play is on points not your best point. So where the ship doesn't do it's top speed, it will be faster at those points because your carrying an extra couple knots worth of mods. That kind of eliminates the ship in question having a bad point. you can even get an Endymion to do pretty well upwind if you stack it as fast as you can with speed mods.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Do a BR suggestion then, not by rate but by BR.

So it is 15.5, not 17. Thank you. I was getting oddly confused.

[Jack Jones]

24 minutes ago, PG Monkey said:

Naval Action is not a sim 

No one ever said it was.

The description is;

"Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas."

 

 

[Malachy]

11 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Do a BR suggestion then, not by rate but by BR.

So it is 15.5, not 17. Thank you. I was getting oddly confused.

You are speed capped at 15.5 at your best point. However by modding to 17 in ships with higher base speeds, you can eliminate or mitigate your worst points making a ship that does not handle as intended. It's an exploit that's been around since they started capping speeds. 

[Malachy]

5 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

No one ever said it was.

The description is;

"Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas."

 

 

And the entire purpose of this thread is to strive to find some of that realism. 

[Hethwill]

I know exactly what you mean and isn't related; my question was direct and required a direct answer, which you gave . Thank you for that.

[Hodo]

39 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

Yes that's right. It never happened.

Please show me examples of 28 gun pirates engaging with 5th and 4th rate ships of the line?

They did not because it was impossible.

I do It now with others but we should not be able to it ruins the awe of larger ships and is an exploit using bad mechanics.

The damage model although good is flawed because it is linear.

If a 6th rate was hit by 24 lb longs it would be destroyed. 

And yes a lynx should never be able to engage an LGV.

Liking it for gaming purposes dies not MAKE it correct in reality.

Captains having no backbone. Your playing a computor game the worst thing your backbone will suffer is bum ache.

 

HMS Speedy vs El Gamo

HMS Speedy 14x 4lb guns 90 men

vs

El Gamo - 5th rate Xebec 32 gun ship with 22x 12lb guns, 2 24lb carronades, and 8 8lb guns.  319men.

 

Results... HMS Speedy victorious, 3 men killed, 9 wounded.  El Gamo, 14 killed, 41 wounded, 261 captured.

 

La Concorde- 5th rate converted frigate of 40 guns captured by the Revenge and Ravager, both sloops, of 8 guns and 50 and 70 men.   The La Concorde was renamed the Queen Anne's Revenge by its captor, Edward Teach aka Blackbeard.

 

Should I keep going?

Mercury vs the Ottoman Navy.....  while not a victory in a sense that it sunk anything.  

 

The USS Lynx, captured SEVERAL merchant ships varying in size from brigs to larger 5th and 4th rate ships.

 

Oh and if a ship like the USS Constitution in game hits a 6th rate built for speed with its 24lb longs... it does destroy it.

9 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

Spain vs US - 1:0

 

Oh SNAP!

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Hodo

[Malachy]

15 minutes ago, Hodo said:

 

HMS Speedy vs El Gamo

HMS Speedy 14x 4lb guns 90 men

vs

El Gamo - 5th rate Xebec 32 gun ship with 22x 12lb guns, 2 24lb carronades, and 8 8lb guns.  319men.

 

Results... HMS Speedy victorious, 3 men killed, 9 wounded.  El Gamo, 14 killed, 41 wounded, 261 captured.

 

La Concorde- 5th rate converted frigate of 40 guns captured by the Revenge and Ravager, both sloops, of 8 guns and 50 and 70 men.   The La Concorde was renamed the Queen Anne's Revenge by its captor, Edward Teach aka Blackbeard.

 

Should I keep going?

Mercury vs the Ottoman Navy.....  while not a victory in a sense that it sunk anything.  

 

The USS Lynx, captured SEVERAL merchant ships varying in size from brigs to larger 5th and 4th rate ships.

 

Oh and if a ship like the USS Constitution in game hits a 6th rate built for speed with its 24lb longs... it does destroy it.

 

Oh SNAP!

 

 

Merchant ships were unrated and didn't typically carry fighting men.

ive hit a fir snow at 200 yards with every gun on my Connie and only dropped it by about 50 percent structure. It should be instant sink if four or 5 guns hit imho.

none of those were rated ships. It's within the realm of possibility to engage a 5th with a 6th and maybe win. Not a 4th with a 6th.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

In reality crews in such a ship handled by traders would surrender even before you'd fire a shot. But let's suppose for an instant it was a pirate armed trader, after your broadside the crew morale would have evaporated. They would abandon ship and escape in the rowboats to the closest shoreline.

Do we have crew morale during the non-boarding mechanics ?! 

[Hodo]

13 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Merchant ships were unrated and didn't typically carry fighting men.

ive hit a fir snow at 200 yards with every gun on my Connie and only dropped it by about 50 percent structure. It should be instant sink if four or 5 guns hit imho.

none of those were rated ships. It's within the realm of possibility to engage a 5th with a 6th and maybe win. Not a 4th with a 6th.

The El Gamo was a 5th rate, and a combat ship.  The HMS Speedy was unrated, but of the Brig class so for our purposes a 6th rate.

The La Concorde was a converted 5th rate frigate, turned into a merchant ship.   It was originally built as a 40 gun 5th rate frigate.  

It doesnt matter if they had fighting men or not, the USS Lynx wasnt a military vessel, thus didnt have marines either.   Teach's Ravager didn't have marines either... yet the La Concorde did.

I dont even think the HMS Speedy had marines on board it.  It was to small to rate their deployment.

But the El Gamo did have marines... I believe 20-40 on a ship that size was standard. 

at 50% structure he would start taking on water.  So he was sinking, but his pumps were overcoming the amount of water coming in.   And ships back then didnt instantly sink.   It could take hours for a ship to sink if left unattended.  

And had you got a second shot off on that Snow you would have sunk it.    Had you hit its mast twice with that firepower it would have been a canoe.   

 

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

The El Gamo was a 5th rate, and a combat ship.  The HMS Speedy was unrated, but of the Brig class so for our purposes a 6th rate.

The La Concorde was a converted 5th rate frigate, turned into a merchant ship.   It was originally built as a 40 gun 5th rate frigate.  

It doesnt matter if they had fighting men or not, the USS Lynx wasnt a military vessel, thus didnt have marines either.   Teach's Ravager didn't have marines either... yet the La Concorde did.

I dont even think the HMS Speedy had marines on board it.  It was to small to rate their deployment.

But the El Gamo did have marines... I believe 20-40 on a ship that size was standard. 

at 50% structure he would start taking on water.  So he was sinking, but his pumps were overcoming the amount of water coming in.   And ships back then didnt instantly sink.   It could take hours for a ship to sink if left unattended.  

And had you got a second shot off on that Snow you would have sunk it.    Had you hit its mast twice with that firepower it would have been a canoe.   

 

But that's the point tho, I wasn't able to get a second shot off because in the 50 seconds it takes for my guns to load he was out of range up wind. Then he spent the next hour tagging me with ball at max range.

Like I said all those ships were 5th rates and not relevant to the discussion at hand. And a merchant ship is still a merchant ship no matter what it started life as. Once refitted as a merchant or troop hauler, it's combat effectiveness is severely diminished 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Malachy

[Hodo]

2 hours ago, Malachy said:

But that's the point tho, I wasn't able to get a second shot off because in the 50 seconds it takes for my guns to load he was out of range up wind. Then he spent the next hour tagging me with ball at max range.

Like I said all those ships were 5th rates and not relevant to the discussion at hand. And a merchant ship is still a merchant ship no matter what it started life as. Once refitted as a merchant or troop hauler, it's combat effectiveness is severely diminished 

Unlike here, they still have to board those ships so.... it does matter, 319 men vs 70, is a HUGE difference.

As for your issue...well it sounds like you should work on getting reload buffs, because I think I can reload my Indefatigable broadside in about 45sec.  I think I have 15% reduction currently in reloading on that ship.   He who can fire first, and most generally wins.  Or as I used to say as a SAW gunner in the Army, "accuracy through superior volume of fire!"

Your failures as a captain is not a reason to nerf or effectively remove a whole rating of ships.   I am sorry but you should spend some time in a 6th rate and see how hard it actually is to sail and fight a bigger ship.   It isnt a cake walk like you make it out to be, one screw up and that could be your masts, or your hull or both if a Santi fires at you.  

You make it seem like Snows, Brigs, Niagaras, and Heavy Rattlesnakes are impossible to beat.   While fact is, they are far from it  

If you know their weakness you can exploit it, as people have pointed out time and time again.  

 

I know my weaknesses as a captain, I know what I am good at, and I sail to those strengths.   Ask anyone who has fought me.  I am not the greatest, but I can hold my own in a 5th rate.   I have defeated ships bigger than me, and ships smaller than me.  I have escaped situations most people would have been sunk or captured in.   You need to build a ship to your strengths.

If I had a Constitution built for me it would be a teak-mahag, or teak-fir ship.   I would want it to go as close to 13knts as possible, I wouldnt use 24lb longs, but 24lb mediums for the rate of fire and damage.   I would use carronades on the weather deck for added punch and close in deck sweeps.    I would use long guns on the bow, and mediums in the stern.  

The ship would have optimized ballast, Melee training, a Katherine figure head, and maybe the navy hull refit.    This would be the minimum I would consider before taking it out to fight. 

With those things alone the ship would be able to out turn a Belle Poole made of oak with no mods.  

 

 

[Malachy]

37 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Unlike here, they still have to board those ships so.... it does matter, 319 men vs 70, is a HUGE difference.

As for your issue...well it sounds like you should work on getting reload buffs, because I think I can reload my Indefatigable broadside in about 45sec.  I think I have 15% reduction currently in reloading on that ship.   He who can fire first, and most generally wins.  Or as I used to say as a SAW gunner in the Army, "accuracy through superior volume of fire!"

Your failures as a captain is not a reason to nerf or effectively remove a whole rating of ships.   I am sorry but you should spend some time in a 6th rate and see how hard it actually is to sail and fight a bigger ship.   It isnt a cake walk like you make it out to be, one screw up and that could be your masts, or your hull or both if a Santi fires at you.  

You make it seem like Snows, Brigs, Niagaras, and Heavy Rattlesnakes are impossible to beat.   While fact is, they are far from it  

If you know their weakness you can exploit it, as people have pointed out time and time again.  

 

I know my weaknesses as a captain, I know what I am good at, and I sail to those strengths.   Ask anyone who has fought me.  I am not the greatest, but I can hold my own in a 5th rate.   I have defeated ships bigger than me, and ships smaller than me.  I have escaped situations most people would have been sunk or captured in.   You need to build a ship to your strengths.

If I had a Constitution built for me it would be a teak-mahag, or teak-fir ship.   I would want it to go as close to 13knts as possible, I wouldnt use 24lb longs, but 24lb mediums for the rate of fire and damage.   I would use carronades on the weather deck for added punch and close in deck sweeps.    I would use long guns on the bow, and mediums in the stern.  

The ship would have optimized ballast, Melee training, a Katherine figure head, and maybe the navy hull refit.    This would be the minimum I would consider before taking it out to fight. 

With those things alone the ship would be able to out turn a Belle Poole made of oak with no mods.  

 

 

I understand where you are coming from but the main difference is this: no other ship class can grief with impunity. The only class that can is the 6th rate. It's got enough protection to take pretty much whatever is dished out in the first pass, and then sail to a point where nothing else can catch it and plink away with popguns for the rest of the match avoiding hits due to its small size or damage fall off. 

You keep forgetting, I don't consider them a threat to a Connie unless there are half a dozen of them. I'm one of the best Connie captains on the eu server, not some damned noob who has never used one. 

The build you describe would leave serious holes in your combat ability. First, 13.5 knots is too slow if you are solo. You would be meat for any gank group who came by. Also, you would get even less time on target when fighting 6th rates because you are sacrificing a knot and a half before the battle even starts. The slower you are, the slower you turn. It's not a turning stat issue but an acceleration issue. The faster you go into a turn, the faster you complete it. 

Next, you can't just outfit a Connie for one target, you need to think about what else you will face. I regularly engage and destroy wasa, for that you need to have dps. That means longs and carronades. That is the best dps and penetration convo you can put on a Connie. I sometimes use all longs if I'm supporting light frigates tho. 

For chase armament you want 18 lb longs in the rear. A single good hit from one of these will break a topsail off a wasa. For fronts, these guns are usuallly only used for tagging and taking down sail. 4 lb longs give the best reload. So in a dps to sail perspective that's what you want. 

Now to build: fir/teak is the best build for a fast ship. You get optimum speed but no crew penalties. On a Connie, that's around 6000 armor and mid sixties thickness. 

Mods, I use a navy hull, bovenwinds, and an elite British refit. For generals: optimized rudder, optimized ballast, art of ship handling, treatise on square sails trim and marines or studding sails depending on my mission. That build gives me optimum speed (around 15 knots with repairs loaded) optimum maneuverability, and good protection. 

45!secind reload compared to 50 second reload doesn't make any difference when your fighting a 6th rate. It's faster to turn your ship and use your other broadside, however, within 30 to 40 seconds he's 1000 yards away. If you are fighting correctly you are never toe to toe with anything. You should be raking and moving constantly. The strength of the Connie is its ability to bounce shots. You should be angled obliquely unless you are firing your guns. However if the enemy is using chain, you want masts angled so that your sails don't provide a large area to shoot at.

This thread is about removing the ability of 6th rates to grief larger ships, 4th and above. Nowhere have I said snows are a threat to these ships, quite the opposite. No one should be forced to endure a pointless battle where even if you killed the snow, the reward is paltry  compared to time invested. I can kill a frigate or another 4th rate in less time and gain 4 to 5 times (or more) pvp marks. Also, the larger ships cannot grief you like the 6th rates can and for the most part can't engage then sail to safety in a few seconds. This is what needs to change. My time is valuable, i don't play this game so some little pissant can get his rocks off shooting my sails for an hour upwind to keep me tagged because he's butt hurt that he is impotent. If they want to fight I'm all for that, but game code that allows griefing and time wasting has to go.and quite frankly, I don't give a rats ass how it's accomplished, just so it is

 

 

 

[z4ys]

When he is going upwind why you don't sail downwind by doing so you get a fast separation. But I guess you wanted the kill so badly right? In this case you griefed yourself by hunting a better upwind ship. Shot chain at him. You have so much guns. Sail downwind leave.