Campaign or extended scenarios?

[jdkbph]

Hi all. I have been following along here for a while now and it looks like things are coming together nicely. I was wondering however, from a game play perspective, whether or not campaign or extended scenario (eg, several months to years) play was being considered.

 

The reason I ask is that, as exctting as it is, ship vs ship tactics at the squadron or fleet level typically played only a minor role in the outcome of a given action. For the most part, the decisive factors were effective combination (in the sense that historians/strategists such as Clowes, James or Mahan used the term) at the stategic/operational level, and of course training and experience at the tactical level.

 

Are these planned elements for this game... either at release or at some point in the future?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

JD

[Edward Vernon]

I honestly don't know, but from all I have read here so far, I expect so, but not immediately.

[Destraex]

there will be an open world and there will be npc ships. But i do not know about a story other than the one you make yourself.

[jdkbph]

Are the devs monitoring these forums at all?

 

JD

[Leviathan]

Yes, the devs monitor and actively post/reply to messages. This is their forum after all.

 

Sometimes they miss a post due to the high volume of questions and responses. I don't think much has been mentioned about a long term campaign but some of those details have yet to be revealed. Right now they are deep in this next patch trying to get it out to all the pre-orders for further testing.

[Mirones]

and it will take some time untill the AI is usefull

[jdkbph]

OK cool. Thanks

 

A couple of other questions... if anyone knows or in case the devs happen to see this and can respond:

 

Are compass directions used to maneuver the ships? If so, how many points are on the compass?

 

Also, is variable leeway, the differing abilities of individual ships to point up into the wind, or other sailing quality factors accounted for (eg, some ships were known to sag more than others; also may depend on the condition of the bottom as well as current trim and rig)?

 

Thanks

[Edward Vernon]

16 points on a compass, therefore each is 22.5 degrees. As for your other questions I will leave that to a current tester who will be able to answer I am sure....

[Mirones]

currently you cant click on the compas and the ship turns there like in SH leeway not sure devs said there where non unless you have an bad drunk helmsman who cant compensate leeway. Sailing characteristics depends allready on the rigging.

Lynx and the Naval Cutter and soon the Mortar brig(from looking at the rigging) are good sailing Beam reach.

[jdkbph]

16 points on a compass, therefore each is 22.5 degrees. As for your other questions I will leave that to a current tester who will be able to answer I am sure....

 

Well, that's unfortunate. And it explains this....

 

 

currently you cant click on the compas and the ship turns there like in SH leeway not sure devs said there where non unless you have an bad drunk helmsman who cant compensate leeway. Sailing characteristics depends allready on the rigging.

Lynx and the Naval Cutter and soon the Mortar brig(from looking at the rigging) are good sailing Beam reach.

 

... as well.

 

Either someone has not done their home work, or... and hopefully it's the "or"... this is just the result of work in progress and not indicative of the final product (eg, that screen shot of a ship carrying a mizzen course AND a driver at the same time!).

 

Thank you both for the replies.

 

JD

[Saintduiex]

Also, is variable leeway, the differing abilities of individual ships to point up into the wind, or other sailing quality factors accounted for (eg, some ships were known to sag more than others; also may depend on the condition of the bottom as well as current trim and rig)?

 

Might want to have a look at this post with discussion on leeway  http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/1703-the-sailing-simulation/

 

Lots of good info already posted across the forums that you may want to look/search through that may answer any other questions that you might have  

[jdkbph]

YIKES!

 

Thanks for the pointer.

 

This...

 

We know what we want of the product and leeway is not going to be implemented.. Constantly holding your rudder or trim in a certain position to compensate for drift.. is boring as hell. It is a fake feature: leeway is managed by your helmsman and your sailmaster and first lieutenant know how to trim the sails and place the ballast the right way. It brings no depth and no meaningful choice, thus can be safely thrown out.

 

... is scary. Is this a dev or game designer saying this? If so, home work just ain't in it (as they say). This is a complete misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what leeway is and what it's effects on fleet actions (or in some cases even single ship actions) might be.

 

I'm totally on board with the idea that this is not a sailing simulator, but that does not mean that you cannot model the effects of certain characteristics. For instance, having only 16 points to work with completely washes out the difference between a weatherly ship (ie, one that can lie, say,6 points off the wind) and a sluggard (ie, one that has trouble sailing 7 points off the wind).

 

The Leeway example, I would have thought, would be a no brainer. Leeway is NOT the ability of a helmsman to "luff up and touch her" on demand. It is the leeward drift of the ship with the wind on the beam and has little to do with the course steered by the helmsman. This is particularly critical when a line of ships are close hauled and there is a significant difference in sailing qualities between the ships in the line. Even the best sailers with an expert at the helm will only point up into the wind so far... but no helmsman can compensate for leeward drift when already close hauled.

 

Consider the Franco-Spanish line at Trafalgar. Sailing qualities of some of the ships (eg, leeway) and inexperience are two of the primary reasons why it was sagging so far to leeward in the center. Obviously this placed the entire formation at a severe disadvantage, with those farthest to leeward unable to support those to windward.

 

It's true that no previous naval combat game set in this era has attempted to model these types of factors. And in my opinion, that is why they have ALL failed. I hope the devs/designers look a little deeper into what really happened and why and find a way to translate that into their game. And in case a more obvious hint is needed... Stay away from the Errol Flynn movies and Captain X novels, and pay more attention to Clowes, James, Clerk (of Eldin), and the Fighting Instructions for a clue to what it was all about.

 

JD

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Hear hear!

Differing leeway abilities amongst different ships is an extremely important factor in this era!

[Edward Vernon]

I am afraid JD you are a little in error because leeway is precisely a function of a ships ability to point as well as all it's other characteristics. If you can point 10 degrees higher the shape and area of the vessel and it's sails is reduced in relation to the true wind and the amount of leeway generated is therefore less. I think what the devs are saying here is that, for now, you ain't getting leeway because it is really too insignificant in the grand scheme of things when there are many more burning and significant issues to resolve and code. If you feel THAT strongly about leeway then maybe you are in the wrong place, because this surely ISN'T a sailing sim.....

[jdkbph]

Your opinion is noted. However, you may want to read what I wrote more closely. I think you'll find that my (rather pointed use of the word) "little", as in "has little to do with..." exactly cancels out your "little", as in "a little in error".

 

 

And as I said, I know this isn't a sailing sim. I'm not interested in a sailing sim, nor am I advocating for sailing simulation elements. I'm interested in a tactical/operational/(and wouldn't it be nice if) Strategic treatment of naval warfare in the golden age of sail. In order to do that you need to accurately account for the qualities of the various actors and factors.

 

In flight sim vs air combat war game terms (eg Falcon 4 or DCS series vs CMANO or CY6), this would be the equivalent of recognizing that while you are not modelling wing loading and drag coefficients in a war game, you will still want to account for relative turn radius, climb rate, speed, acceleration, etc, or the quantifiable effects there-of, between opposing aircraft in order to determine advantage in, say, a dog fight scenario.

 

Unfortunately, where it comes to this particular subject, I find that those with only a causal interest rarely possess a solid grasp of the nuances and critical factors involved, and so tend to dismiss them with trite comments.

 

There is one other thing I would like to point out in defense of my assertions: You mentioned that relative aspect presented to the wind influences leeway. Indeed it does... as a matter of fact it would influence all ships in a line to a more or less equal degree, which is exactly my point. As I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain, this becomes a key factor when sailing close hauled in a line of battle. A poor sailer will still sag further to leeward than a good sailer. It's simple, but very significant... in a wargame-y sort of way.

 

JD

[Edward Vernon]

JD...you are correct I missed the word little in your post I referenced, although I would still contend little is underselling it somewhat, but that is a matter of opinion and you are entitled to yours as I am to mine. However I would point out that your rather petulant (IMHO of course) and thinly disguised snipe in my direction in your third paragraph is both mean spirited and unwarranted. Before throwing such accusations around you may want to know better those to whom you address such comments. After 22 years at sea as a professional mariner and as a Qualified Ocean Yachtmaster (albeit not in square riggers) I believe that I DO actually have a solid grasp of the nuances and critical factors involved. I have no intention of being at odds with anyone on these forums and hope that you feel the same. I make no judgement of your skills or knowledge and look forward to meeting you on the high seas where we can put ourselves to the ultimate test.

[jdkbph]

Fair enough. Most fair as a matter of fact. Apologies if you felt a "snipe" was directed at you. It may well have been a snipe, but directed at what I perceive to be the reason why no age of sail game has yet done justice to the subject. The trite comment - perhaps dismissive is a better word - I referred to is within the quote in post 12.

 

Anyway...

 

Given your experience, you will know that some of the things involved here are far from intuitive. Few fall within the day to day experience of most people. And exposure to them, where there's any at all, seems to come mainly from movies and novels. It is a source of much frustration to me that one of my favorite subjects, the object of countless hours/days/months/years of study, are mistreated in this manner. I don't think it is so farfetched to hope for better. Flight simulators exhibit a level of detail and veracity that far outstrips anything that has ever been done for a naval sail war game. If someone were to apply the same rigor to the research and design of a naval sail war game I think even I might be satisfied. I was hoping this might be it. These things don't come around very often any more.

 

JD

 

PS just to clarify... I'm using flight sims only as an example of what kind of detail is possible in an entertainment software package. I'm not suggesting that this game should contain simulation elements.

[Edward Vernon]

Thanks JD for your response. You are a man of reason and integrity I perceive.

 

I wonder if perhaps the more detailed "sim" element of flight sims is because essentially there are  less moving parts on a plane as opposed to an "Age of Sail" ship and it is therefore somewhat easier to model. I really don't know, just a thought. I feel your frustration and I sense many people here would agree that, in an ideal world, we would like more detail such as individual sail setting and trimming etc. and that would include modelling leeway and a whole host of other things.

 

However I guess we have to be pragmatic, in the first instance the game needs to make money to allow for future development and there seems to be little or no intent at this stage to have any form of microtransactions, thus it needs to be accessible to as wide an audience as possible, many of whom may be put off by a more detailed sailing model even falling short of a true sim. So my hope is that over time, once the game is established, we may get the more detailed model as an option, to be turned on or off according to taste.

 

But....... we are here, at the start of something I think could be absolutely brilliant, the devs seem to listen very closely to their customers and I am sure if we can make a strongly reasoned, coherent argument in the fullness of time we may get what we yearn for. Patience as a virtue is always in short supply when it is regard to a passion, I am sure mine will be tested. However I am here for the long haul, hopefully for the better rather than the worse.

 

Yours Aye

[Saintduiex]

And THAT is how disagreements and discussions among reasonable adults is conducted!!

:::applause:::

 

Thank you both for that lesson and reminder and, more importantly, the naked passion of sailing that you both bring to the forums which hopefully one day will translate into bringing these enhanced aspects and features into the game!