Spotting and visibility and fog.

[JCDC]

I cant stand the spotting/visibility/fog mechanics anymore. Its made the game so frustrating its unplayable.

This has been an issue for 2 years and nothing has changed.
 

 

I dont understand why this entire game is played in perpetual fog, both visually and mechanics wise. Only being able to spot ships when they are 3-6km away on a fine clear day is just nonsensical. I have all these battles where I steam towards the enemy and they ambush me like its in a thick forest or something. The AI always spots first, and starts firing, and then all of them instantly dump smoke, and you just end up in this confusing nonsense of not really being able to see where the enemy fleet is.

Please don't quote arguments of realism, I spend a lot of time by and on the sea, and am painfully and intimately aware of how things look and appear at different distances. not being able to spot a destroyer sized ship until its 4km away in fine weather is rubbish, it has no basis in reality. Im tired of it, i've been playing the beta for years on and off and despite a lot of talk about this, nothing has changed.

Please, just let us be able to see the enemy fleet before the shooting starts, to allow some tactics and positioning and planning, rather than just groping around in the fog until the enemy mess/furball of ships appears. there is so much wonderful stuff about this game, and so much stuff that isnt great yet but is rapidly improving, but this issue never changes.

This is not what the sea looks like on a typical day. It just isnt.

this is what a fleet/seascape looks like on a typical day.



Please, please, please...please, please.. just tone down the fog and increase the spotting distances. please. I just want to be able to see the game I am playing, and see the enemy I am playing against.

[neph]

Fully agreed. At LEAST please render smoke from ships beyond the "horizon"!

[Littorio]

They won't listen I am afraid. I too said this a ways back and it remains my main issue with the game and why I do not play anymore and instead watch and wait. As shown by their current woes, there are simply far too many basic and simple issues with the product. To embark upon scrapping the current ridiculous spotting system and implementing something better would require too many manpower hours to spare, and would undoubtedly (with their quality control or lack thereof), spawn infinitely more bugs that will be nigh impossible to unravel.

Unless something changes in their organization, I don't foresee this ever being meaningfully addressed. I had high hopes for this product but it's star is rapidly extinguishing.

[SonicB]

On 11/28/2022 at 1:27 AM, Littorio said:

They won't listen I am afraid. I too said this a ways back and it remains my main issue with the game and why I do not play anymore and instead watch and wait. As shown by their current woes, there are simply far too many basic and simple issues with the product.

Yeah, this and a few other basic issues of lazy, WoWs style arcade logic haven't been addressed in years, and devs have not given any indication that they intend to correct them.

I had such high hopes for this game, but I hardly play any more and find I can't recommend it to anyone with my priorities. Maybe the devs just don't want to make the kind of game I want to play.

[admiralsnackbar]

Has any reason been given for why it is the way it is?

I ask as someone who has complained about ship cloaking devices for what feels like 2-3 years. 

 

[Skeksis]

4 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

Has any reason been given for why it is the way it is?

"Realistic Visibility

Depending on battle conditions, fleets may start an engagement from beyond visible range. Spotting the enemy in Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts will be a realistic procedure that succeeds in accordance with ship technology and tactical maneuvering. Screening with light ships ahead of battleships will ensure the enemy does not surprise you with a torpedo attack.

Torpedoes will be visible according to their propulsion technology and your ship's own countermeasures. Early technology will allow hydrophone stations which will help detecting standard torpedoes at long ranges. Electric torpedoes though will be so stealthy that only sonar equipment will be capable of catching them."

Deep Battle System | UA: Dreadnoughts (ultimateadmiral.com)

Note: "engagement from beyond visible range", it's one of the game's design parameters and coming from the official web site, was/is a part of the original concept. Also note: "Screening with light ships...", this here gives away the exact countermeasure, i.e. for how to play the game.  

[admiralsnackbar]

26 minutes ago, Skeksis said:

"Realistic Visibility

Depending on battle conditions, fleets may start an engagement from beyond visible range. Spotting the enemy in Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts will be a realistic procedure that succeeds in accordance with ship technology and tactical maneuvering. Screening with light ships ahead of battleships will ensure the enemy does not surprise you with a torpedo attack.

Torpedoes will be visible according to their propulsion technology and your ship's own countermeasures. Early technology will allow hydrophone stations which will help detecting standard torpedoes at long ranges. Electric torpedoes though will be so stealthy that only sonar equipment will be capable of catching them."

Deep Battle System | UA: Dreadnoughts (ultimateadmiral.com)

Note: "engagement from beyond visible range", it's one of the game's design parameters and coming from the official web site, was/is a part of the original concept. Also note: "Screening with light ships...", this here gives away the exact countermeasure, i.e. for how to play the game.  

Sounds like it's a feature. I think rhetoric like this would be fine in a 1930+ campaign where torpedoes are a long range phenomenon. And I do put screens ahead of my capital ships by default. 

But in practice [in the campaign] it amounts to:  torpedo boats appearing within the turning radius of a battleship. Ships so stealthy they can slip in between a screen. Stealth firing. Chasing invisible fleets. 

[Skeksis]

4 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

I think rhetoric like this

Not rhetoric, actual. Why would you use that word anyway, are you trying to put a slight on the game, if personal attack then you should know by now it won't have any effect, even against the game. 

4 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

Ships so stealthy they can slip in between a screen

Then wouldn't you admit that allowing TBs to get so close or "slipping in between", is actually a serious tactical error on your part and OPs. Rather than a game flaw.

4 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

Stealth firing

Challanges the player. Gives dynamic tactical dimension to the player decision making.

4 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

Chasing invisible fleets

Challanges the player designs in creating multiple ships fit for specialized purpose which then leads into battlefield tactical prowess and experience.

In short, battles are not boring (excluding AI designs - WIP).

Edited December 2, 2022 by Skeksis

[SpardaSon21]

17 minutes ago, Skeksis said:

Not rhetoric, actual. Why would you use that word anyway, are you trying to put a slight on the game, if personal attack then you should know by now it won't have any effect, even against the game. 

Then wouldn't you admit that allowing TBs to get so close or "slipping in between", is actually a serious tactical error on your part and OPs. Rather than a game flaw.

Challanges the player. Gives dynamic tactical dimension to the player decision making.

Challanges the player designs in creating multiple ships fit for specialized purpose which then leads into battlefield tactical prowess and experience.

In short, battles are not boring (excluding AI designs - WIP).

You are the only person saying that being unable to spot a TB that's 500m from a battleship in broad daylight is acceptable.  Not even the devs are saying that because they're not saying anything at all.  Stop it, and get some help.

[Lastreaumont]

6 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

You are the only person saying that being unable to spot a TB that's 500m from a battleship in broad daylight is acceptable.  Not even the devs are saying that because they're not saying anything at all.  Stop it, and get some help.

Did you remember what were the weather conditions modifiers when you encountered these stealthy torpedo boats? (the ones given by the game at top left, not the nice vibe displayed)

I suffered a lot during my 1st ambushes of my BB by small stealthy TB or DD. Now I take care about the weather conditions at the beginnig of the battle and don't use direct paths towards the enemy (or the direction of where it is supposed to be). The goal is to approach carefully to be able to start a tactical retreat before contact (*) and, the most important, before the massive torpedoes swarm launch. 

With some practice, stealthy tiny boats aren't a problem anymore. 

(*): How do I know I'm close to the enemy if I don't see it? If I don't have radar, I ask to the time accelerator... 😉☺️

Edited December 2, 2022 by Lastreaumont
Correcting mistakes

[Skeksis]

3 hours ago, Lastreaumont said:

With some practice, stealthy tiny boats aren't a problem anymore. 

Yeah, spotting overall is pretty much balanced.

If you start at the base, 1890, torp range is about 3.1km and min detectability for TBs is 1.6+ if opponent tower is disabled, so torps can be launch blind, these cases are very rare. But with undamaged towers, spotting max ranges are TBs 3.1, CL 4.8, CA 6.1, BB 7.1km. So, if you build escorts with torpedo carrying TBs countermeasures in mind and apply appropriate tactics, torpedo's aren't that effective. IMO, this is demonstrative throughout all timeframes.  

Stealth and torpedo detection levels have been rebalanced in or about Alpha-7. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Skeksis

[admiralsnackbar]

10 hours ago, Skeksis said:

Not rhetoric, actual. Why would you use that word anyway, are you trying to put a slight on the game, if personal attack then you should know by now it won't have any effect, even against the game. 

Then wouldn't you admit that allowing TBs to get so close or "slipping in between", is actually a serious tactical error on your part and OPs. Rather than a game flaw.

Challanges the player. Gives dynamic tactical dimension to the player decision making.

Challanges the player designs in creating multiple ships fit for specialized purpose which then leads into battlefield tactical prowess and experience.

In short, battles are not boring (excluding AI designs - WIP).

I don't use the word rhetoric as something derogatory. The choice of language in describing the game means that the very short spotting distance of ships is intentional. If they want to make torpedo boats invisible beyond 1km range as a design decision in order to force the player to surround their capital ship with a ring of destroyers that's their choice. 

I'm not bothered on the grounds that it's overpowered: Torpedoes are now rather weak (not as low damage as they used to be but that's offset by the added inaccuracy and unreliability)) also you can design battleships with secondary's and torpedo defenses that can destroy dozens of destroyers and torpedo boats without an escort. 

But I don't like surrounding my capital ship with destroyers/CLs set on 'screen' especially with them close by especially with the default 'Avoid' 

Also, I suspect I think players will still complain about how often they have to chase invisible fleets. I expect visible smoke trails to be one of those things that gets added as a mod almost immediately after release. 

Putting the AI on for the ship usually gets the ship in the right direction but I've also seen it cause the ship to make very tight turns left and right continuously. Maybe it's trying to chase two ships? No way to know for sure. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by admiralsnackbar

[SpardaSon21]

18 hours ago, Lastreaumont said:

Did you remember what were the weather conditions modifiers when you encountered these stealthy torpedo boats? (the ones given by the game at top left, not the nice vibe displayed)

 

I haven't touched this game in almost a month due to a lack of bug fixes and overall frustration with incomplete and unexplained additions.  You'll forgive me if I don't have anything on-hand to reply with.

[Suribachi]

On 12/2/2022 at 7:44 AM, Lastreaumont said:

Did you remember what were the weather conditions modifiers when you encountered these stealthy torpedo boats? (the ones given by the game at top left, not the nice vibe displayed)

Got a scenario for you if you have a moment.

Campaign, 1903 tech currently.  My 5 DDs just spotted the enemy force: 1 DD at 2.6km and 1 CL at 3.4km.  Weather conditions:  Daytime, Cloudy Weather, Gentle Breeze, Slight Waves.

I also included a screenshot showing my DD's configuration of tech, towers and the like if that makes a difference.

Does this sound about right for the spotting mechanics? 

Unfortunately, I didn't think of grabbing a screenshot when the same DD taskforce came across a lone CA, thus a larger vessel, but it was spotted well within my 5.1 km torp range if memory serves.  If it happens again I will document it.

 

EDIT:  Something I did not think of until after I posted this.  For someone that is 6ft in height, standing on the water the horizon for them should be about 4.83km away on a clear day.  Just for the sake of conversation, shouldn't that mean that the minimum spotting distance for a DD spotting anything be more than that on a clear day being's that the DD's freeboard is lifting the observer up of the sea level, not to mention use of towers as well as the observed vessel's masts being off the water as well?

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Suribachi
more details, spelling

[Finwenolofinwe]

2 hours ago, Suribachi said:

EDIT:  Something I did not think of until after I posted this.  For someone that is 6ft in height, standing on the water the horizon for them should be about 4.83km away on a clear day.  Just for the sake of conversation, shouldn't that mean that the minimum spotting distance for a DD spotting anything be more than that on a clear day being's that the DD's freeboard is lifting the observer up of the sea level, not to mention use of towers as well as the observed vessel's masts being off the water as well?

It should be noted that another 6ft tall person would be visible as sticking over the horizon and (with sufficient magnification and clear air) clearly outlined against the sky at almost double that distance.