How to possibly fix "sail-spam"

[AKPyrate]

I'm all for it taking longer to set sails, but as I mentioned above, scandalizing a sail (casting off the sheets/tacks and clewing up) is a relatively quick option if you're running and aren't able to spill the wind/back the squares without turning significantly off course.  Add to that the current thrust provided by stays'ls that is not always easy to counter and I don't see 'sail spamming' as anything more than graphically unrealistic.  The actual effects on the boats could be achieved with a more complex method of control, which would move this game closer to a simulation (which would have its own set of drawbacks).  I'd be more interested in getting the stays'l thrust under control (at least have a way to minimize it if you want to sail backwards or reduce to 'plain sail', which was often used in battle for simplicity).

[maturin]

 

(casting off the sheets/tacks and clewing up)

This is 'clewing up,' actually. And it's what I imagine what all the ships currently do when you press 'S'. That's why it happens so fast, there are no men on the yards, and the yards stay hoisted.

 

Now if only the animations and sail models would reflect this, we would be golden. Like the small frigate in this video.

 

Scandalizing a square sail generally means casting off the lifts so that the yard rests on the cap. But you stay sheeted home so that you have a baggy, billowing sail that isn't very efficient. 

 

Edit: Although I wouldn't be surprised if there were a variety of contradictory usages of the word. I've just remembered at least one.

[AKPyrate]

 

Scandalize To reduce the area and efficiency of a sail by expedient means (slacking the peak and tricing up the tack) without properly reefing, thus slowing boat speed. Also used in the past as a sign of mourning. -Wikipedia (quickest reference for me atm)

 

 

 

While this is normally done on gaff riggers by either hoisting the clew up to the throat area of the gaff or dipping the peak of the gaff to drastically diminish the effectiveness of the sail.  As with the gaff rigged sails, there are multiple ways to scandalize any sail.  When racing modern boats, we'd sometimes 'scandalize' the main by easing the vang and sheet together, often to prevent being over powered and broaching, but also for maneuvering in tight situations.  Scandalizing is just depowering the sail in some way that is easy to undo at a moment's notice.  Clewing up is one way, dropping the halyard and 'quick reefing' is another.

[AKPyrate]

The references I was looking for now:

 

...and the mizzen topsail 'scandalized', the yard being settled on the cap, the reef tackles hauled out, but the sheets left home.

 

Seamanship in the Age of Sail, p. 126

 

 

The above confirms that your definition of scandalizing a square sail is correct.

 

 

...the fore topsail is furled, although its yard is hoisted full up. Lever (82) calls this 'scandalising the fore topsail yard'. [sic]

 

Ibid., p. 158

 

Though the topsail is completely furled (as opposed to just clewed up), the yard is fully raised here.  Both called scandalized, but different methods.  Clewing up is the specific action I described, but scandalizing is the purpose for clewing up in this case (as opposed to reefing, furling, maneuvering, etc.).  Often the lowest course sails are clewed up during tacking, though I've seen it done in light winds with them fully set.

 

Edit: A great way to think of scandalizing a sail is like heaving to a ship.  There are multiple specific ways, but they all fall under the term 'heaving to'.

Edited April 17, 2015 by AKPyrate

[ObiQuiet]

Good discussion.  Couldn't stop thinking about it, so decided to jot some rough ideas down...

 

I can imagine a hypothetical game model where there are some additional advanced sail settings and factors, but not too much:

 

furling/-ed (*)- no chance of damage or fires(**), long transition time, long time to gain or lose speed, no heel, maximum rolling

clewed-up - reduced chance of damage or fires, medium transition time, medium time to gain or lose speed, no heel, ? rolling

hove-to - full chance of damage or fires, medium transition time, quick to lose speed, medium to regain speed, no heel, minimal rolling

shivering (***) - full chance or damage or fires, quick transition time, medium time to lose speed but quick to regain speed, normal heel, normal rolling

battle (fits into the scheme too) - reduced chance of damage or fire, long transition time, long time to gain or lose speed, normal heel, but reduced rolling.

 

... or something like that.  Interpolated from descriptions of IRL in "Fighting at Sea in the Eighteenth Century", about the various postures captains could choose from when approaching an unknown ship. (Willis, 2008)

 

(* slow/stop/half/full could be incremental points within this mode)

(** "fires" -- sails being set alight by our own burning wads blowing back on us.  "damage" -- from incoming shot)

(*** perhaps effectively the same as "scandalized"?)

Edited April 16, 2015 by Lt. Obiquiet

[Foghorne]

I think a longer time to change Sail state would fix the Problem...IMO

 

going from ZERO SAIL and into Zero sail should take a Long time..... and other sail state not as long but overall still longer than the Present game state

 

My opinion is much the same as Mr. AP514 - greatly, greatly increase the time between asking for a sail change (W or S), and implementing that sail change.  A/D should work the same as they do today.  Fully furling sails (0%) and then going back from 0 to 25% should take twice the amount of time that the increased time for sail changes will take.  Make it a punishment to go to 0 sails and people will stop doing it.

 

I totally agree....and 50% more time sounds like a good starting point...........Programmers...get hot  

I agree with these posts and I am surprised more people haven't expressed the same.  Watching privateers sink Constitutions with the stern camp/sail spam is beyond my suspension of disbelief.  Saw a Trinc stern camp/sail spam a Victory the other day...i thought "jet ski".  zip/stop, zip/stop

 

If this game mechanic remains and I see small ships taking down much larger vessels, I don't see myself playing this game too long.  If this happens to me in open world and I see my little stern camper knows how to do this I'll just go to immediate surrender.   Be the only sane thing to do rather than watch him kill 300 sailors in the next 15 minutes.

[DeRuyter]

If you search I believe there are other threads with concerns about "sail spam". So I think you'll find many others share your concern. Typically square rigged ships would stop by "heaving to" (counter balancing the force of the wind so as to come to a stop) and not by completely furling all sails. This would be even harder to do in a fore and aft rigged ship like the privateer. There are a number of ways that ships maneuvered and changed their speed during battle, but completely furling and then setting sail is not one of them.

[Capt-Pugwash]

Hi my idea is you can only change sail when in sailing mode and changing modes take approx 30 secs to complete which would stop the yoyo sailing.

This would simulate the time it would take for the crews to take up position to do a task.

What do you think.

[Prater]

The experts make it seem like changing sails is easy.

 

The issue is using Stop (0% sails) to slow down and stop (usually in stern camping) or to shoot.  Another issue is using Stop to turn. 

 

Inertia needs to be adjusted.  It should be faster to slow down using your sails and yards than it is to go to Stop 0% sails.  There should also be a penalty to going to stop.  Say Stop puts down the anchor.  It now has to be cut (in which case you can't go to stop anymore) or retrieved (takes time to weigh anchor so you aren't moving for like 30 seconds).

 

Having to be in sailing mode to change sails and then it takes 30 seconds doesn't seem right at all.  Sailing mode might be ok, but 30 seconds?

[maturin]

A stern camper is always in sailing mode, remember.

[Capt-Pugwash]

Hi, sorry but I was probably not very clear on what I intended or am in the wrong post. I was looking at one aspect seen through videos as I am not a tester yet. 

My observation was that sail could be made or shortened when in gunnery mode at the press of a button with no time delay( if everyone is at their gun posts there is no one left to change sails ). In reality there would be a command of prepare to shorten sail for example at which time designated members of a watch would take up positions to carry out that command. 

Therefore not being able to change sails in gunnery mode and a sufficient delay when changing to sailing mode ie getting the crew up into the rigging etc.

The 30 sec delay was a figure I thought reasonable for playability and would make captains plan ahead a little. When in sailing mode the time taken to lower or raise would be as it is now although I think it needs a slight alteration, taking in sail should take slightly longer but this is just down to the animation.

Hope this straightens out my badly conveyed 1st post

[Mr. Doran]

A stern camper is always in sailing mode, remember.

 

Doran is in every mode.