Reki Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 If several ships are bunched up so you can get 2 or 3 or 4 ships with one broadside, you would be dumb not to go for it (unless the front one is badly beat up and would sink from a broadside to the hull). Call him and the others a coward all you want, but it is valid tactics so get used to it. So is kiting. Oh come one, i was like 30 second near another ship before me, when actual fight started. 99% of fight I sail with no allies near. If i got 3 repairs spend to mast repairing and it ends on 70% only, it should be much longer time to use that smart reason behinde demast acting. Some of them tryed to takes more of my dear masts again but was not so lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reki Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Arisu, I remember you vigorously defending "kiting cowards" not long ago. that time it was about wind pressure. I got nothing versus it. This time is about demasting, which is OP, and provides benefits for kiting. When you are kited in usual way it is position game, where you shooting each other in normal way. In case of demast its just to easy to get kiting bonuses for free. i'm not offer here to remove demasting. Just talking about its too easy now. p.s. i changed nickname to one i have in Steam. Actually this nickname have 10 years story, and Arisu just name of my french character in potbs, which i choose to register here to be recognized by some mates, if theyr appear on this site. Since we have steam testing i think its normal to rename in steam nick. When i got prev nick Arisu, some guys start talking to me with that "Reki", when they find out my Steam nickname, it was like if they know some scarry secret of mine. I rename myself to it and now here you talking to me that "Arisu", like if you know another one scarry secret about me. So, please, use current nickname. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Essington Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Piece of Prater even put like to your post. what a shame. That was pure kite coward game. Well if we had enough time then we could catch all of your remains and sink, but we hadn't. Reason why i post it here is that fights like that is great ilustration of game transforming into wrong mechanic expluatation, instead of health fun gameplay. Just look at this: no damage from all of your top boats, except perhaps Colonia. To much running. And those high damage frigates was, probably, mastshooters =\ Our heavys was demasted, its reason why they have not so big damage, but yours wasn't. Where numbers? Except perhaps Colonia? Sorry but it looks like you were the only one who made more damage;) And thanks for smashing me into pieces at the end Reki:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PowderMonkey Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 This topic has devolved into a argument, and for the sake of realism and historical accuracy demasting will always be here and Reki, you have to understand that this is a SIMULATOR NAVAL COMBAT GAME, demasts were common, crew giveing up fighting was a thing, this is not Potbs 2 and if you want it to be that way so be it, go create another game to suit your taste, masts are weakness like the back of a tank people will blow off your track and hit you in the but cause its historically accurate and happened. You seem to be complaining about anything else except the English style of war (primarily nelsons) roll up alongside and fire as much as possible. So admiral nelson i wish you luck on the open world please remember that people who have open minds and tactics will win against tunnel vision opponents. (most of the time) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, I do think it a good topic on whether or not the mechanic is balanced. Again, throw out how people feel about it. I just came out of a match. We demasted a victory. Easy as pie. Two constitution and two surprise. We just shot heavy and they came down in 5 minutes or less. And there was ZERO doubt that we wouldn't be successful. The SOL captain on the other side even announced in chat "I called it" after the first mast went down. Meaning he too knew it was a foregone conclusion. When everyone knows it is the singlular path to victory, then one must ask: is the mechanic is balanced? I could care less it is used as a tactic (in fact, I just used it). But as alpha testers, we all need to step back and as the bigger picture question. Not bicker about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rramsha Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The problem is that aiming for masts is much easier than real life especially at range, so hitting masts is easy with a full broadside. now Im not saying that being demasting should not happen but something must be looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 lol, there you are...Hey, you're supposed to be in the match, demasted, fighting those 2 snow. I guess this means you're unconcerned with their light guns fighting at range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rramsha Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Just waiting for the Timer to run out This will be a hard mechanic to balance - lots of flak both sides Now the question is did ships fire broadsides only aiming at each others masts at a distance in real Life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PowderMonkey Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Sadly this is a game and you cant force behavior on players. and due to accuracy of the cannons you can pretty much hit the masts, back then the only reliable way to hit masts was to close in to nelsons tactic range (right beside the ship) a fix could be adding a extremely high bounce to cylindrical surfaces so from range you couldn't take down masts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 it is less about forcing behaviors... fix the mechanic. Masts are supposed to be round, right? Shouldn't many of these deflect off due to the angle (maybe 4.0 will address this)? And why so many RIGHT at the base where it is strongest? Probably many little tweeks that can curb the frequency of full demast. Like deflect. Like giving the masts an armour penetration rating similar to rates, where at range lighter guns don't pen the mast (this will also simulate, as you indicated with the Brits, more demasting at close range). Give the first half of the mast double, triple quadruple HP (whatever the right number is). Having the top half of the mast less HP. There are likely many more things behind the scenes that developers can tweek that I simply have no knowledge of.. No need to change player behavior. Address the root, which is the mechanic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eXnihilo Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 In my defense, I lost connection for a big portion of that game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rramsha Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 it is less about forcing behaviors... fix the mechanic. Masts are supposed to be round, right? Shouldn't many of these deflect off due to the angle (maybe 4.0 will address this)? And why so many RIGHT at the base where it is strongest? Probably many little tweeks that can curb the frequency of full demast. Like deflect. Like giving the masts an armour penetration rating similar to rates, where at range lighter guns don't pen the mast (this will also simulate, as you indicated with the Brits, more demasting at close range). Give the first half of the mast double, triple quadruple HP (whatever the right number is). Having the top half of the mast less HP. There are likely many more things behind the scenes that developers can tweek that I simply have no knowledge of.. No need to change player behavior. Address the root, which is the mechanic. This would be an idea, as an example if a small ship sat at range and shot broadside after broadside it should eventuallyt be able to knock down a mast but not in brief 3-5 minutes. I guess I dont have much of a problem with a Mast breaking from fire comming at very close range as there are risks when close to other ships. I think the problem most people have is playing a game of "MAST SNIPER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 well we just have a draw trafalgar around 20 vs 20 where all our rate ships except one was demasted. We was hard winning on start, then they decide to kite us one hour, at the and thanks to map resizing we get them and sunk all remain rate ships. frigates just run away again so we got draw. few our mates spend all 3 reps on sails to get 60-80% sails and "turtling" leeward like forever. One victory get only 9 k damage just saailing behinde. I just can call it gay-style play. Best regards to opponent team. They use that "tactic" fine and got theyr hardworked draw, when all our heavys stay floating. Was there yesterday. An ugly match. Thing is that our whole team got chased by the enemy and you had wind advantage. We could have stopped, but that would have been a smashing defeat, having 20 ships on our ass going with the wind. Exnilio´s Santisima was eaten up within 2 minutes facing the power of your team. A nice example what would happen if we stop. To expect us to align near your Santisima and being crippled by your team was not happening. So we sailed on, hoping that the wind will turn. And your team split at a point and we could defeat the frigs going without cover etc…of course your larger ships were without sails by then. I agree with you Reki, demasting is a problem for larger ships nowadays. There are many arguments for and against game mechanisms allowing ships to be demasting quickly (realism yes/no, exploiting tactics yes/no), there are many posts about this topic. Personally, I don’t like to use anything larger than a Bellona anymore, for that reason. So "dont hate the player, hate the game" (ofc we love Naval Action) Don´t blame our team, we did what we could to survive. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marecek05 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 As I said... Demasting is a valid tactic, should stay in game and should be prevalent. In open world I believe demasting will be more interesting, since the fights wont be to the death as now. However I agree that it could be done fairer. Armor value of masts should differ between lineships and frigates. Top sections of masts should be vulnerable even at a long ranges (provided the shot hits). In the meantime some possible option would be to decrease the size of the battlefield, or to make shrinking exponentially faster with the passing time. As a matter of point however, I strongly refuse the notion to remove the issue that was prevalent and the ships of that period faced quite often, for the abstract idea of "more fun". That way we get call of duty and this game has a potential to be much more. In open world I would want masts breaking from stress of the wind, sails tearing, etc... This game should try to embrace "Dark souls kind of fun" not call of duty's.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlock Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Wait a minute? Since when is kiting not a valid tactic? I thought the idea was to do as much damage to your ship and take as little damage to mine? I imagine when we have to pay for damage and repairs in open world, you won't see much "Go straight at 'em" battles in this game. Further more, if I'm in a smaller ship, the smart thing to do is to never allow you to bring your broadside to bear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meraun Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Wait a minute? Since when is kiting not a valid tactic? I thought the idea was to do as much damage to your ship and take as little damage to mine? I imagine when we have to pay for damage and repairs in open world, you won't see much "Go straight at 'em" battles in this game. Further more, if I'm in a smaller ship, the smart thing to do is to never allow you to bring your broadside to bear. of course Kiting is the way to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marecek05 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 of course Kiting is the way to go Depends....for slightly outnumbered fleet, sure. However if you are in a cutter and lynx and the enemy has 2 rates 3 frigs and couple of lighter ships, running around the circle is just bad manners.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabo Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Last night we had a storm game with 30 ships and the enemy had one santisima. As the santisima came closer with the rest of her fleet behind her, we couldnt lay accurate shots to the hulls due to the storm. At this point we all started shooting her sails and masts which eventually demasted her. By the time I was engaging with other ships and sank, the santisima was left far away from the battle and the guy just logged off. In my opinion demasting should be a lot harder at long rangers. People don't really use chains as much as ball for demasting, which shows how easy and effective it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatpukk Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Last night we had a storm game with 30 ships and the enemy had one santisima. As the santisima came closer with the rest of her fleet behind her, we couldnt lay accurate shots to the hulls due to the storm. At this point we all started shooting her sails and masts which eventually demasted her. By the time I was engaging with other ships and sank, the santisima was left far away from the battle and the guy just logged off. In my opinion demasting should be a lot harder at long rangers. People don't really use chains as much as ball for demasting, which shows how easy and effective it is. Chain wasnt really used that much for demasting in real life either. chain/bar was just a good way to kill crew and disable the rigging without damaging the ship that much. good old round shot was preferred when fighting an equal advessary. and it was fired at the rigging to cut masts and break blocks and yards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greybuscat Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 mast snipping was in real life pure lottery. Fact, that we have here constitution, which is able to solo demast 1-st rate to zero its nonsence. like 3 jackpots row. And if one constitution is able to do this, then group of ships will demast 1-st rate for 1-2 broadside unload. Then they going windward and start killing. To avoid this second one group must do same thing - demasting. At the end both group should do this and its WRONG, since demasting goes to permanent game element. I already had fights with that, when all ships from both sides shooting masts. I wonder why, because it isn't OP? This might matter more if we weren't in the part of development we we're supposed to try and ruin the balance of the game, or break aspects of the engine. I highly, HIGHLY doubt we'll be talking about a "demasting meta" when the finished game is out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rramsha Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The problem is that cannons are too accurate, if you can get one ranging shot into the area of the masts at range then the full broadside will land in the same spot. I beleive that cannons should have a greater shot dispersion at range leading to far fewer mast shots landing on target at range. I believe there should be a greater loss of accuracy at the outer limit of our cannon range and not the current unity of accuracy that lies within the entire range of the current cannon shot ballistics. The above decreased reduction in distance dispersion of cannon, combined with a slight increase of mast armor when getting hit at range, would allow for masts to still fall at range with lots of shots but as the range decreases would also allow masts to fall with greater probobility as combat ranges decrease which would be more in line with combat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromey Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I was the ship in the OP description that lost 3 masts after 5 minutes of fire from 3 ships. I was very pissed at the time but from reading this I can agree that de-masting was a way to keep ships honest. Do we want ultra realism or do we want ships charging head long into one another all the time? Kinda turns the game into more a chess like affair then a pell mell of double broad sides.. unless of course you totally got the weather gauge. As for reducing accuracy, I think we should keep it as is because reducing accuracy of solid shot would make it harder to hit the hulls of ships and easier to just spam away at the masts and sails up above. Perhaps reducing damage overall would make the game more fun? The lead ships of the British Fleet in Trafalgar were apparently under fire for about 30 minutes (due to light winds) before they could fire back according to sources yet the van ships didn't even lose the most men in the battle. Nor were their masts crippled after taking such fire and reached their intended targets http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/interactive/animations/trafalgar/index_embed.shtml ps. Current from what I've seen repairs to masts/sails only replace missing section of masts and sails but doesnt repair damaged masts. I think the repairs should also repair masts since Im spend having to wait for the enemy to break my 2nd mast before I can repair because if I spent my repair on just the 1st mast (1 mast gone penalize u to only 60% sails) then the next volleys to my mast will break the 2nd mast and I will go stright back to only 50% speed. Its like I have to wait for 2 masts to be broken before I can safely bother to start repairs! By then Im almost out of the fight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromey Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 just had a fight 1 vic /2 belona vs 2 vics and a buncha frigates for each side. demasted 1 vic and partially demasted other ones and won battle. Great way to score damage when a bunch of ships cluster up then send canons thru all their sails and masts. Repairs spend on sails and masts= quickly sunk ship in close combat. Unless team has a ton of discipline (most frigate capt are new and dont care) then they loose cohesion and formation gets picked apart as heavy guns cant keep up with their smaller cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabo Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Yesterday i managed to demast a brig with my snow in 6 broadsides, close range. 7 hits to the mast in total. This is info for science, don't know if it's helpful : ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebsif Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 ^Doesnt sound like its worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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