January News - USS Constitution launched

[Bobbydylan]

if a player sinks a pirate with a huge bounty and a national KOS that pirate will go to jail 

 

this system is nothing new by the way. it is a very fun feature in Archeage. 

 

Apologies for my ignorance,  I've not played Archeage. What does this mean for the Player Pirate? Not that I plan to be one, but I think a game system that effectively bars a player from playing will drive forum rage.  Would it not make more sense for the Pirate to "bribe" his way out of jail for a heafty fine?

[meatpukk]

if you let the pirates pay their way out, they will just get their friends/alts to collect the bounty and use that money.
jail time looks interesting in my opinion. very hard approach that should make pirates hard to play and only for the specially interested.

[Bobbydylan]

if you let the pirates pay their way out, they will just get their friends/alts to collect the bounty and use that money.

jail time looks interesting in my opinion. very hard approach that should make pirates hard to play and only for the specially interested.

 

Not if the "bribe" is considerably more than the bounty.   I'm talking a catastrophic fine. Thinking that losing 25-50% of the pirates net worth in order to avoid the prison sentence. 

[Thomas Blackwell]

Not if the "bribe" is considerably more than the bounty.   I'm talking a catastrophic fine. Thinking that losing 25-50% of the pirates net worth in order to avoid the prison sentence. 

 

It all depends on the time involved. If it means going outside to mow the lawn, and coming back to find my newly released captain, I'll take it!

[Nikkonoffune]

I would like to see spyglass view and ship info similar to this.

 

Thumbs down on that. or somewhere in between. I am for a good spyglass view. 

 

 

Here is my opinion to the AC BF spyglass: it is cool, but unrealistic, you can NOT see how much or what cargo a ship has loaded with a spyglass, as it is stored in the cargohold. 

 

Suggestion:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfhjip83cdtmtam/AOP2_MasterSpyglass.jpg

It would be better (if possible) to add player inventory, and multiple spyglass types the player can use (Cheap - Masterwork), allowing you too see things that are actually visible:

-Cannon number (Masterwork: Type of cannons if added in the game)

-Boarding readyness/strength (I bet you can see people standing at the edge of a ship with cutlasses in hand and grins on their faces)

-Sailing speed

-Ship name

-Class

-Danger level to your ship (maybe red/green/orange ship name?)

-Sail damage

-Hull damage (depending on game mechanics maybe damage on port/starboard) 

-Ship cargo hold fullness (full / ??? / empty )

 

 

Let me explain the last point of reasoning and difference:

While you can not (seems unlikely to me at least. But hey! I am no sailor! ) a experienced (maybe add a skill + Master Spyglass to enable this) captain with a good spyglass can see how deep a ship lies and the water and how it moves in order to find out if a ship is heavily loaded or not.

 

PS: I know this has been mentioned above. But I feel it is a important.

[Wildfire]

Thumbs down on that. or somewhere in between. I am for a good spyglass view. 

 

 

Here is my opinion to the AC BF spyglass: it is cool, but unrealistic, you can NOT see how much or what cargo a ship has loaded with a spyglass, as it is stored in the cargohold. 

 

Suggestion:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfhjip83cdtmtam/AOP2_MasterSpyglass.jpg

It would be better (if possible) to add player inventory, and multiple spyglass types the player can use (Cheap - Masterwork), allowing you too see things that are actually visible:

-Cannon number (Masterwork: Type of cannons if added in the game)

-Boarding readyness/strength (I bet you can see people standing at the edge of a ship with cutlasses in hand and grins on their faces)

-Sailing speed

-Ship name

-Class

-Danger level to your ship (maybe red/green/orange ship name?)

-Sail damage

-Hull damage (depending on game mechanics maybe damage on port/starboard) 

-Ship cargo hold fullness (full / ??? / empty )

 

 

Let me explain the last point of reasoning and difference:

While you can not (seems unlikely to me at least. But hey! I am no sailor! ) a experienced (maybe add a skill + Master Spyglass to enable this) captain with a good spyglass can see how deep a ship lies and the water and how it moves in order to find out if a ship is heavily loaded or not.

 

PS: I know this has been mentioned above. But I feel it is a important.

 

I have to agree with this - I don't like the idea that you can see all the details on a ship through a telescope. IMO all you should really see through a glass is estimates - be it estimates of cargo capacity (based on the way a ship sits in the water) crew (you're going to be able to see how full / empty a ships' deck is). I think what is displayed on a spyglass should really depend on where the devs fall in the arcade v simulation question.

 

My personal preference would be to show as little information through a spyglass as possible. I think players should be using their eyes and making their own judgement - imo this would open up a huge number of possibilities in terms of gameplay

 

Now. As to the 'jail' idea for pirates in real time. I have to say, I really don't like that idea. Bounties - great. Fines - fine by me. Stopping people playing a game the way they want to because of their play style.... not so great. The choice to be a pirate should absolutely be a big one and have a great impact on a players life in the game. If they get caught, there should definitely be consequences, but I think essentially locking players out of the game could only be a bad thing. 

[TheDamDog]

On the matter of the spyglass, I think it should be assumed that the information you (as the ships captain) see is a representation of the information your crew are delivering to you.  The captain of the ship does not concern himself with counting the portholes and figuring out what sort of knots the enemy ship's rigging is using.  There are people who do that for him, who relay that information to his XO (or whoever he happens to have assigned that duty to,) who then provides the captain with what he needs to know.

Representing that information in the form of an infobox, while not 'realistic' is a very practical compromise between simply having it listed out constantly and having a voice acted first mate shout at you that you're facing a 60 gun Portuguese galleon with minor damage to her rigging and a slight list to port.

 

What I think would be cool would be a sort of 'reputation' system for ships.  As you have more success in combat (provided you leave survivors) and your ship becomes more well known, more information will be avaliable to others about it.  Crews pick things up in dive bars in port and so forth.  Your 'baseline' information is just what can be seen about it, but if you become particularly infamous people will get information about your speed, number of crew, types of guns and so forth.

[Johny Reb]

I personally like the idea about pirates going to jail, especially in this game where there will be no defined "pirate nation". Jail time is preferrable to being hung by the neck for all to see entering the port. The time a pirate is in jail should be minimum though and by that I mean a day or less but then again if it was longer it probably wouldnt bother me to much. When a pirate gets caught that player is just gonna log onto his other toon and play that till his rat is released. Other games have done similar concepts without consequences.

 

I do like the idea that you can glean information from an npc in a bar, be that information on another nations fleet or a rat in local waters. It would be easy to set up I think... If as a rat you stop in a port then the local bartender would know about his presence and be able to tell you, "Slappin Happy was seen here three days ago(game time)"

[Rudi Starnberg]

On the matter of the spyglass, I think it should be assumed that the information you (as the ships captain) see is a representation of the information your crew are delivering to you.  The captain of the ship does not concern himself with counting the portholes and figuring out what sort of knots the enemy ship's rigging is using.  There are people who do that for him, who relay that information to his XO (or whoever he happens to have assigned that duty to,) who then provides the captain with what he needs to know.

Representing that information in the form of an infobox, while not 'realistic' is a very practical compromise between simply having it listed out constantly and having a voice acted first mate shout at you that you're facing a 60 gun Portuguese galleon with minor damage to her rigging and a slight list to port.

 

What I think would be cool would be a sort of 'reputation' system for ships.  As you have more success in combat (provided you leave survivors) and your ship becomes more well known, more information will be avaliable to others about it.  Crews pick things up in dive bars in port and so forth.  Your 'baseline' information is just what can be seen about it, but if you become particularly infamous people will get information about your speed, number of crew, types of guns and so forth.

 

That information should be presented to you in a clear format is a good idea, yes. But that still doens't mean you should be able to see information like what cargo is carried or exactly how many men are on board.

[SeaSprite]

This is looking really good so far (throwing money at screen).

[BrutishVulgarian]

I would suggest a bit of a mini-game to possibly learn a bit about what's onboard a ship.   Dangerous spy missions, if you can land and retrieve spies near ports, you may learn a bit about how ships leaving that port have been outfitted.  Then I wouldn't mind the looking glass giving a reasonable guess about what's onboard a target.

 

If I ever "owned" a First Rate, I would strip out the guns and men and turn it into a real big, scary looking transport.  Someone with intelligence agents at my last port, could see through my disguise.

[Baggywrinkle]

I really like some of the info that's coming down about NA - jail time sounds fascinating, can't wait to see how it pans out. As for telescopes, I'm with the 'minimal info' group. Let people's eyes and experience (and an incredibly detailed game world?!) guide them. Learning the difference between French and English frigate design for example, or for a merchantman maybe learning to spot a French smuggler/privateer lugger from a British customs lugger through her mast-rake etc should matter. By learning you invest in the game and don't have any silly UI getting in the way. How you deal with the learning curve would be interesting, but I imagine between a decent tutorial, exams and the ability to view reference papers it should be possible to find that boundary between interesting and impossible difficulties!

 

Baggy

[Bobbydylan]

I would suggest a bit of a mini-game to possibly learn a bit about what's onboard a ship.   Dangerous spy missions, if you can land and retrieve spies near ports, you may learn a bit about how ships leaving that port have been outfitted.  Then I wouldn't mind the looking glass giving a reasonable guess about what's onboard a target.

 

If I ever "owned" a First Rate, I would strip out the guns and men and turn it into a real big, scary looking transport.  Someone with intelligence agents at my last port, could see through my disguise.

 

I kinda like this idea. It'd give you something to do on longer voyages.   I'm not what the mini game would entail, but something more than just clicking a button and getting all the info at once. 

[Deacon211]

I really like some of the info that's coming down about NA - jail time sounds fascinating, can't wait to see how it pans out. As for telescopes, I'm with the 'minimal info' group. Let people's eyes and experience (and an incredibly detailed game world?!) guide them. Learning the difference between French and English frigate design for example, or for a merchantman maybe learning to spot a French smuggler/privateer lugger from a British customs lugger through her mast-rake etc should matter. By learning you invest in the game and don't have any silly UI getting in the way. How you deal with the learning curve would be interesting, but I imagine between a decent tutorial, exams and the ability to view reference papers it should be possible to find that boundary between interesting and impossible difficulties!

 

Baggy

Hey guys,

First post here. I think what's been shown thus far is pretty amazing.

In reading this thread a question came to mind...

Is the scope of this game currently leaning towards the fog of war focus or the gameplay focus? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if, as Baggy's post kind of suggests, it is going to be possible/necessary to really interact with a ship in order to reasonably engage it?

What I mean is this. Since nations captured ships of the opposite side and often reflagged them, it would be impossible to just look at a ship and tell the owner. For instance, the Surprise. If you were off doing your good work for several months and didn't get word of the Surprise's capture, you might fire on a now friendly ship. And since I gather that flying of false flags was not uncommon (at least according to O'Brian it seems), there was always a bit of trepidation upon approaching an unknown vessel...hence that whole "signal of the day" thing of firing the windward gun and flying this flag, etc, etc.

Likewise, the practice of painting false gun ports on merchantmen and leaving your gun doors closed until engagement was certain, often as you ran up your true colors (hence the term), means that it seemed you could seldom really tell much at any distance for sure.

In gameplay terms however, the game seems to need to choose between the gameplay mechanic of pretty good (and consistent) intel or forcing the player to close to basically engagement distances perhaps only to find out that the ship was indeed a friendly brigantine or that it was a surprisingly well armed merchie, flying false colors and you are now overmatched in your Schooner...and within engagement range!

I'm curious as to the vision of the devs on how this game will play out. Stalking what turns out to be a friendly merchie might be tedious to some. Self ganking yourself by biting off what turns out to be more than you can chew will be infuriating to others.

But "scanning" the unknown adversary will surely bore the third party...and will essentially change the realistic "flavor" of the game.

Just curious, and love what I've seen so far.

Deacon

[Baggywrinkle]

Firstly, welcome Secondly, don't listen to me! I'm pretty new here and still learning fast about the game and trying to gauge exactly the same sort of thing about the dev's intentions. Don't know the answer to your question, and it's a good one and I'm looking forward to finding out.

 

To clarify my post a little: in reality the signifiers such as vessel design were near-universally known to a very high level, I'm a fan of a high level of realism, so I'm keen that something approaching this level of knowledge is instilled in the player base whether they like it or not! And whilst you're right, some vessels did swap nationalities with an alarming regularity, and false colours were flown, these things were the exception rather than the rule. This, coupled with widespread coverage if a vessel swaps navies, other physical signifiers ("cut of his jib"...), the way the vessel is handled and other environmental information (position, course and speed, apparent intenions etc) should come together to mean that it is possible to be fooled, but that most of the time you'll make the right call about the vessel you've just had pointed out by your lookout. With enough experience and knowledge

 

Just a hope for the sort of game I'd like to play, and so like to talk about...but I'm aware I probably only just fall within the bell curve of the target audience

 

Baggy

[Rudi Starnberg]

I really like some of the info that's coming down about NA - jail time sounds fascinating, can't wait to see how it pans out. As for telescopes, I'm with the 'minimal info' group. Let people's eyes and experience (and an incredibly detailed game world?!) guide them. Learning the difference between French and English frigate design for example, or for a merchantman maybe learning to spot a French smuggler/privateer lugger from a British customs lugger through her mast-rake etc should matter. By learning you invest in the game and don't have any silly UI getting in the way. How you deal with the learning curve would be interesting, but I imagine between a decent tutorial, exams and the ability to view reference papers it should be possible to find that boundary between interesting and impossible difficulties!

 

Baggy

 

This is a good idea, but you need to be aware of a couple of points. It's fine to not show too much information in the UI, provided there is an alternitive means of learning, i.e. a indentification guide that explains the diferences between nation's ships. It's true that navies did not (as far as I know) provide any kind of identifcation guides, but in this case it would be a necessary gameplay concession. If you just rely on people knowing the diferences between a french and british frigate, o doing their own research to find out, you will drive away an unacceptably large amount of players.

 

Aslo i feel that tutorials would not really be adaquate, especialy if they are seperate from the main game. I don't think most people want to sit through several hours of tutorial (which would be necessary). Possibly you could have a "soft" tutorial, the first 10 times you see a ship it tells you what it is and explains how to recognise it again. That would be better, but I strongly suspect the majority of players would either skim the text and not really absorb it or else just close it without even reading it.

 

Personaly I feel that stuff that was common knowledge to a captain of the time, but is not to most people now, should be presented to you as part of the UI. Afterall, we are playing as 18th century captains, not as 21st century people sudenly sent back 200 years and promoted to captain without any training.

[Baggywrinkle]

I entirely agree with that

 

" a decent tutorial, exams and the ability to view reference papers" - these sound like alternative means of learning...? But yeah, I agree. Interesting and valid point re tutorials. How about the first 10 times your lookout includes the relevant information ("Sail ho! Larboard bow, 3 points off, 12 miles. Looks like a merchant from that sloppy sail trim!" or whatever), or have your sailing master give you a hint based on what vessel it is and where it is in relation to you. I don't particularly like the UI idea though, just because it encourages players to read rather than learn and invest in the game...

[Brigand]

I think the game should not shy away from a steap learning curve. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the EVE learning curve image:

 

This was, for quite some time, the best advertisement for EVE. People started playing the game because it was brutal. If you liked a safe environment to learn the basics, EVE was not the game for you. This resulted in a very loyal player base, mostly consisting of 'older' players who build a long term relationship with the game.

 

There are also a lot of people out there that do not feel like investing too much time into learning the game. This is generally speaking the same group of players that has short lived relations with games. They like this game now, instant gratification, and then they like the next shiney new title. If you are not required to invest time, to work for your progress, the resulting feeling of accomplishment is also short lived.

 

~Brigand

[Baggywrinkle]

A quick temper to that is that I think most gamers who went for EVE were familiar with the tropes and shorthands of the space/sci-fi genre. There's an understanding that whilst the game might be brutual, it's also Star Wars and Star Trek and 2001 and all these good things that we've sort of invented to make the genre effective for film and game audiences. The genre is fundamentally artificial, and so efficient and effective at audience manipulation. Like film music, for example. It's sole purpose is to crowbar your emotions into whatever position is required for a particular scene to be effective. It's very good at that. However, it doesn't have the depth or genuine emotional power of, say, a Mahler symphony or the narrative and humanity of a shanty.

 

I think we must be wary when making these comparisons, because this game and this genre will be an entirely unknown quantity to a good proportion of first time players. The standard images, language and references that to us are totally natural and obvious will risk alienating new players. A good collection of reference materials will be essential, as will some form of sympathetic induction to get people thinking in an appropriate way. Then let the brutality begin

 

Baggy

[admin]

Having a complex and deep mechanics in the game does not mean it should be hostile to rookies. Rookie must have a chance to defend himself, and have a decent chance to win because of sheer bravery for example.

 

Also (some people might not like this statement of ours) we don't like EvE as a place to live in.

CCP does nothing about actively promotes tear extracting business, scamming, trolling, stealing, lying, killing corpmates, trolling and humiliating enemies. There are great people and clans in EvE, but most often you hear about EvE in regards of some corporate theft, which is considered awesome gameplay.  

 

This is not a world we are building - remember defeated player in 19th center was allowed to keep his sword, and had dinner with the victorious captain.

Honor and Captain's word - was something people kept and were proud of. 

 

One of the things we like EVE is its crafting and trading. 

[Thomas Blackwell]

Having a complex and deep mechanics in the game does not mean it should be hostile to rookies. Rookie must have a chance to defend himself, and have a decent chance to win because of sheer bravery for example.

 

Also (some people might not like this statement of ours) we don't like EvE as a place to live in.

CCP does nothing about actively promotes tear extracting business, scamming, trolling, stealing, lying, killing corpmates, trolling and humiliating enemies. There are great people and clans in EvE, but most often you hear about EvE in regards of some corporate theft, which is considered awesome gameplay.  

 

This is not a world we are building - remember defeated player in 19th center was allowed to keep his sword, and had dinner with the victorious captain.

Honor and Captain's word - was something people kept and were proud of. 

 

One of the things we like EVE is its crafting and trading. 

 

Well said. I'm not sure if bravery alone should see a man through a fight, though coupled with unpredictable tactics and a few well placed shots, he may be able to ward off an attacker, or in the very least flee from him.

 

I've always loved the civility of the 18th and 19th century captain. Though it was rare for a defeated captain to keep his sword, it was ultimately up to the victor. As Jack Aubrey said to the doctor in one of his books (cant remember which), "I think I shall allow him to keep his sword, it takes away from the sting of defeat."

 

All in all, try not to completely wrap gameplay in impact foam, and what I mean by that is yes EVE is a difficult place to live, but corporations and alliances are built on trust. It is easy to misplace that trust in such an environment, but if you find the right people then you'll remain friends for years to come, both inside and outside of the game. I should know... four years later and some of my now best friends were from EVE. In my mind, it would be a shame to completely take that away from Naval Action.

[admin]

All in all, try not to completely wrap gameplay in impact foam, and what I mean by that is yes EVE is a difficult place to live, but corporations and alliances are built on trust. It is easy to misplace that trust, but if you find the right people then you'll remain friends for years to come, both inside and outside the game. I should know... four years later and some of my now best friends were from EVE. In my mind, it would be a shame to completely take that away from Naval Action.

 

That we will try very hard to keep. Some of our team members met in POTBS  - seriously. 

[Thomas Blackwell]

That we will try very hard to keep. Some of our team members met in POTBS  - seriously. 

 

Some people laugh at me when I say I have never met many of my friends, but I retort 'how many friends do you have in England, Canada, Australia, United States, Russia, China, Dubai, South Korea, New Zealand, and the Netherlands?' At which point they sort of look down and shuffle their feet awkwardly.

[Brigand]

Having a complex and deep mechanics in the game does not mean it should be hostile to rookies. Rookie must have a chance to defend himself, and have a decent chance to win because of sheer bravery for example.

 

Also (some people might not like this statement of ours) we don't like EvE as a place to live in.

CCP actively promotes does nothing about tear extracting business, scamming, trolling, stealing, lying, killing corpmates, trolling and humiliating enemies. There are great people and clans in EvE, but most often you hear about EvE in regards of some corporate theft, which is considered awesome gameplay.

Hmm, let me add some nuance to my previous post.

There is a lot of things I do not like about EVE, the glorification of scamming and grieving is on the top of that list.

The thing I tried to point out is that a game should not shy away from difficult, deep and complex game mechanics.

EVE lacks good tutorials, which contributed to the steap learning curve a lot, which is quite a bad thing.

However, there are many games out there that try to flatten the learning curve by removing complex mechanics and make the success-threshold as low as possible. I think this is the other end of the scale and I would very much like to see this avoided.

Cheers,

Brigand

[Rudi Starnberg]

Having a complex and deep mechanics in the game does not mean it should be hostile to rookies. Rookie must have a chance to defend himself, and have a decent chance to win because of sheer bravery for example.

 

Also (some people might not like this statement of ours) we don't like EvE as a place to live in.

CCP does nothing about actively promotes tear extracting business, scamming, trolling, stealing, lying, killing corpmates, trolling and humiliating enemies. There are great people and clans in EvE, but most often you hear about EvE in regards of some corporate theft, which is considered awesome gameplay.  

 

This is not a world we are building - remember defeated player in 19th center was allowed to keep his sword, and had dinner with the victorious captain.

Honor and Captain's word - was something people kept and were proud of. 

 

One of the things we like EVE is its crafting and trading. 

 

Just out of curiosity, are you going to make any efforts to enforce or encourage hounurable behaviour? I'm kind of torn on the point, on the one hand it would be nice to have people behaving somewhat like an 18th century captain would, but on the other hand I wouldn't like to see much freedom of action sacrificed to acheive that. Something like enforced surrender for example, 90% of players will fight to the death because why not, they have nothing to loose. You could force them to surrender if say 50% of their crew die, but that could be very fustrating for people.

 

Eve is the obvious comparison here, and while many people hate it for the greifing and scamming in the game, you must remember that that is exactly the game the devs set out to create. The question is how to create a game that encourages people to accept surrenders, keep their word, ect, without becoming WoW in ships. As Eve proves, just giving your actions consequences isn't enough, people will band together to nulify the effects of crimes. But making piracy impossible would not be a good idea either, a fun game needs villians too.

 

E: Just to make it clear, I have played Eve and am all about being a total asehole there and love it, but I don't think that's the kind of game NA should try to be.