Get rid of the WOWS style concealment/spotting system. really.....

[madham82]

1 hour ago, Danelin Aruna said:

And i don't remember but you can correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't size of target play a fact into the accuracy? A smaller destroyer is harder to hit the a larger Battleship at longer ranges. So instead of some byzantine stealth mechanic just modify chance to hit based on hull size, or tonnage. I know the game applies a malus for "fast moving targets", haven't tested that and see if its effected by turret rotation tech, or what the speed need to reach is considered for the malus. 

There is a target size penalty currently which I believe is related to the hull types/sizes. I'm not sure what the values for it look like, but I would say it works well enough.

The fast moving target was one myself and others badgered the Devs enough to nerf significantly. It still is not calculated correctly from my experience as ships not maneuvering still have it. At one point BCs with 37+kt speeds were unable to be hit by any ship, so we have came a long way on it. Turret rotation, which would be the only thing a straight fast moving ship could take advantage of (and even then only at close ranges) doesn't impact it. It is calculated directly by the speed of the target ship (and supposedly takes into account the ship maneuvering). 

There's another penalty currently broken, maneuvering itself. A ship doing 1kt with the rudder hard over gets the same penalty as a 30kt DD with the rudder full. Just goes to show it is hard to tell what kind of changes to make to the game with lots of fundamental mechanics broke or out of balance. 

To be fair to @Skeksis, we have largely inflated accuracy numbers already. The reason is gameplay, and some sacrifices are needed for the sake of it. The topic of this thread is not one of them IMO. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by madham82

[brucesim2003]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:48 PM, admiralsnackbar said:

No ship that small has a cloaking device.

It's used a grappling claw to hide on your bridge tower.

[Littorio]

3 hours ago, Danelin Aruna said:

I concur, i would like to see a better more intuitive system as well, and RTW2 is the benchmark for me in this regard, I've played both those games and sunk in way more hours in them then i care to admit.

 

 

Well this might be what the game is going for, it really isn't that fun, especially when the AI for the most part attempts to retreat in the battle anyway. And i don't remember but you can correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't size of target play a fact into the accuracy? A smaller destroyer is harder to hit the a larger Battleship at longer ranges. So instead of some byzantine stealth mechanic just modify chance to hit based on hull size, or tonnage. I know the game applies a malus for "fast moving targets", haven't tested that and see if its effected by turret rotation tech, or what the speed need to reach is considered for the malus. 

I know at 1910 I get pretty decent returns on long range gunnery. I've engaged and scored hits at 9000-10000 meter range which is historically accurate. Now I can see weather, storms in what not allowing people to see the approaching ships until later. But i know i for one at long range would focus on the ships that could damage and reach me at the range. Plus the argument about needing to use this to preserve light forces so they can use there torpedoes in my experience only benefits the AI in my view. This is simply because ships can turn on dimes to avoid torpedo's, and you have to be really close to actually score a hit. It doesn't matter if my Torpedoes can go 9 or 12 kilometers when i can barley get hits a 2000 meters.

It also might help if smoke dropped by DD's and CL's actually spread a smoke screen as it happened historically, instead of being a little blob that hovered over the ships. That would help you can then setup smoke screens to allow your light forces close and then dip behind the screen to break contact. I just think there's better ways to handle it then the current system, that imo favors the AI over the player.

 

 

Smoke DEFINITELY needs a rework, not just how it works mechanically in the game on the battlefield, but in the AI logic on when to deploy it. Ironically, the only times I have found some enemies is when one of their number blunders into me, say a CL, pops smoke, and suddenly way out in the "fog" I see another 3-4 magic smoke rings. Funny how that renders and is visible but not exhaust, or God forbid, the hull itself! 😆 The first AI cruiser goes "Crap I need to escape." I have no issue with that. But all his buddies who haven't even made contact should not waste their smoke. It seems they all act like a hive mind as one...

[Hardlec]

At night, light from a match can be seen from the Horizon.

A Battleship has towers as much as 30 meters above the water line.  BB to BB were often sighted at over 60 nautical miles.

Running silent, Submariners could hear surface ships miles away.  My brother was on duty when the Iowa was bombarding Irag.  They heard the 16 inchers, under water, over 100 miles away.

Of course, hitting something is a lot different than seeing it.

[WhoCares]

3 hours ago, Hardlec said:

At night, light from a match can be seen from the Horizon.

A Battleship has towers as much as 30 meters above the water line.  BB to BB were often sighted at over 60 nautical miles.

Running silent, Submariners could hear surface ships miles away.  My brother was on duty when the Iowa was bombarding Irag.  They heard the 16 inchers, under water, over 100 miles away.

Of course, hitting something is a lot different than seeing it.

I don't know where your numbers come from - Iowa and Yamato have a mast height of ~180ft (might be radio masts...). But using that value and putting it into a LoS calculator, I get a view range to the horizon of ~26.5km, mast to mast that would doubled, ~53km or about 28 nm.

As for sound under water, that's a rather tricky one as well, especially comparing lateral sound distribution right under the surface relevant in the context of the game. Hearing enemy ships or torpedos with a hydrophone on a (fast moving?) surface vessel - good luck.

A submerged submarine 50 or 100m down on the other hand, that's a whole different topic - and a different game, you might want to give the game "Cold Waters" a try.

[Danelin Aruna]

16 minutes ago, WhoCares said:

I don't know where your numbers come from - Iowa and Yamato have a mast height of ~180ft (might be radio masts...). But using that value and putting it into a LoS calculator, I get a view range to the horizon of ~26.5km, mast to mast that would doubled, ~53km or about 28 nm.

As for sound under water, that's a rather tricky one as well, especially comparing lateral sound distribution right under the surface relevant in the context of the game. Hearing enemy ships or torpedos with a hydrophone on a (fast moving?) surface vessel - good luck.

A submerged submarine 50 or 100m down on the other hand, that's a whole different topic - and a different game, you might want to give the game "Cold Waters" a try.

I really hope submarines are abstracted like in RTW's as during this time period subs really didnt interact with fleet maneuvers or take part in battles between fleets.

[WhoCares]

2 hours ago, Danelin Aruna said:

I really hope submarines are abstracted like in RTW's as during this time period subs really didnt interact with fleet maneuvers or take part in battles between fleets.

They didn't interact very successful with fleet maneuvers., but not for the lack of trying. In preparation for plenty of fleet ops it was tried to put sub cordons outside enemy ports or near the area of operation in the likely path of the enemy. Like the sub sinking Yorktown after Midway was part of a force of 13 subs on station supporting the Midway operation, or American subs sinking some cruisers of the Japanese fleet on their way to Leyte Gulf.

Also already for Jutland:

Quote

Ten submarines—U-24, U-32, U-43, U-44, UC-47, U-51, U-52, U-63, U-66, and U-70—were given orders first to patrol in the central North Sea between 17 and 22 May, and then to take up waiting positions. ...

Each boat had an allocated area, within which it could move around as necessary to avoid detection, but was instructed to keep within it. .... Once at their final positions, the boats were under strict orders to avoid premature detection that might give away the operation. It was arranged that a coded signal would be transmitted to alert the submarines exactly when the operation commenced: "Take into account the enemy's forces may be putting to sea".

But of course, they indeed played no role in the actual fleet battles. It was about wittling down the approaching enemy and/or picking of stragglers afterwards. In the heat of the battle you don't also want to have to worry about some random periscope sticking out in the vincinity of your ships, not knowing whether friend or foe...

Edited December 8, 2021 by WhoCares

[Hardlec]

Early BBs had watch towers, not radio towers. 30 meters/90 feet is a good approximation.

While serving, I was told the distance a light could be seen was 60 miles.

Numbers aside, the game does not provide anything like the whole area for a small fleet engagement.  The ocean is big, ships are small, but they can see a long way.