Minor missions a nightmare for CSA after Shiloh?

[ajffighter86]

I could really use some tips for Winchester and Cross Keys after Shiloh as the Confederates. I'm almost to the point where I wonder if it would be better to just skip those missions and run headstrong into Gaines Mill, yet I know how important those career points are. (though it doesn't matter much if you can't win them)

Winchester:

I fitted a nearly 400 man strong sharpshooter unit with whitworth rifles and it seems to be reasonably effective against the 450 man artillery units (they can't return fire at what they can't see from over 400 yards) but it seems there's no way I can approach the town of Winchester to capture the obj without losing hundreds of men at a time to grapeshot when I try to send in my stronger units. I tried sending some cav units around to flank my way into the town, it looked like it might work, and then they were promptly shredded by 3 skirmisher units of 200 or so men hiding in the town. The horses forgot how to follow orders and all my attempts to charge the skirmishers were met with my cav units riding back and forth being shot at. On top of that the yanks have 2500+ men in their brigades to make sure any success at getting into the town is short lived.

I'm playing on normal difficulty and up til Shiloh things are almost too easy and then the AI goes into prison gang rape mode.

I keep getting to these points where I have to restart and try to take better care of my men. Maybe hire a few more veterans this time around so my units are better skilled by this point, but in every case, once I'm past Shiloh, I'm stuck.

Edited February 17, 2017 by ajffighter86

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

1st Winchester you want to ignore the forest on the top of the town and use a few brigades to pin them down in the forest while the rest of your forces swing around the union left (confederate right) and enter the town from the south.  Try to ignore the forest to the north, and only take 1 atry battery the rest infantry.  Make a long flanking movement along the left edge of the map to start and then advance your entire force on a north-south axis, the left of your line head into the forest and the right of the line swinging into the town.  Hopefully you can win this batlte on normal with fewer than 2500 casualties max. 

 

Cross Keys take your best brigade and flank the union right along the top of the map, sometimes you can even bait them into your lines in the far north and allow the 3 brigades you have stationed to hold the top VP to enfilade.   2 brigades in front 1 brigade behind in the clump of trees defendng the north VP.  The south VP 2 brigades in front and 1 behind in the middle and behind them.  2 arty batteries should be useful here, 24lb howitzers especially chew up the bluecoats when they dither in the river bank.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Don't Escrow Taxes
left/right oops

[Guest]

Winchester - no need to tackle the main army.. just move the bulk of your army around it and enter Winchester from the SW..

 

[Squadron HQ]

Winchester is easy to win with <500 casualties in very short period. Force march your forces to the forest just north of the town, engage the union troops there, then swing some brigades into the town and capture the objective, hugging the right hand side border of the map. The battle will end after the 20m objective timer has counted down. I always win this with v. low casualties.

Cross Keys on the other hand I don't understand. I can beat Gettysburg or Chancellorsville with fewer casualties than CK. The Union will have more men and more Brigades and they simply throw them at you until you are destroyed or they are. It's mega dumb.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Squadron HQ

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

4 minutes ago, Squadron HQ said:

Winchester is easy to win with <500 casualties in very short period. Force march your forces to the forest just north of the town, engage the union troops there, then swing some brigades into the town and capture the objective, hugging the right hand side border of the map. The battle will end after the 20m objective timer has counted down. I always win this with v. low casualties.

 VERY interesting will try this it's totally different from what I do 

[Squadron HQ]

1 minute ago, Don't Escrow Taxes said:

 VERY interesting will try this it's totally different from what I do 

Give it a shot. I usually put 3 brigades across the road northeast of the town. They duke it out with a big union brigade there but I fall them back out of range and union doesn't pursue. At first there might be a battery there but I rush it w/ force march and volley it until it retreats.

That line established, union won't attack it. Then you just go behind that line and into the town. 

[James Cornelius]

What difficulty are you gentlemen using? Playing on Brigadier General, while I find those battles costly, they were by no means impossible. In Winchester I did exactly what has been described - get two or three brigades into the woods north and north west of the town while another brigade or two comes down around my left flank to get into the town and behind the union troops fighting my forces in the woods.

 

At Cross Keys, (if I remember the battle right) I found very little pressure on my southern flank, with far more on the northern flank. Two well placed artillery batteries and better troops in the northern wooded area above the cross held, with a brigade further to the rear at my extreme northern flank available to move our and flank union troops that managed to push me back.

 

When I have a chance later I'll check out my casualties for each battle.

[GrinningD]

Even on Legendary you don't really need those units pinning the Union down from the woods. Move the whole force into the town from the south; you will have town cover instead of trees and all the union forces will have to come at you across open ground. 

It's nice to start with a cavalry unit or two as well to run down those skirmishers south of the woods in the center of your deployment zone.

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by GrinningD

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

13 minutes ago, GrinningD said:

Even on Legendary you don't really need those units pinning the Union down from the woods. Move the whole force into the town from the south; you will have town cover instead of trees and all the union forces will have to come at you across open ground. 

 

yeah i dont know why that never occurred to me either. 

[Squadron HQ]

That was the first thing I did on my 1st ever playthrough of 1st Winchester but the union actually moved to intercept me, so from then on I took my approach.

[A. P. Hill]

In Winchester, it should be noted that when playing the CSA, the yanks will try to sneak two cavalry outfits behind your lines and try to steal your supplies.

What you need to do is send a brigade to the upper right corner and wait for them there.  A good sized unit will either disintegrate the enemy or cause him to surrender.  The second cavalry unit comes in near the left bottom where the road from town goes off the map and there is that little bit of wood there, send your second brigade to that wood as soon as you start, the same outcome should happen as the one in the upper right.

It's this brigade that I send down to the bottom of the map and then across and into the town from the bottom.  And all it takes is one brigade to be there contesting the town for a win or a draw.

 

[Squadron HQ]

1 hour ago, A. P. Hill said:

In Winchester, it should be noted that when playing the CSA, the yanks will try to sneak two cavalry outfits behind your lines and try to steal your supplies.

What you need to do is send a brigade to the upper right corner and wait for them there.  A good sized unit will either disintegrate the enemy or cause him to surrender.  The second cavalry unit comes in near the left bottom where the road from town goes off the map and there is that little bit of wood there, send your second brigade to that wood as soon as you start, the same outcome should happen as the one in the upper right.

It's this brigade that I send down to the bottom of the map and then across and into the town from the bottom.  And all it takes is one brigade to be there contesting the town for a win or a draw.

 

Don't take supplies. You don't need them for 1st Winchester.

[Zwerty99]

I find cross keys and port republic the most frustrating out of this set (though they pale in comparison to ambush scenarios). With port republic I don't engage the hill but instead use reinforcements to go to the upper right corner where the USA troops come. They will be slaughrered and their arty captured for less than one thousand casualties. Then I move down towards the vp taking the hill, which should be lightly defended.

[Squadron HQ]

1 minute ago, Zwerty99 said:

I find cross keys and port republic the most frustrating out of this set (though they pale in comparison to ambush scenarios). With port republic I don't engage the hill but instead use reinforcements to go to the upper right corner where the USA troops come. They will be slaughrered and their arty captured for less than one thousand casualties. Then I move down towards the vp taking the hill, which should be lightly defended.

I usually find Port Republic really easy - that's a novel approach that would let you capture loads of cannons though, I should try that next time.

[Zwerty99]

36 minutes ago, Squadron HQ said:

I usually find Port Republic really easy - that's a novel approach that would let you capture loads of cannons though, I should try that next time.

Yeah, I misspoke. I found it frustrating until I used this strategy   Before I just got frustrated about massive union brigades entrenched in the south... this strategy bypasses them almost entirely. 

[Hitorishizuka]

10 hours ago, ajffighter86 said:

I could really use some tips for Winchester and Cross Keys after Shiloh as the Confederates. I'm almost to the point where I wonder if it would be better to just skip those missions and run headstrong into Gaines Mill, yet I know how important those career points are. (though it doesn't matter much if you can't win them)

1st Winchester: Send your biggest brigades into the forest directly north of the town and start trading fire. Then send cavalry and detached skirmishers into the town from the east and use them to easily kill the enemy skirmishers, artillery, capture supplies, and flank the defending brigades. Then just push into town and eventually hold a N-S line using the town edge.

---

Cross Keys: 2 big brigades on top of the northern VP. Get the spacing right so the edge of their attack range will be shooting at the gap right where the river is. 1 big brigade on the northern side of the south forest, they'll come peek out periodically to add flanking fire when the Union brigades start fanning around the northern VP or rotate down to support south as needed. 1 brigade watching the southern side of the south forest, they'll eventually need to hold off a couple brigades on their own for at least a little while. 3 artillery behind the northern VP, 1 artillery on the northern side of the south VP. Cavalry and detached skirmishers should find some play on the far south and north working around to kill the enemy artillery and skirmishers. Dedicated skirmishers north of the north VP, there's a position an enemy brigade usually takes sitting out in the open to shoot at defenders on the north that you can make them pay for. Keep the general and the supply truck at the north most of the time.

---

Port Republic: Just push in with brigades fast and hard and take the VP. Send cavalry SE to kill the skirmishers there. One brigade push east to keep pursuing the brigade you had to push off. One brigade push SW to kill the artillery and contest against the enemy infantry and skirmisher. Get your reinforcements down to the VP and you can easily hold the water crossing against the infantry and murder them while your cavalry eventually circles around and kills the artillery from behind.

---

In general don't be afraid to take at least some casualties in the name of getting kills and experience on your troops. It's equally important to get experienced troops and capture guns as it is to not have them die needlessly.

 

[Jamesk2]

Lol at 1st Winchester you don't need to fight any units besides Union skirmishers at all. Just move all your brigade to the down right corner of the starting box, chase/kill the skirmisher unit that spawn opposite you, then move to the right edge of the map and straight south into the town. Almost 0 casualty.

Cross Keys: I believe that defending the 2 objectives themselves is a mistake. Why? Because your north VP will be outnumbered hard without much space to deploy reinforcement, and the Unions will have really good positions to place their artillery or to fall back. Also fighting Port Republic and 1st Winchester helps - in total removing 10% of the Union forces.

The better line to defend is cross the river, in the further side of the U-shaped woods. Have a brigade on the woods closest to the north edge of the map (like a - over the U), another brigade in the gap between the two woods. The northernmost point of the U will be the hardest hit, the rest of the U can hold well.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Jamesk2

[Jamesk2]

*This one is a duplicated post because of my mistake*

Edited February 18, 2017 by Jamesk2
Duplicated post

[Aetius]

I can only add to the 1st Winchester pile. I prefer to go around the east edge of the map and use cavalry, as you can quickly overrun the skirmishers and one or two artillery units in the Union rear. Also don't forget to capture the supplies that enter from the east side of the town about halfway through the battle. 1st Winchester is all about low casualties and hopefully collecting artillery / sniper loot.

Cross Keys is difficult because it requires a very precise configuration - your defensive brigades in the center woods MUST stay well back in such a way that the Union troops are forced to fight from the river, and they need your best artillery support. You should also set up on both flanks hammer any brigades that try to flank the center woods. Getting skirmishers / cavalry across the river behind the Union lines will help reduce the pressure on the center and collect a lot of artillery loot. Once you figure out how that works, you can do this:

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Aetius

[Nuvag]

I actually like this scenario as the union can be slaughtered pretty easily. Aetius video shows how to do it.

On my last run on hard difficulty i positioned one brigade in the top nort woods in a forward position, supported by one brigrade in the corn field, this reduced union troop concentration on the center. I lost only 3200 of my 14k troops and had no cavalry.

Moving one or two skirmishers behind enemy lines will distract them further and you most probably will be able to kill some arty.

[Hitorishizuka]

10 hours ago, Jamesk2 said:

Lol at 1st Winchester you don't need to fight any units besides Union skirmishers at all. Just move all your brigade to the down right corner of the starting box, chase/kill the skirmisher unit that spawn opposite you, then move to the right edge of the map and straight south into the town. Almost 0 casualty.

Winning battles without fighting is not actually desirable. Don't forget that the AI levels up its units for free as the campaign progresses, you must take every effort to do the same. The more high 2 and even 3 star units you can bring to the table by the time you get to the later Grand Battles the better.

Aetius's video on Cross Keys is almost exactly what I describe. Exact force comp varies (I prefer a little more artillery) but the spacing he shows off with enemy units stuck in the river is exactly what you want.

[Squadron HQ]

Edit: just played the Shenandoah campaign on my new Mj-General playthrough. My old one had bad career choices.

Port Republic: whoever suggested trapping the union reinforcements against the spawn, that was so cheesy but so good. They were just murdered. Then I could almost walk into the VP. Even better way of fighting the scenario than I am used to.

CK: got a favourable conclusion that I'm happy with, for the firs time ever. I recovered the costs of the battle because of my high politics and I got two brigades up to 2* from that battle alone. Aetius' video was especially helpful (I got a slightly better % but on a lower difficulty. ).  For some reason I was putting my infantry brigades at the head of the forest, rather than in the centre as you guys suggested. It makes a HUGE difference! Especially on this game I had a Fayetteville brigade on the flank that racked up 1000~ kills, so that helped a lot.

On the other hand, what people said here about Winchester didn't help at all. By not making any kind of demonstration the Union just through 5000 troops at me once I was in the town and I lost men without any serious business fighting. Which I consider a waste - this battle can be won without fighting and it doesn't have a big reward so I consider it as free reputation & money, rather than free exp. Next time I will use my own personal strategy for Winchester as I find that demonstrating against them draws their attention totally from the town. 

So I rate the suggestions by the thread 2/3! Thanks guys!

Edited February 19, 2017 by Squadron HQ

[Jamesk2]

10 hours ago, Hitorishizuka said:

Winning battles without fighting is not actually desirable. Don't forget that the AI levels up its units for free as the campaign progresses, you must take every effort to do the same. The more high 2 and even 3 star units you can bring to the table by the time you get to the later Grand Battles the better.

There are battles to farm for kills and experience like Ambush Convoy and Port Republic, and there are battle that are just best left aside. You're getting 3 to 1 K/D ratio on Winchester in what I assume Normal, right? I assume it should be about the worst, or closest to worst of all battles in your campaigns - barely even with Cross Keys. Get to Port Republic and you'll have 10:1 K/D easily, so why bother with such meager gains paid at high prices? 

[Hitorishizuka]

1 minute ago, Jamesk2 said:

There are battles to farm for kills and experience like Ambush Convoy and Port Republic, and there are battle that are just best left aside. You're getting 3 to 1 K/D ratio on Winchester in what I assume Normal, right? I assume it should be about the worst, or closest to worst of all battles in your campaigns - barely even with Cross Keys. Get to Port Republic and you'll have 10:1 K/D easily, so why bother with such meager gains paid at high prices? 

Because I have more manpower in reserve than I can ever use and taking casualties on regular brigades for the sake of capturing guns and getting them experience is almost literally the point. The only brigades that actually cost money to replace are cavalry and skirmishers, which should be shepherded. Getting infantry killed and capturing a better tier of guns to outfit other units with is basically effectively making money for free.

[Jamesk2]

5 minutes ago, Hitorishizuka said:

Because I have more manpower in reserve than I can ever use and taking casualties on regular brigades for the sake of capturing guns and getting them experience is almost literally the point. The only brigades that actually cost money to replace are cavalry and skirmishers, which should be shepherded. Getting infantry killed and capturing a better tier of guns to outfit other units with is basically effectively making money for free.

It's true... on Normal, but at that level of difficulty you're fighting the game scaling more than the battle itself anyway. And even if it's free money, free experience, it's still so small both in absolute number and relative quantity that unless you're obsessed with min-maxing opting-out does not change anything. You're trying to build a stronger army in a 3/1 battle and then use that army to fight a later battle that will most likely be 5/1 in your favor.