Ship speeds, an adjustment suggestion

[Sven Silberbart]

15kn chasing another 15kn ship (and that is the result of this static 15kn cap). Makes absolutely no sense to me. Ships need to have different speeds to bring a result. Escape or Battle. Light ships are useless atm. Cheaper isn't a valid argument to me. Cant understand why someone want to make some ship types useless. Maybe they want to see all sailing slow SOLs or something. Cant believe it. Maybe they are looking through PB Player Only Glasses.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Sven Silberbart

[maturin]

Quote

A suprise without speedcap will be lost 5 times more or so than that cheap reno

Before the speedmod madness began only an utter incompetent could get ganked in a Surprise.

[Hodo]

9 minutes ago, maturin said:

Before the speedmod madness began only an utter incompetent could get ganked in a Surprise.

Those of us who were still playing, like you and I, remember the Surprise gank fleets of the pre-wipe.

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

15kn chasing another 15kn ship (and that is the result of this static 15kn cap). Makes absolutely no sense to me. Ships need to have different speeds to bring a result. Escape or Battle. Light ships are useless atm. Cheaper isn't a valid argument to me. Cant understand why someone want to make some ship types useless. Maybe they want to see all sailing slow SOLs or something. Cant believe it. Maybe they are looking through PB Player Only Glasses.

You will never catch a well captained 15 knot surprise with a 15 knot Connie or Endymion or trinc. The acceleration values and sailing profiles just won't support it. The only thing that the extra speed gives them is a longer engagement window. The light ships still sail circles around them. I use a regular frigate and I have no trouble outsailing fast large ships, because my maneuverability trumps their speed every time. Also, if I lose my frigate, I'm out 75k, if they lose a Connie... well that's worth 7 or 8 of me. I think you gankers need to learn how to use small ships properly. All I see here is a lot of whining about how it's harder to get away with being a ganker. That's  good thing in my book. Less ganking more pvp.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Malachy

[Sven Silberbart]

7 hours ago, Malachy said:

You will never catch a well captained 15 knot surprise with a 15 knot Connie or Endymion or trinc. The acceleration values and sailing profiles just won't support it.

Exactly. The same reverse. That's what i said. But that is lowering the pvp because nobody is able to catch the other. Static 15kn limit is senseless!

[Sven Silberbart]

15kn renno hunted by 15kn frigate. Let's say because of an mistake the renno has beeb tagged. Renno looses fight because of it is in big disadvantage. Renno player sails frigate next time because he realise..  his renno hasn't any advantage anymore. Speed ships has been killed by 15kn cap. And I don't want to see NA with useless shiptypes. EVERY ships should have its role.

[Liq]

2 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

15kn renno hunted by 15kn frigate. Let's say because of an mistake the renno has beeb tagged. Renno looses fight because of it is in big disadvantage. Renno player sails frigate next time because he realise..  his renno hasn't any advantage anymore. Speed ships has been killed by 15kn cap. And I don't want to see NA with useless shiptypes. EVERY ships should have its role.

You can still make a frigates life really bad when in a reno. And dont forget, for a frigate to reach 15 knots you need crappy wood eg. Cedar / cedar and a lot of speed mods while a reno can be teak - white oak and still reach the 15 knots with ease

In fact yesterday I had 2 frigates and 1 pirate frigate running away from a 1v1, while I was in a reno

[Fargo]

12 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

You can still make a frigates life really bad when in a reno. And dont forget, for a frigate to reach 15 knots you need crappy wood eg. Cedar / cedar and a lot of speed mods while a reno can be teak - white oak and still reach the 15 knots with ease

In fact yesterday I had 2 frigates and 1 pirate frigate running away from a 1v1, while I was in a reno

Ofcourse you can beat it in a reno, but thats unimportant. You can beat a frigate in a snow with enough skill difference, but this has no meaning for ship balancing. The point is that you can do it in a surprise even better, while it does nothing worse.

Imagine you should duel an equally skilled player, why should you currently choose the reno over a surprise? Even a teak/wo reno has weaker armour than a teak/bermuda surprise, the surprise is faster over the whole sailing profile, has +6(4) guns per broadside and more chasers. Your only advantage is that you can pick 1-2 more non speed upgrades. The reno also isnt ment to be as powerful as the surprise, its not the same BR. 

[Malachy]

6 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Exactly. The same reverse. That's what i said. But that is lowering the pvp because nobody is able to catch the other. Static 15kn limit is senseless!

What is decreasing pvp is 1 durability ships and extremely limited dock space. I know I used to go out again and again if I got sunk, now if I lose my ship, it's 2 days of pve grind to get another one built and upgraded. I've always sailed frigates and connies, a draw doesn't bother me at all and I'm used to little shit ships getting away. That has not changed much except for the fact that I have a couple shots at them now and might be able to get them slowed up enough to catch 30 percent of the time.

[Malachy]

16 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Ofcourse you can beat it in a reno, but thats unimportant. You can beat a frigate in a snow with enough skill difference, but this has no meaning for ship balancing. The point is that you can do it in a surprise even better, while it does nothing worse.

Imagine you should duel an equally skilled player, why should you currently choose the reno over a surprise? Even a teak/wo reno has weaker armour than a teak/bermuda surprise, the surprise is faster over the whole sailing profile, has +6(4) guns per broadside and more chasers. Your only advantage is that you can pick 1-2 more non speed upgrades. The reno also isnt ment to be as powerful as the surprise, its not the same BR. 

You can't beat a frigate in a snow. I took out a rat Endymion and 2 snows with my frigate the other day. 

[Hodo]

25 minutes ago, Malachy said:

What is decreasing pvp is 1 durability ships and extremely limited dock space. I know I used to go out again and again if I got sunk, now if I lose my ship, it's 2 days of pve grind to get another one built and upgraded. I've always sailed frigates and connies, a draw doesn't bother me at all and I'm used to little shit ships getting away. That has not changed much except for the fact that I have a couple shots at them now and might be able to get them slowed up enough to catch 30 percent of the time.

This is because you want to sail these big expensive ships.  Instead of less expensive easier to replace ships.  Or you fail to have replacement ships available.  This is not on game design this is on you. 

11 minutes ago, Malachy said:

You can't beat a frigate in a snow. I took out a rat Endymion and 2 snows with my frigate the other day. 

He said, "IF the skill difference is high enough."  But not on topic.

[Liq]

52 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Ofcourse you can beat it in a reno, but thats unimportant. You can beat a frigate in a snow with enough skill difference, but this has no meaning for ship balancing. The point is that you can do it in a surprise even better, while it does nothing worse.

Again, Surprise's base speed is significantly lower compared to the reno, e.g. requires more speed mods (or a lighter wood type) in order to reach the speed

In general, if you see a Frigate is not as fast as you, that's usually a good indicator that he's not set up for full speed / light wood but rather tanky - As you've pointed out, Reno's BR is lower, and small fish are supposed to run from big fish, if they know they're outmatched

If the Frigate is going 15 knots aswell, go give it a try as you know he can't be that tanky after all

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

This is because you want to sail these big expensive ships.  Instead of less expensive easier to replace ships.  Or you fail to have replacement ships available.  This is not on game design this is on you. 

He said, "IF the skill difference is high enough."  But not on topic.

Has nothing to do with ship costs. It's obtaining mods. Ship costs are probably the smallest pvp expense. Cannons and mods far outvalue the ship itself. Even if you stocked up on ships, you could very easily lose several in a row. Replacement time is the same regardless whether you have them on hand or not.

 

And its plenty on topic. You can't have it both ways. As to the snow, it would have to be a midshipman in an undercrewed frigate vs a top pvper. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Malachy

[Hodo]

22 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Has nothing to do with ship costs. It's obtaining mods. Ship costs are probably the smallest pvp expense. Cannons and mods far outvalue the ship itself. Even if you stocked up on ships, you could very easily lose several in a row. Replacement time is the same regardless whether you have them on hand or not.

 

And its plenty on topic. You can't have it both ways.

Now I think you are just arguing to argue.  

Ship costs is not the subject of this thread, speeds is.  

Not discussing skill difference or anything like that.

[Fargo]

1 hour ago, Liquicity said:

Again, Surprise's base speed is significantly lower compared to the reno, e.g. requires more speed mods (or a lighter wood type) in order to reach the speed

In general, if you see a Frigate is not as fast as you, that's usually a good indicator that he's not set up for full speed / light wood but rather tanky - As you've pointed out, Reno's BR is lower, and small fish are supposed to run from big fish, if they know they're outmatched

If the Frigate is going 15 knots aswell, go give it a try as you know he can't be that tanky after all

Again, the higher base speed of the reno cant compensate its weaknesses. And if it could, it still would be a weird system. Why not make the reno slower and tankier by default then?! You wont find arguments in favour of a speedcap.

Instead of a speedcap you could give all cappable ships equal base speed, and adjust their hull strenght according to actual balancing. It would be exactly the same situation, but nobody would get to a weird idea like this.

Strenght of a Surprise and a Reno might fit their BR, but we dont get variation that way. Lower BR ships need specific strenghts to give them a use. Like ships of different classes. You use 5th rates over 4th rates for speed and turnrate. It needs to be the same within a class. When all 4th rates only differ in hull strenght, there would be simply one best ship.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Fargo

[Liq]

I'm not trying to defend speed hardcaps lol

Just saying, for a frigate to reach 15 knots you will have to sacrifice a lot

I'm all for percentage caps

[Hodo]

8 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I'm not trying to defend speed hardcaps lol

Just saying, for a frigate to reach 15 knots you will have to sacrifice a lot

I'm all for percentage caps

I understood what you were trying to say.  

Heavier slower base ship, has to give up something to match the faster designs.  BUT with that said, some of those ships are still tougher than any of the baseline fast ships.   

This is kind of the counter many people are coming up with.

[Fargo]

12 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I'm not trying to defend speed hardcaps lol

Just saying, for a frigate to reach 15 knots you will have to sacrifice a lot

I'm all for percentage caps

The example you quoted was just bad and wrong. Reno still has an advantage in turn rate. There is a reason to sail a reno over a frig, but compared with stronger and similar turning ships, like surprise in this case, there isnt. Sure as a low budged hunter without need for upgrades, but thats not balancing. No ship should have a role like this.

[Liq]

How is it wrong to say that if you want a 15 knot frigate you can't have white oak or anything similar, and pretty much need all of your perm mod slots and even some regular ones to be +speed?

[Fargo]

12 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

How is it wrong to say that if you want a 15 knot frigate you can't have white oak or anything similar, and pretty much need all of your perm mod slots and even some regular ones to be +speed?

I said the post that you quoted is wrong, not your post.

You were only off topic:P

Edited July 7, 2017 by Fargo

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Now I think you are just arguing to argue.  

Ship costs is not the subject of this thread, speeds is.  

Not discussing skill difference or anything like that.

If you aren't, you should be. All of that comes into play when you begin to discuss a core component like speed. I brought forward a legitimate counter argument, can't help it you don't like it.

[Hodo]

15 minutes ago, Malachy said:

If you aren't, you should be. All of that comes into play when you begin to discuss a core component like speed. I brought forward a legitimate counter argument, can't help it you don't like it.

Not sure what counter argument you brought to the table that had to do with speed adjustments in this thread?  

You brought up a different topic about costs of ships, and how 1 dura is affecting PVP in your opinion.   The only thing you have contributed to the whole topic has been the fact that 2 ships of 15kn will never catch each other.  

[Tenet]

I would like to test the 10% suggestion, and to give the Endymion a 0.5 kn nerf to base speed.

The discussions of PvP merits of each ship are a distraction (and would complicate this unnecessarily once you include Turn-Duels vs. Group Fights). 

[Malachy]

57 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Not sure what counter argument you brought to the table that had to do with speed adjustments in this thread?  

You brought up a different topic about costs of ships, and how 1 dura is affecting PVP in your opinion.   The only thing you have contributed to the whole topic has been the fact that 2 ships of 15kn will never catch each other.  

Read my original replies. All of that comes into bearing though. You say speed is the only thing that sets smaller ships apart, I say not so. Learn how to use them, speed is only one aspect, not the end all. When you consider speed you need to also consider cost, acceleration, deceleration, maneuverability, armament, sailing profiles, and armor. For Each And Every ship affected. You can't just consider speed on its own. 

 

You want to bring back the days when a surprise could attack any larger ship with impunity. I don't want to ever see that again.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Malachy

[Guest]

Ive thought about this very carefully for the last few days and I feel that it is wrong to say everyone will use the best 15knt ship and nothing else. 

Sailing profile matters. Trader Brigs outrun my 15knt privateer downwind as long as they are unloaded. 

But you know what? Doesnt stop me from killing them, there is a lot of strategy and depth right now to OW positioning and combat. 

I tagged a tbrig yesterday and he escaped downwind but by the time he escaped the OW wind turned directly to the coastline so he had no where to run when I retagged him and finished him. 

The last thing he said when he escaped the first time was 'haha noob'. 

Still got him like many others by understanding his sailing profile and mine and using the wind to my advantage. 

15knt surprise is better than a 15knt 4th rate because it has an excellent upwind sailing profile. 

Im becoming more and more okay with the cap as long as modules for speed are no longer limited to pve drops. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Guest