While we wait for Fredericksburg

[Koro]

So while we wait for Fredericksburg to be finalized and the patch to be ready, I've put together a small guide for the Union generals amongst us
Before jumping right in to it, I actually recommend you try it on your own - it was an incredible experience going in to the battle for the first time and not having a clue about the terrain, the enemy positions or numbers. You can then return to this guide after being demolished like every tester did on his first try - which was also quite a lot of fun. I'll reveal what I did wrong after the patch has been out for a while
If you cannot wait though, I fully understand and as such, here is a full Fredericksburg Guide

Fredericksburg guide 
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817532018

There will be no CSA guide :). If you feel like you suffered at the hands of the Union, this is your chance for payback and afterwards, I promise you, your moral will be sky high to continue for Chancellorsville.

[James Cornelius]

Fredericksburg has me wondering just if it truly will be possible to beat as the Union without horrific casualties. If you are locked in to Burnside's plan in any way, then I don't see a way to avoid it even if you do manage to seize Marye's Heights or the woods to the south. I can't help but wonder if a player might be better off to sit under the guns of Stafford Heights, incur few if any casualties, and simply take the defeat for not contesting the map. You lose the prestige points, but if your army is not damaged in any way, the reward would still allow one to strengthen further for Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.

[Koro]

4 minutes ago, James Cornelius said:

Fredericksburg has me wondering just if it truly will be possible to beat as the Union without horrific casualties. If you are locked in to Burnside's plan in any way, then I don't see a way to avoid it even if you do manage to seize Marye's Heights or the woods to the south. I can't help but wonder if a player might be better off to sit under the guns of Stafford Heights, incur few if any casualties, and simply take the defeat for not contesting the map. You lose the prestige points, but if your army is not damaged in any way, the reward would still allow one to strengthen further for Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.

You are pretty much free to do whatever you want. Do make sure to bring 4 corps though so you can deploy troops as you see fit. 4th corps only needs to be 1 brigade but 3 is required and then you'll be able to place your army entirely where you see fit. The reserves will participate right away in the phase for Marye's Heights.

 

[Koro]

Added link, lol, silly me.

[Koro]

Getting some insights in to the campaign:

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/fredericksburg/maps/fredericksburg-animated-map/

[James Cornelius]

1 hour ago, Koro said:

You are pretty much free to do whatever you want. Do make sure to bring 4 corps though so you can deploy troops as you see fit. 4th corps only needs to be 1 brigade but 3 is required and then you'll be able to place your army entirely where you see fit. The reserves will participate right away in the phase for Marye's Heights.

 

That might help, but perhaps not enough. I am of the belief that there are certain defensive positions you simply do not attack - Marye's Heights would be one. If you are given it as an objective, how do you get around that regardless of deployment? Hope that if you put everything on the Union left flank you can roll up Jackson and come at Longstreet on the heights from the south?

 

Without the ability to successfully flank the Confederates - an opportunity that was lost before the "battle" began - an assault through Fredericksburg is almost guaranteed to fail.

 

Once the Confederates were entrenched at Fredericksburg, the only viable option was to do what General Hooker did in the Chancellorsville campaign and execute another wide flanking maneuver. Of course, that failed for unrelated reasons but I stand by my supposition that regardless of deployment I have a hard time seeing how the Union can win a historical Fredericksburg.

 

But, since you are one of the testers and have likely seen this you would know better than I do, so perhaps there is a way in the construction of the game.

[Koro]

I won't discuss details here since I don't want to spoil it for people who want the experience of going in not knowing. 

You can check out my guide and send me a private message with your thoughts. 

[James Cornelius]

Thanks.

[Hitorishizuka]

42 minutes ago, Koro said:

Getting some insights in to the campaign:

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/fredericksburg/maps/fredericksburg-animated-map/

Great link. What a deeply mismanaged campaign.

Yes, I think Fredericksburg is winnable but you have to move fast, depending on the objectives and how long the game will let you fight. I would need to look at how the terrain is rendered in game but I think you want to not be stupid and just feint at the Confederate left while actually refusing that flank and shipping most of those forces to the center. Then on the Confederate right an actual supported concerted attack could make gains there and threaten to roll things up. There's potentially a gap to be taken advantage at the Confederate middle-right as well.

If you have to hold the Heights VP for victory that pretty much will instead force you to attack the center hard in order to roll both flanks in a timely manner. Not ideal but might be doable.

[Koro]

I think it's viable to go for the center first too. I'm looking forward to hearing how people will handle this. 

And yes, worst campaign ever. It's interesting how it's less the battle that fails but the whole campaign itself. The battle is just the inevitable end result. 

Did anyone ever call off a campaign before it went wrong like this? Burnside should have gone home. 

[A. P. Hill]

8 hours ago, James Cornelius said:

Fredericksburg has me wondering just if it truly will be possible to beat as the Union without horrific casualties. If you are locked in to Burnside's plan in any way, then I don't see a way to avoid it even if you do manage to seize Marye's Heights or the woods to the south. I can't help but wonder if a player might be better off to sit under the guns of Stafford Heights, incur few if any casualties, and simply take the defeat for not contesting the map. You lose the prestige points, but if your army is not damaged in any way, the reward would still allow one to strengthen further for Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.

The point is ... that as Union, you don't attack Mayre's Heights.  Send all your forces to overwhelm Jackson's Corps.

[James Cornelius]

5 hours ago, Koro said:

Burnside should have gone home. 

Burnside was a terrible general, that is true. But I will give the man credit for one thing: he knew he was in over his head and protested upon being given command of the army. The only reason he took it, was because Hooker was next in line and the two hated each other; Burnside did not want Hooker to take command, let alone serve under him.

 

I'm sure when we get to Chancellorsville we'll have a further discussion about the merits of, as Robert E. Lee sarcastically called him, "Mr. F.J. Hooker". However, I would point out that Hooker was a better general than he is remembered and, with the exception of Chancellorsville (a notable exception, to be sure), he gave quite good service. Even at Chancellorsville, I think the Army of the Potomac could have given has good as it got if Hooker hadn't lost his nerve (which was possibly due to the shell blast which incapacitated him).

Edited December 15, 2016 by James Cornelius

[vren55]

I'm kinda worried about the Fredericksburg campaign to be honest in light of my Union Army's result after Antietam. I've been winning all the battles in Union and I won Antietam, but I only had 57,000 men starting and lost 22,000, though I preserved all my brigades and inflict nearly 60% casualties on the confederates. Considering Burnside had 137,000 men and still lost to the 80,000 confederates... I honestly think my ass is about to get whooped.

[Hitorishizuka]

8 hours ago, Koro said:

Did anyone ever call off a campaign before it went wrong like this? Burnside should have gone home. 

Politically impossible. Lincoln just sacked McClellan for not being aggressive enough. Burnside would have been on a very short leash if not sacked immediately for not attacking with what was perceived a superior army.

2 hours ago, vren55 said:

I'm kinda worried about the Fredericksburg campaign to be honest in light of my Union Army's result after Antietam. I've been winning all the battles in Union and I won Antietam, but I only had 57,000 men starting and lost 22,000, though I preserved all my brigades and inflict nearly 60% casualties on the confederates. Considering Burnside had 137,000 men and still lost to the 80,000 confederates... I honestly think my ass is about to get whooped.

Unfortunately part and parcel of the AI auto-scaling/not taking losses problem. So long as you have veterans you can probably be okay even if you might have a problem with minimum necessary size.

[fallendown]

The best bet for the union would be to avoid Marye's heights all together and move down the railroad to attack Jackson. Of course then again Jackson's defense's during the actual battle were formidable. As a Fredericksburg native I can tell you that from Marye's Heights south to Prospect Hill is one long line of trenches. In fact our annual rennactment just ended yesterday with cannon firing in celebration. I could hear this 4 miles from town. 

There are really two options the union could take. The first is to move south and east of Fredericksburg along the RF&P Railroad and attack up Hazel Run and Deep Run against Pickett's and Hood's thinly spread brigades and split the Confederate center. The second is to actually move north and west and attack Anderson's Divion on his section of Marye's Heights. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by fallendown

[Koro]

9 hours ago, vren55 said:

I'm kinda worried about the Fredericksburg campaign to be honest in light of my Union Army's result after Antietam. I've been winning all the battles in Union and I won Antietam, but I only had 57,000 men starting and lost 22,000, though I preserved all my brigades and inflict nearly 60% casualties on the confederates. Considering Burnside had 137,000 men and still lost to the 80,000 confederates... I honestly think my ass is about to get whooped.

The AI also scales down with you, which is something people tend to forget. Not sure how far down though.

You'll get 20.000 from winning Antietam + another 15.000 or so from the side missions and you can also buy 8000 with reputation from the shop. If you really killed that many confederates, you should have lots of rifles in your inventory.

14 minutes ago, fallendown said:

The best bet for the union would be to avoid Marye's heights all together and move down the railroad to attack Jackson. Of course then again Jackson's defense's during the actual battle were formidable. As a Fredericksburg native I can tell you that from Marye's Heights south to Prospect Hill is one long line of trenches. In fact our annual rennactment just ended yesterday with cannon firing in celebration. I could hear this 4 miles from town. 

There are really two options the union could take. The first is to move south and east of Fredericksburg along the RF&P Railroad and attack up Hazel Run and Deep Run against Pickett's and Hood's thinly spread brigades and split the Confederate center. The second is to actually move north and west and attack Anderson's Divion on his section of Marye's Heights. 

There are lots of strategies to be employed. I assure you, going for the other two points is no cakewalk either. I tried going for the two southern points and it really requires a lot of thinking ahead and planning. I'll make a guide of that too after the battle is out if people have trouble assaulting Marye's Heights as I suggest.

[vren55]

4 hours ago, Koro said:

he AI also scales down with you, which is something people tend to forget. Not sure how far down though.

You'll get 20.000 from winning Antietam + another 15.000 or so from the side missions and you can also buy 8000 with reputation from the shop. If you really killed that many confederates, you should have lots of rifles in your inventory.

Phew! And yes, I did kill/rout that many confederates. 33 thousand out of their 55 thousand.  It helped that I managed this on my 2nd try.

And also, yes, I do think that the only way to win Fredericksburg is to not try to attack the town and Mayre's heights. Just hit them where Jackson is and probably right through the swamp.

[Andre Bolkonsky]

19 hours ago, vren55 said:

I'm kinda worried about the Fredericksburg campaign to be honest in light of my Union Army's result after Antietam. I've been winning all the battles in Union and I won Antietam, but I only had 57,000 men starting and lost 22,000, though I preserved all my brigades and inflict nearly 60% casualties on the confederates. Considering Burnside had 137,000 men and still lost to the 80,000 confederates... I honestly think my ass is about to get whooped.

The one thing you have going for you is you're not Burnside! 

Hell of a guy by all accounts. Not much of a soldier. Impressive whiskers, though. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Andre Bolkonsky

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

On 12/14/2016 at 11:51 AM, Koro said:

Fredericksburg guide 
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817532018

Hey buddy the link didn't work for me

[Koro]

The guide doesn't function since the map had to be cut in pieces due to performance issues, so I deleted it

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

Oh no!  Post the text at least somewhere I'd be curious to learn your approach to this difficult battle as the Union.

[Koro]

It's completely gone unfortunately.  You can find the screenshots on my profile in steam.

If you choose to go for prospect Hill, you can send 6-7 brigades as a distracting corps to the very edge of the map at the south and draw the AI forces there. Keep everyone else in reserve. Then once the engagement start close to the vp, you can gate crash the center and go for the small clearing and get behind them at the Vp. 

Maryes Heights can be taken 1 entrenchment at a time, storm in to melee with as many brigades as possible. If you didn't get for prospect Hill, you should have stationed your troops to the north instead and when the map opens up you can now make a combined assault on telegraph road from the front and flank 

[Koro]

Oh go for the left entrench mention first, most vulnerable one. 

[Don't Escrow Taxes]

I'm assuming we can expect a Let's Play on this for your YouTube channel eventually eh? 

[Koro]

Yes, I've been delaying that for too long. Coming up after new years, pinky swear.